simply put, as a general rule i find that the average theist is selfish, he does good for reward of heaven and fear of hell. not because of the good deed itself but instead because of reward and or punishment.

the atheist does not believe in punishment or reward for good deeds, therefore the good deeds he does are not motivated by a reward in the afterlife.

but the atheist will ofcourse be selfish for reward in this life or punishment in this life, like everybody else.

so conclusion in gods eyes if he exists, is that he will look better upon the atheist who does good deeds for the sake of goodness, instead of the theist who is acting upon selfish grounds.


maybe only atheists get into heaven.



peace.

Seems about right to me. Although i dont think you can say this about all theists.

no thats why i said "as a general rule" and "the average theist" because their is always exceptions.


peace.

maybe only atheists get into heaven.


I like this one. I think a logical God would reward people that think for themselves and dont engage in any blind faith.

I like this one. I think a logical God would reward people that think for themselves and dont engage in any blind faith.

yeah i have said this all along, if god were to exist he would respect the agnostic and atheist mentality more than radical religious type. especially the people who fight wars in his name, he must think "what a bunch of dicks".

nobody respects a sheep, most people respect the lion. and if we were created by a god, doesent anybody think that he would want us to be free thinkers? who try to figure out the universe and explore it?. not sit down and worship him and stay in the dark ages?


to me its logical that god would respect people who were nice to others because they think its best, not because they fear the wrath of god and his hellfire.

now thats irony, if all athiests and agnostics went to heaven, and all the theists got sent to hell for being dumbasses.


peace.

yeah i have said this all along, if god were to exist he would respect the agnostic and atheist mentality more than radical religious type. especially the people who fight wars in his name, he must think "what a bunch of dicks".

nobody respects a sheep, most people respect the lion. and if we were created by a god, doesent anybody think that he would want us to be free thinkers? who try to figure out the universe and explore it?. not sit down and worship him and stay in the dark ages?


to me its logical that god would respect people who were nice to others because they think its best, not because they fear the wrath of god and his hellfire.

now thats irony, if all athiests and agnostics went to heaven, and all the theists got sent to hell for being dumbasses.


peace.

It would be too funny :D
God should let us be free thinkers and only give us some advice every once in while so we dont screw up.

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. - Romans 3:19

It is not your obedience to God that is valued and rewarded, it is the purity of yout heart, thoughts and actions.

It would be too funny :D
God should let us be free thinkers and only give us some advice every once in while so we dont screw up.

well he cant come down and tell us the advice in person in a public setting, because it would take the mystery out of life. the game would be over, but then again the way he could send us a message and not completely ruin it, is to send down maybe somebody like jesus or a buddha to guide us in the right path.


but ofcourse we wouldent all listen to that.


peace.

but ofcourse we wouldent all listen to that.


peace.

Of course.
He sent me, but no one listens to me.

It is not your obedience to God that is valued and rewarded, it is the purity of yout heart, thoughts and actions.


if only more theists listened to advice like this. but still a reward should not be needed for the true of heart. you should be kind and good to tohers even without reward.

peace.

Of course.
He sent me, but no one listens to me.

i do.

peace.

Of course.
He sent me, but no one listens to me.

I will listen to you oh mighty one. :worship:

well he cant come down and tell us the advice in person in a public setting, because it would take the mystery out of life. the game would be over, but then again the way he could send us a message and not completely ruin it, is to send down maybe somebody like jesus or a buddha to guide us in the right path.


but ofcourse we wouldent all listen to that.


peace.

I always wondered why that is. Why would it spoil anything when God comes down here and tells us what to do ?? I dont get that, i think it would be great.

simply put, as a general rule i find that the average theist is selfish, he does good for reward of heaven and fear of hell. not because of the good deed itself but instead because of reward and or punishment.

the atheist does not believe in punishment or reward for good deeds, therefore the good deeds he does are not motivated by a reward in the afterlife.

but the atheist will ofcourse be selfish for reward in this life or punishment in this life, like everybody else.

so conclusion in gods eyes if he exists, is that he will look better upon the atheist who does good deeds for the sake of goodness, instead of the theist who is acting upon selfish grounds.


maybe only atheists get into heaven.



peace.

