Did they lie, or what? If what they brought is "honor and integrity", what is the definition of distortions, distractions, dishonor, and lies?
What person in this country, that is not out of their frigging minds, can look at you with a straight face and say they have restored "honor and integrity" to the White House? At least, he hasn't got a blow job, they say. As far as we know, Condi has not been down on her knees shining his knob. The White House is now reserved for plans on how to kill the enemy and how to manipulate all the simple-minded patriots that love their country.

they said they would bring honor and integrity back to the white house
The real question is: was there any in the first place?

This whole Plame crap is a bunch of BS. The law regarding the "outing" of CIA operatives only applies to operatives under cover in foriegn countries who would be endangered by such an outing. Plame was and had been a desk jockey for years. Anyway, I thought the stupid independent counsil statute had been killed, who resurected it?

Regarding the Intelligence Identities Protection Act, there's a five year margin period required for serving or having served covertly overseas. Valerie Plame was an NOC operative, and a specialist in W. M. D. Until she was outed. She posed as a consultant for an ambiguous energy firm called Brewster Jennings & Associates, a CIA front company. So not only was her network exposed along with other NOCs affiliated with BJ&A, but also any contacts the CIA acquired through BJ&A would, in their proper countries, be spy suspects.

"Although Val started off with official cover, she later joined a select group of intelligence officers a few years later when she became a NOC, i.e. a Non-Official Cover officer. That meant she agreed to operate overseas without the protection of a diplomatic passport. She was using cover, which we now know because of the leak to Robert Novak, of the consulting firm Brewster-Jennings. When she traveled overseas she did not use or have an official passport. If she had been caught engaged in espionage activities while traveling overseas without the black passport she could have been executed." — Larry C. Johnson, colleague.

Anyway, Plamegate is now a whole lot more than the exposure of an agent's identity — it's about the exposure of the WH properganda machine and its lies to the world, so very burlesquely spotlighted via Judith Miller and the NYT. Finally, America is waking up. Hope the momentum won't be crushed this time 'round.

There have been numerous posts and topics here about "lying" and "dishonesty" and almost everyone that posted can/does justify lying and dishonesty. How can one justify lying and dishonesty in their own lives, yet feel so horrified about lying by only a few?

Baron Max

No one dies when we lie, Baron.

No one dies when we lie, Baron.

Oh, really? Or do you only know it AFTER the lie has been told? And if you know it before hand, please explain how you can know for sure?

Also, Spider, I've noticed that many "lies" that have been posted here at the site are foundless accusations ....which could well send someone to prison. Does that not come under the heading of "harmful" to others??

Baron Max

I don't represent the United States of America in any official capacity, those who do should be held to high standards of honesty with regard to official business.

How can one justify lying and dishonesty in their own lives, yet feel so horrified about lying by only a few?

Because us little peons don't run a country. If those that run the country can lie about certain things, who's to say they don't lie about even more important issues? The effect of their lies are more greater on others than our little lies. Most of us are unknowns to the world with little power. Those in charge aren't. They need to be more careful in what they do because there's a lot more at stake and we can be put in greater jeopardy than if any ol' Tom, Dick, or Harry did the same.

- N

They did bring Honor and Integrity to the White House. They're still there, too, buried in the back yard.

I don't represent the United States of America in any official capacity, those who do should be held to high standards of honesty with regard to official business.

Higher standards? Why? Isn't it one of the base principles that our elected officials be "a part of" our society? I'm afraid that ye're just throwing out bullshit in the hopes that it will stick to something!! ...LOL!

Baron Max

Because us little peons don't run a country. If those that run the country can lie about certain things, who's to say they don't lie about even more important issues? The effect of their lies are more greater on others than our little lies. Most of us are unknowns to the world with little power. Those in charge aren't. They need to be more careful in what they do because there's a lot more at stake and we can be put in greater jeopardy than if any ol' Tom, Dick, or Harry did the same.

Interesting. Ye're doing nothing but justifyiing your own lies, yet holding others to a higher standard. How can you do that and still keep a straight face about it? Or is hypocrisy just so normal for you that you failed to even think about what ye're saying?

Baron Max

OK, so do you believe it's OK for politicians to lie as long as it's for a good purpose?

No! No one on Earth should ever lie ....and if that were the case, we'd have a lot less conflict in the world.

But you, as well as most, seem to love to justify your own lies, while holding all others to the high standard. You can't have it both ways, Spider, things, the world and society just doesn't work that way .......and you know it!

Baron Max

What did I ever lie about?

I thought you were one who posted on the "Honesty" topic, trying to justify lying? If not ....I don't know. That's what I was referring to ....NOT any lie that you might have told on this site.

Baron Max

I don't think that was me. I endeavor at all times to be as honest as possible. I'm here to learn. If I'm wrong I want to know.

I still say this is a bunch of BS. The independent counsel statute should be trashed. It is basically a license to "get" the president. You take some guy and make it his purpose in life to find something, anything, on a given administration and he will. As evidenced by the case of Ken Starr given the job of investigating a land deal and ending up with Clinton being impeached over a few blow jobs. Now this Plame crap is "about much more". Judging by Bush's performance of late, this is clearly a major distraction. While the administration is consumed with possible indictments over penny-ante crap, al-Qada may be sneaking a nuke over the border.

concerning the governments "lies" i am sure that the guv has lied but only to it's enemies. the guv is also a dictator ditto the polio vaccine, nobody asked me or you if we wanted it it was "forced" on us and you don't hear one word about it.the guv doing that without our knowledge and consent is really scarey.

