I may be here for a while now, Schlorgibbarrrnt is running well late and I've got to do something constructive, otherwise I'll go mad waiting for him/her/hum.I'm not worried though, I've put out a coded message so it probably won't be long before I am contacted by a fellow Grrbwuintishinian, but in the meantime I am available for insight and wisdom into the entire cosmos as taught to me by the great masters of Grrbwuintishin.Although this isn't strictly legal I do command a certain amount of discretion and I'm not likely to turn you on to anything really spooky because you just simply wouldn't understand it anyway, well, not unless you understand Gfirrifusian fractal code - It's not normally taught east of the Thracudnwrrnjan central meridian, so I don't expect to have any problems with the Rolsd of Suctije or,'lawmakers' as you would simply describe them.
Anyway, take advantage of my presence and good offices and ask me your most profound questions on life, the universe and everything. I shall endeavour to answer in a way you will understand.

the have a word for people like you. lasy slackers. i'm not saying that i'm not one, but you could make up better words dude, i'm serious. cause dude, i'm like a expert on a bunch of stuff, and i've never herd of any of that shit.so, what are you, an alien, a god or what????? i dont get it? and some guy running late??? dont tell us that.




------------------
dexter

Hoyiugboiusboweu makes about as much sense as that gibberish you posted, tablariddim. You're either hitting the bong a little too hard, or you've watched way too much British comedy.

I'll take you seriously when you've replaced the batteries in your universal translator.

LMAO!!! :D :D :D

Duracell - Boom!!! - Booom !!!- Booom!!!

ehh.. ok.. uhrm...

Instead of we asking you about stuff. Why don't you post your take on it all. From start to finish, maybe not as detailed to begin with, but so that we can catch your drift and ask you from there..

I am waiting.

Somebody has disputed the idea of 'soul', so for him and for others who are sceptical I shall make an analogy, because apart from a mathematical formulae which would just go on forever, an analogy is the best way to describe such an intangible.
The soul or personal spirit is just a part of the great universal spirit which is totally connected and intergrated with every single atom in the universe, it evolves, re-invents and re-incarnates itself endlessly.
One analogy to re-incarnation is thus :
Take a body of water - a churning river, alive with the power of it's momentum - all the while this river exists, parts of it are 'dying' or evaporating. Though this isn't discernible to the eye,the water which has 'died' is usually reduced to its single atom status and it is carried by whatever atmospheric condition exists at the time to a new destination where it will join up with trillions of other atoms to create or add to another body of water.This body of water could be anything, from rising damp to an ocean, from an iceberg to a snowflake, from a virus to an alien.In any case it will either be within a life form or it will nourish it or it will provide a habitable environment for it to live in.
The soul behaves in an uncannily similar fashion. one analogy for the soul is thus:
If the organic brain/mind was related to an electronic computer, then you could say, that the brain/mind is programmed and conditioned by the sum of its experiences and that any notions of soul are purely illussory and based on fear or wishful thinking. A computer is programmed and configured by the sum of its maker and it's user.It can play music to you all day, it can offer you fantastic environments for you to play games in, it can do an abundance of things but, does it have a soul?
Yes, it does now, well almost.But its soul actually existed long, long before computers were even thought of. Yeah right!! I hear you say. But of course they have a soul now, the internet is the soul. That intangible quality which was never programmed or configured by either the maker or the user
except to simply enable its function.But the ordinary people who are the providers and the users of the 'net have been around a very long time.The internet is immortal, whatever is on it now will never die, it will simply evolve, as will the technology that provides it. It's nothing new when I say that in the not too distant future the internet will be as interactive and as real as a real living lifeform, the technology for this will exist as a microscopic brain implant and humans will be able to become 'as one' with the virtual universe,at will. This is a fact pre-emptied!
The soul is like a universal internet,it is invisible and unobtrusive until it's 'dialled up'.Some people who believe they have a soul are actually able to become as one with the real universe/God/whatever, the human mind cannot comprehend fully that which was never programmed into it and so therefore descriptions/assumptions of this type of phenomena are invalid and ambiguous ( I looked through a glass darkly )
but these people do tend to acquire very deep insights and wisdom, seemingly from nowhere.The spirit is everywhere, it is in every living thing and it is out of every living thing and it is outside of time.To quote from one your holy books, ' it always was, always is and always is to come'.Your individual soul is attached to the source of all things and to the end of all things.Your soul is outside of time!just like the 'net.Its just that its past and its future are invisible but, just like the'net every one of its experiences/actions may be recorded and stored.The 'net providers/operators do this to gain customer profiles by which way they can evolve their services to better attract new clients and capitalise on their knowledge.The spirit is always developing and evolving through the experiences of individual souls and is continually re-incarnating new souls which in essence have been configured by the previous ones - eventually, over time an entire sea change occurs to absolutely everything, changes which are directly but unwittingly caused by the souls themselves.
I'm sure you get the gist of it by now so I'll leave it at that for now...I'm a soooul man deden de da deden de da, a sooul man!