Atheists don't really care about good and bad in general, they just live their lives the way they want, like I remember when I was a kid this atheist once tried to convince to lie a lot, he said there was no God and nothing would happen, I also remember this other atheist tricked me when I was a kid saying "I swear to God" then saying "haha I don't believe in God" so he broke his promise...

Plus, in most religions, when you do good your supposed to do without expecting any results, without any attachment, otherwise no good karma will come out of it...also your karma bears fruit in this lifetime as well as the next...

yeah i have said this all along, if god were to exist he would respect the agnostic and atheist mentality more than radical religious type. especially the people who fight wars in his name, he must think "what a bunch of dicks". And this would be the same omniscient, omnipotent creator deity that knew what we would do before he created us, and so knew which ones would be a "bunch of dicks" before he created them?

Wow.

Nice.

Atheists don't really care about good and bad in general, they just live their lives the way they want, like I remember when I was a kid this atheist once tried to convince to lie a lot, he said there was no God and nothing would happen, I also remember this other atheist tricked me when I was a kid saying "I swear to God" then saying "haha I don't believe in God" so he broke his promise...

Plus, in most religions, when you do good your supposed to do without expecting any results, without any attachment, otherwise no good karma will come out of it...also your karma bears fruit in this lifetime as well as the next...

You have the same kind of people that are theist only they cant expose themselves that easily. For instance the priests that molest little kids... :mad:

I always wondered why that is. Why would it spoil anything when God comes down here and tells us what to do ?? I dont get that, i think it would be great.

because if he created a planet with life on it and humans to survive alone without him, we are on an adventure of exploration and understanding, if he came down we would basicaly know that god exists and created the universe. taking all the mystery out of existence and "how everything was created"

if he was going to interact with us he might aswell have not seperated us to begin with. its kind of pointless and would ruin the whole mystery.

peace.

because if he created a planet with life on it and humans to survive alone without him, we are on an adventure of exploration and understanding, if he came down we would basicaly know that god exists and created the universe. taking all the mystery out of existence and "how everything was created"

if he was going to interact with us he might aswell have not seperated us to begin with. its kind of pointless and would ruin the whole mystery.

peace.

Hm ok we have a different view on things i guess. To me it is pointless as it is now. I think there would be no harm in 'losing the mystery' because God showed himself.
Also, i think it would do a lot of good to humanity. Wars would no longer be fought and people would actually work on the environment etc.
As improbable as it may be, an existing God (and one that shows himself on top of that) would be a good thing for humanity and the world in general. In my opnion at least.

Atheists don't really care about good and bad in general, they just live their lives the way they want, like I remember when I was a kid this atheist once tried to convince to lie a lot, he said there was no God and nothing would happen, I also remember this other atheist tricked me when I was a kid saying "I swear to God" then saying "haha I don't believe in God" so he broke his promise...

Plus, in most religions, when you do good your supposed to do without expecting any results, without any attachment, otherwise no good karma will come out of it...also your karma bears fruit in this lifetime as well as the next...


many atheists are good to people, because they believe they only have one life to live. so make others happy for that short time, i also thik the same thing. if we only live once without an afterlife then being nice to people and getting along is important to me. because i dotn want to make peoples short existence any worse than it is. its a sad concept to behold, if we only live once then we better make life great for those around us while we can. there will be no punishment or reward from a higher force, but the reward is the joy others feel.


ofcourse im not an atheist or a theist, but i can see from both points of veiw, im an agnostic daoist. i dont know if there is reward or not. personaly i have not got the ability to know the truth. so is tand in the middle but i want happiness and peace for us all.


peace.

That's not how it happened in the Old Testament.
God showed up, told them what to do and how to live, and they still rejected him.
Maybe he gave up.

And this would be the same omniscient, omnipotent creator deity that knew what we would do before he created us, and so knew which ones would be a "bunch of dicks" before he created them?

Wow.

Nice.

i didnt say god was omni anything,

peace.

And this would be the same omniscient, omnipotent creator deity that knew what we would do before he created us, and so knew which ones would be a "bunch of dicks" before he created them?

Wow.

Nice.

With free will, he wouldn't have known, would he?