There have been numerous posts and topics here about "lying" and "dishonesty" and almost everyone that posted can/does justify lying and dishonesty. How can one justify lying and dishonesty in their own lives, yet feel so horrified about lying by only a few?

Baron Max

Interesting, 2 months ago you zealously defended the innocence of America's leaders, but now you're bringing up some "Judge not, lest ye be judged" bullshit.

Get a life man, your posts here are segregating what little positive opinion in America the rest of the world has.

As far as the facts behind the lying jazz and all that, I don't understand why these people get into power in such numbers. Theres supposed to be a system that prevents this, but has been corrupted for the past 30 years and no one seems to have cared.

I think undermining the war on terror for a political purpose amounts to treason, what could be more important? Isn't the judicial branch supposed to be a check on executive power?

No! No one on Earth should ever lie ....and if that were the case, we'd have a lot less conflict in the world.

But you, as well as most, seem to love to justify your own lies, while holding all others to the high standard. You can't have it both ways, Spider, things, the world and society just doesn't work that way .......and you know it!

Baron Max

I am sure that when your wife asks you, "Does this dress make me look fat?", you wind up sleeping on the couch. I do the wise thing. I run away screaming and waving my arms in the air.

I still say this is a bunch of BS. The independent counsel statute should be trashed. It is basically a license to "get" the president. You take some guy and make it his purpose in life to find something, anything, on a given administration and he will. As evidenced by the case of Ken Starr given the job of investigating a land deal and ending up with Clinton being impeached over a few blow jobs. Now this Plame crap is "about much more". Judging by Bush's performance of late, this is clearly a major distraction. While the administration is consumed with possible indictments over penny-ante crap, al-Qada may be sneaking a nuke over the border.

A major distraction for whom? Bill Clinton gave our nuclear secrets to the Chinese. After that, being impeached for lying about having sex with someone is like getting away with a ticket for illegal parking after parking your SUV on the bloody remains of a Girl Scout troop.

Clinton didn't give away any nuclear secrets to the Chinese.

Edit:
And he was aquitted of all impeachment charges.

Let us take a tour back in time and see America in its birth. Consider someone such as Washington himself: a strict but gentle general, a man concerned with fine decorating and proper physical upkeeping. See how he fought in battle and gave up absolute power just to enshrine his belief in democracy. See how selfless he was by creating his 110 Rules that he himself lived by just to make himself more accessible and decent to society.

Now fast forward to the future, where presidents obtain oral sex, get their pictures taken just for publicity and speak in riddles and vague notions that most cannot understand. Many of them, such as our recent president, cannot even speak proper english.

Whatever honor or integrity existed in the white house died a long time ago, well before the New Deal and the take over of neo-cons and closet communist liberals. It is my conviction that it died after Jefferson.

Interesting. Ye're doing nothing but justifyiing your own lies, yet holding others to a higher standard. How can you do that and still keep a straight face about it? Or is hypocrisy just so normal for you that you failed to even think about what ye're saying?

Where'd I justify my own lies? But yes, I am holding others (not normal people, but the leaders who run this country) to a higher standard. Even a 5 year old could tell the difference in power and importance of the president. To think his lies aren't more important or damaging than the average joe's is silly. So yes, a higher standard should be had.

- N

A major distraction for whom? Bill Clinton gave our nuclear secrets to the Chinese. After that, being impeached for lying about having sex with someone is like getting away with a ticket for illegal parking after parking your SUV on the bloody remains of a Girl Scout troop.
He was distracted from doing his job properly, but some things, like treason, Clinton makes time for no matter how distracted he may be.

This whole Plame crap is a bunch of BS. The law regarding the "outing" of CIA operatives only applies to operatives under cover in foriegn countries who would be endangered by such an outing. Plame was and had been a desk jockey for years.desk jockey or not, anyone with integrity would never 'out' a CIA agent, goes for Novak too,

the bigger issue is; what were their motives? if just to discredit Wilson, bad judgment, about as bad as going to war in Iraq over WMD, which I hear they finally found (in N. Korea, Pakistan, Iran)

hoooweee,
let’s go to war, I see
bombs are dropping from the sky,
WMD's in my eye,
Bush is to integrity,
what Clinton was to fidelity

stomp your feet,
to the Western beat,
yahooooo!!!
awoooooo!!!
Cities burning through the night
Get your guns we’re off to fight!!!


That just needed a country/western song, just need a title

A major distraction for whom? Bill Clinton gave our nuclear secrets to the Chinese. you mean microchip & missile guidance technology? our capitalists have made a pack with the devil, trying to cash in on a billion-person market, only they forgot that it’s easier to copy & pirate after you learn how to make things, & the devil don’t care if it's "made in China"

plus how about that out-sourcing? still got a job here in the good ol' USA?

He was distracted from doing his job properly, but some things, like treason, Clinton makes time for no matter how distracted he may be.

What exactly did Clinton do that classifies itself as "treason". He wasn't the one that helped set-up an attack on america's on soil that ended up killing 3,000 americans!