Sweeeeeeeet. Anything else from Zelphadingywoowu you'd care to share? Maybe something we haven't heard before.

Congratulations, you've just equated soul with meaning. I think you are still a bit aways from equating it with the self (which is the canonical form). So I'm not sure what your newly-conceptualized "soul" is trying to accomplish.

By the way, water is molecular, not atomic.

------------------
I am; therefore I think.

Sounds like you're trying to start another new age scientology based cult with the internet as your god.
This forum is for 'Aliens and Extraterestrials'.
I politely suggest you either move to the 'Religion' forum or basically p*ss off with that crap you print...." the internet has had a soul long before you or I were born??? " ...the sh*t just don't stop, does it??!!
I say this in the nicest possible way :)

Hey dexter:

like dude, do you like not know how to spell lazy or what dude?

i'm in honors spelling, 8th grade!!!! and i have a B!!!! that isnt too great but.... its kinda a start i guess... and i am a lazy dude, with nothing better to do with my time


that is all

------------------
dexter

Welcome, tablariddim... and thanks for the laugh.

Although I get the drift of your analogy (I think), I could not help but find some of your statements quite humorous.

For example:

This is a fact pre-emptied!

Perhaps it's just my strange sense of humor, but I found this statement to be hilarious!!! Did you mean to be funny? Or, was this just a typo?


[This message has been edited by truestory (edited November 09, 1999).]

Dexter,

Try not to pay attention to those people who TRY to make fun of you and who call you names. Since I believe that many of them already know your age (it's been stated in a number of your posts), I venture to guess that they just can't resist pickin' on little (younger) guys. It does not reflect poorly on your character, dexter, it reflects on theirs.

Have a Pepsi on me, man!

Yeah, I realised that water was molecular after I sent the message.Actually it's Schlorgibarrrnt who's the real brains on the team but since his radio got broken he's been stuck on Uranus.I hope he gets back real soon and then hopefully we can dish out some real science.' A fact pre-emptied', sounds pretty cute don't you think? ok, pompous and arrogant as well but, hey I'm only five feet high!By the way Dave, analogies do not a religion or cult make and what makes you think that aliens cannot have a concept of soul or spirit? I certainly do!
Boris, I'll try again. What I think I'm trying to say and this is just an outline,is
that lifeforms serve as conduits to streaming information to/from the universal spirit, every single thought and action by the lifeform is put to use by the u s which in turn evolves and shapes the universe to better suit those thoughts and deeds. I don't believe it's judgmental but I believe it can work very quickly when the collective needs/thoughts and actions are strong enough to move it.Just look back in history, to see how quickly nature can re-assert itself with rapidly evolved species of everything after huge natural disasters, such as meteor crashes and climate changes.Don't want to bore U guys if you want me to leave say so, I'll count the stays and the go's tomorrow so maybe we'll speak again.

tablariddim,

Nobody's trying to kick you out. But don't expect us to swallow anything unpleasant, either.

On the information note, I think you are hitting close to home. However, information is not passed on to some "higher spirit"; instead it is encoded in the structure of life itself. Across generations, it is encoded in evolving DNA, and within individual lifetimes (for higher animals), it is encoded within the ever-changing brain (as in the various forms of knowledge). You can fancy otherwise all you want, of course -- but such fancy will not help you study all the nitty-gritty details of information accumulation and transfer in the universe. Nor will it help you explore the dynamics of knowledge and memory within both healthy, and pathological, humans.

------------------
I am; therefore I think.

Tab......the diet soft drink, anyway,ya replace your damn duracells and maybe your doctors should tighten up the restraining straps and increase your thorazine. They have a word for this condition....called god syndrome,theres no time limit,no rush to get your 'information out' nothing. Like Boris said, what 'information' youve said has been known for centuries. Increase your meds and go back to sleep.Leave this board for the serious.

------------------
Eric Cooper

tablariddim,

You should stay. You are an interesting person but would you take a hint and cut out the crap?

------------------------------
By the way Dave, analogies do not a religion or cult make and what makes you think that aliens cannot have a concept of soul or spirit? I certainly do!
------------------------------

kay...when did I say Aliens didn't or couldn't have a concept of soul...actually.... at what stage in your post did you say that they did or could???
You can't leave now, this is getting too weird so don't you dare leave us hanging...I want to know where all this is leading ... after all - you have now mentioned aliens - so please continue..... :)

HEY pass the BONG!
Can't you guys see he is just trying to get a reaction. A form of self satisfaction perhaps?

------------------
The Belief that there is only one truth and that oneself is in possession of it
seems to me the depest root of all evil that is in the world
-Max Born

He?