Hm ok we have a different view on things i guess. To me it is pointless as it is now. I think there would be no harm in 'losing the mystery' because God showed himself.
Also, i think it would do a lot of good to humanity. Wars would no longer be fought and people would actually work on the environment etc.
As improbable as it may be, an existing God (and one that shows himself on top of that) would be a good thing for humanity and the world in general. In my opnion at least.


but the mystery would be gone, life is not pointless now because we have got shit to uncover, philosophy to ponder, science to advance in, exploration to take place, and entertainment to give.

if god is watching us dont you think he wants somethign decent going on?, instead of a bunch of guys standing around saying "we know everything so why bother"


peace.

but the mystery would be gone, life is not pointless now because we have got shit to uncover, philosophy to ponder, science to advance in, exploration to take place, and entertainment to give.

if god is watching us dont you think he wants somethign decent going on?, instead of a bunch of guys standing around saying "we know everything so why bother"


peace.

No i mean life on a cosmic scale not personal lives. Everybody makes his own 'meaning of life'.
The perfect God i envision is a visible one that dont wants us to worship him but instead guides us where we could make a big errors (not on a personal level) and wants nothing in return.
That doesnt mean we will know everything.

many atheists are good to people, because they believe they only have one life to live. so make others happy for that short time, i also thik the same thing. if we only live once without an afterlife then being nice to people and getting along is important to me. because i dotn want to make peoples short existence any worse than it is. its a sad concept to behold, if we only live once then we better make life great for those around us while we can. there will be no punishment or reward from a higher force, but the reward is the joy others feel.


ofcourse im not an atheist or a theist, but i can see from both points of veiw, im an agnostic daoist. i dont know if there is reward or not. personaly i have not got the ability to know the truth. so is tand in the middle but i want happiness and peace for us all.


peace.
I don't really know ANY atheists who preach peace and goodness, they just want to live life without religion influencing them, live life the way they desire, many atheists are good people however, but they're not good because of atheism, they're good because of the environment they live in and psychological factors, just as with most people...

I don't really know ANY atheists who preach peace and goodness, they just want to live life without religion influencing them, live life the way they desire, many atheists are good people however, but they're not good because of atheism, they're good because of the environment they live in and psychological factors, just as with most people...

So why are you good ? Because of who you are or because of what you believe in ?
Btw. i consider myself a good person with good morals.

No i mean life on a cosmic scale not personal lives. Everybody makes his own 'meaning of life'.
The perfect God i envision is a visible one that dont wants us to worship him but instead guides us where we could make a big errors (not on a personal level) and wants nothing in return.
That doesnt mean we will know everything.

i imagine god to have a good sense of humour, and also like entertainment. we wouldent know everything, but we would know the greatest mystery and driving force for all science and philosophy, wich would mean philosophy and science would be hit hard and most likely die out.


peace.

I don't really know ANY atheists who preach peace and goodness, they just want to live life without religion influencing them, live life the way they desire, many atheists are good people however, but they're not good because of atheism, they're good because of the environment they live in and psychological factors, just as with most people...

i agree that atheist alone does not make you a good person. i know atheists who are utterly selfish and rude peole who are always depressed and low. but im saying theists in general seem to do good in fear of punishment and for rewards.

wich is not truley good.

peace.

i imagine god to have a good sense of humour, and also like entertainment. we wouldent know everything, but we would know the greatest mystery and driving force for all science and philosophy, wich would mean philosophy and science would be hit hard and most likely die out.


peace.

I guess im too much of an atheist... lol
I actually meant a God that just showed up, so didnt create anything ever. :shrug:
Nevermind :p

I guess im too much of an atheist... lol
I actually meant a God that just showed up, so didnt create anything ever. :shrug:
Nevermind :p


lol yeah well that god wouldent really be a god would he? he would jsut be some guy.


peace.

lol yeah well that god wouldent really be a god would he? he would jsut be some guy.


peace.

Yep, but he would be an all-knowing guy :D

So why are you good ? Because of who you are or because of what you believe in ?
Btw. i consider myself a good person with good morals.

Most people are good because of psychological factors and their environment...I don't think it's a good habit to constantly see things in terms of good and bad, if you destroy all these insecurities and defiling impulses then you will have the highest enjoyment, freedom, happiness, etc...and naturally be good, but not because you're thinking "I should be a good person" but because it's your natural nature, for instance even a seemingly mean and unkind person becomes nice when something good happens to them and they're happy...