Hmmmm... I took tab' to be one from the unisex species... Hence, the him/her/hum...

Hey, speaking of gender, do you believe that it is possible for a man to be trapped inside a woman's body and vice-versa? If so, then would gender be a function of the mind, the body, the spirit, two of the three, all of the above, or WHAT?

That or mental masturbation.

Hey, Oxygen... that was quick... were you responding to my post or the one above? :)

Wack wack wack... Where did that damn monkey go?!

No, you just got in there quick. ROFLMAO!

Have you seen 666's monkey?

truestory...who called dexter names? Who picked on dexter for being younger?

People who advertise laziness make me mad. You are not lazy if you walk around saying "im lazy, look at me im lazy," which is what dexter is doing. Dexter is obviously not lazy if he is taking the time and effort to post on this board. Unmotivated in school is perhaps a better term for him.

Hey Corp :)

A number of people have been cracking on him because they don't like his "spelling" and someone actually called him "Dimwit" the other day. He's in 8th grade for cryin' out loud! I'd would like it if the adults in question here could bring themselves to be a little more understanding and to be open to hearing what he has to say without being so concerned about and critical of his spelling. (Although, to his credit, he's not letting the nasty comments stifle his expression). I'd also like for us to be able to respond to dexter and each other with a bit more patience and kindness.

I have see a great many different, but interesting, minds on this board over the past couple of months. Unfortunately, I've also seen people leave after being treated poorly by others. So I guess, in a way, you could say that that's what makes me mad. :)

Oxygen,

I have seen many-a-monkey in my time... I grew up with six monkeys in the house... However, I do not believe that I have ever seen 666's monkey... :)

Truestory,
I believe that 666 and yourself are thinking of two different monkeys if you know what I'm saying.
If everyone found out that extraterrestrials do exist and they are visiting earth there would be a panic, make no mistake about that. Did everyone
forget about the radio broadcast that supports this?

Alien,

Who? What? Where? When? How? :)

Oops... tab' reminded me of another question... Why?

[This message has been edited by truestory (edited November 11, 1999).]

Dave,
when I put forward an analogy trying to describe a theory about the possible existence of a soul and its relationship to the universe, by mentioning a medium that I think we can all understand, ie, the internet.
Firstly, you completely missed the point 'cause you assumed I was trying to start up some kind of cult with the internet as, er 'god', ahem! you didn't even remark on my analogy concerning water and re-incarnation which was indeed a second theory
and if any of you 'searchers of truth (with meaning, or truth without meaning?'had read the whole piece correctly you would have put the two theories together and understood the general idea and that what I put forward is feasible as a possibility - I believe that parts of the answers to some very deep questions are staring us in the face because they are all around us and within us in nature.
Secondly, you personally told me to piss off
and stop writing that 4 letter word, because this forum was for aliens and et's and so I naturally assumed that you don't think that those lifeforms have any concept of, or questions relating to the soul. Because if they did, then this would indeed be the ideal forum for them to discuss it in, surely don't you think so Dave? I have not mentioned religion, faith or god but you are quick to jump to the wrong conclusion.
Boris,
you re-buff me with a clarity and pure scientific logic, which I find impressive!
However, if you were to direct part of your brilliant mind to a section more commonly known as , 'the inner you', you will begin to see a lot more than facts, figures and mathematics. Because no matter how much you try to learn from the physical realm you will never be able to understand, the 'why?'
The irony is that although you're willing to accept the possibility of multiverses and are able to picture our universe as the crest of a wave on top of a deep ocean of other universes, (which sounds like a multi dimensional infinitismal environment if ever I saw one) you simply refuse to accept the possibility of an ivisible or spiritual dimension that might be connected to ours.'Can your back see it's own shadow?'
I could go on but lifes too short and that is what drives me to understand why we have this brief experience of conciousness. Why are we here to be teased and tantalised by the wonders of the universe if it's not to ultimately conciously become as one with it,
learning how to, through countless re-incarnations and innumerable varieties of life!
Thanks for that moment of your time!

What broadcast? Did the monkey steal the tapes? (Naughty monkey. Now you must be spanked.)

Please tell me it isn't Art Bell. I'm not exactly a big fan of his...

Oxygen,

I knew someone would mention spanking that naughty primate sooner or later! :)

I believe Alien was referring to H.G. Wells' "War of the Worlds", which was long before Art Bell's radio program. Listen to Orson Welles' opening monologue:
http://earthstation1.simplenet.com/War_of_the_Worlds/ww02.wav

[This message has been edited by Searcher (edited November 11, 1999).]

Oxygen,

No, it was not Art Bell. I'm talking
about the old Orson Wells radio broadcast
about the martians landing on earth and all hell broke loose.