It's just like Krishna says:
"One who has transcended material good and evil automatically acts in accordance with religious injunctions and avoids forbidden activities. The self-realized person does this spontaneously, like an innocent child, and not because he is thinking in terms of material good and evil" (SB 11.7.11)

You have the same kind of people that are theist only they cant expose themselves that easily. For instance the priests that molest little kids... :mad:

I dunno, if you look at it another way, those priests that molested little kids CAN expose themselves pretty easily.
:roflmao:

God showed up, told them what to do and how to live, and they still rejected him
IIRC, according to the bible, God showed himself to all of four people:
-Noah
-Moses
-Abraham
-Lot

yeah i have said this all along, if god were to exist he would respect the agnostic and atheist mentality more than radical religious type. especially the people who fight wars in his name, he must think "what a bunch of dicks".
I couldn't agree more

nobody respects a sheep, most people respect the lion. and if we were created by a god, doesent anybody think that he would want us to be free thinkers? who try to figure out the universe and explore it?. not sit down and worship him and stay in the dark ages?
Yep. I've thought about this before a'plenty. Why would a benevolent deity wave damnation of hell over his creations' heads to force them to worship him. That to me does NOT seem like the characteristic of a benevolent deity.

to me its logical that god would respect people who were nice to others because they think its best, not because they fear the wrath of god and his hellfire.
As Medicine Woman so eloquently put it in the past: some people are delusional.

I dunno, if you look at it another way, those priests that molested little kids CAN expose themselves pretty easily.
:roflmao:


LOL
.. hey thats not funny ;)

LOL
.. hey thats not funny ;)

it made me laugh pretty hard. maybe im sick :shrug:

peace.

I don't care why people do good, as long as they do it.

I don't think it's a good habit to constantly see things in terms of good and bad...

I dont.


...if you destroy all these insecurities and defiling impulses then you will have the highest enjoyment, freedom, happiness, etc...and naturally be good, but not because you're thinking "I should be a good person" but because it's your natural nature...

Im not perfect but i consider myself reasonably 'good'. Im doing my best to be a good person.


...for instance even a seemingly mean and unkind person becomes nice when something good happens to them and they're happy...

Ofcourse, its human nature. The subconscience idea is that other people want to make him happy more if he will be nice then. This is no point of argument as far as im concerned.


It's just like Krishna says:
"One who has transcended material good and evil automatically acts in accordance with religious injunctions and avoids forbidden activities. The self-realized person does this spontaneously, like an innocent child, and not because he is thinking in terms of material good and evil" (SB 11.7.11)

I cant say anything about that. I have insufficient knowledge about what Krishna teaches.

IIRC, according to the bible, God showed himself to all of four people:
-Noah
-Moses
-Abraham
-Lot

I know.
I was referring to the story of Moses.

In response to this original post, I've argued (and still do) that in at least the Christian religion; it is the self that is worshiped at the heart of the beliefs; claiming to be worshiping God, although it produces some genuine emotions and passions, is merely a very deceptive guise.

And VitalOne, certainly we could find examples of atheists like how you describe them, but we could also do the same for Christians who justify every wrongdoing by reasoning, "God will forgive me anyway." The point is, both of these representations are extremes and it is highly stereotypical and erroneous to assume all fall into these ends of the spectrum.

Well, everyone is ultimately selfish whether theist or atheist. Such is life.

Atheists don't really care about good and bad in general, they just live their lives the way they want, like I remember when I was a kid this atheist once tried to convince to lie a lot, he said there was no God and nothing would happen, I also remember this other atheist tricked me when I was a kid saying "I swear to God" then saying "haha I don't believe in God" so he broke his promise...
Kids do that. Religion at that age means precisely dick. I don't know a single kid that ever made promises without breaking one, especially in the cold harsh way of "haha I had my fingers crossed", that's just what kids do as they lack the maturity and mental capacity for anything else. For the record virtually everyone I knew at that age was a theist having been indoctrinated. Adults obviously act entirely differently.
If you're basing any opinions on that, you need help.

I actually think a lot of weather people become atheist or theist or act good or bad is programmed genetically. Basically our DNA has a huge impact on how we react with our environment.