Well War of the Worlds was brodcasted such a long time ago. I don't belive it is very good mesuring stick to use for todays generation. Pepole were a tad bit more ignorant and willing to belive what they heard or read. Today the pepole have been openly lied to by not only thier politcal leaders, but the news media is blantly slanted and over hyped.

My monkeys on the lose, watch out he spits!

------------------
The Belief that there is only one truth and that oneself is in possession of it
seems to me the depest root of all evil that is in the world
-Max Born

tab..alphabet....
My last post invited you to stay!
What 4 letter word are you refering to?
now to the meat...
<hr>
"which was indeed a second theory and if any of you 'searchers of truth (with meaning, or truth without meaning?'had read the whole piece correctly you would have put the two theories together and understood the general idea and that what I put forward is feasible as a possibility "
<hr>
1. Maybe if you had been more accurate in your premise when posting instead of taking for granted we'd all understand what you are on about, it would have read correctly.
2. Present your hypothesis as a whole not in pieces - you shouldn't expect the reader to complete a jigsaw puzzle.
3. general - possible - feasible - any lamer than that??? I thought the topic title was 'the truth is here'... where?? where is it?? what truth?? you only present a possibility, but based on what??...
4. If you are including me in the group of 'searchers of truth', wrong again! If you can't show me a spaceship - part or whole, an alien body, live or dead, whole or part thereof don't bother. :)

666,
Regardless of who lies to us, if aliens made themselves known to the world how would people stay calm when many fear what they can't understand, many that simply are convinced its all hogwash,
many that believe its satan,many who do not want to even discuss the issue because it threatens them and this is not taking in to account any hostile actions the aliens may take. Think about it.

tablariddim,

It always comes down to the question of "why". Strangely enough, most people find it inconceivable that there in fact may be no "why". Our existence may indeed have no purpose whatsoever. We might just be organic pond scum whipped into funny patterns by the motion of the waves. Alternatively, there might be a purpose, or a reason, but not at all in a way we can possibly ever conceive.

On the other hand, when I think of "why", I tend to think of causes. When it comes to intelligent causation, meaning and intentionality come into play. However, nothing indicates that the universe originates from an intelligent source, or is governed by one. In fact, all of our science (by its mere existence and verifiability) seems to suggest that the universe is entirely mechanistic and at its most fundamental level devoid of all intelligence. It's like a computer program playing itself out, and we are nothing but fascinating bit patterns with peculiar functional properties. In such a universe, "why" becomes merely a synonym for "how". Reasons become identical with causes.

I find this perspective very plausible for many reasons. Besides being indicated by success of science, the mechanistic interpretation of the universe stands in a favorable contrast with a mentalistic one. It has been a notorious and unfailingly repeated mistake for humans to always ascribe their own qualities and properties to everything else around them. They used to attribute spirits, emotions, goals and intelligence to all sorts of inanimate objects, like the clouds, the trees, or the mountains. They also used to imbue various lower animals with human minds (American Indians still do that!) They also ended up believing that they are the center of the universe, and that the universe was created especially for them. Now, we are hearing oft-expressed views that alien intelligent organisms must for some reason resemble us, think like us, function like us, or have goals comprehensible by us. Fundamentally, the vast majority of people have always believed that the universe itself must have some kind of a mind to it (like God, perhaps). Viewed in this light, the theological musings seem like mere extensions of past fallacies. We are still projecting our own nature onto the world; we expect it to make sense to us from <u>our</u>, human, perspective. Why the world should be so accomodating is beyond me. In fact, since practically all anscient hypotheses about the universe have proven to be utter failures, I would be very surprised if the theological perspective turns out to be correct.

------------------
I am; therefore I think.

[This message has been edited by Boris (edited November 12, 1999).]

Alien-Back when War of the Worlds was first broadcast, people used to freak out if they saw Black people drinking out of the Whites Only fountain.

Assuming the ETs didn't land with their ray guns drawn, zapping everything in sight, I think most (not all) people would be more curious and astonished instead of fearful. After all these years of Sci-fi movies with their alien makeup getting more and more realistic, I think we're pretty jaded.

Do you remember 'Alien Nation'? (Don't get any ideas! :D) One of the actresses went out into LA in alien makeup just to see the reaction. Most people didn't even give her a second look, two thought she was a burn victim, and the rest just thought it was pretty neat that she was from another planet. Of course, the aliens on that show looked human enough, but even if an ET wasn't remotely humanoid I think that as long as communication could be established most people wouldn't go running for their shotguns. Caution may be the norm, but not panic.

And if they landed in San Francisco's Castro Street district, nobody would notice.

Oops, forgot to address the second issue.

If ETs landed and took hostile actions, then yes, I can see a majority of people running for the hills (song cue: "Run For the Hills" by Iron Maiden). That same Hollywood Dream Machine that has conditioned us to accept extraterrestrials (but not each other, oddly enough) has also conditioned us to believe that they could kick our double-helix posteriors.

Hey, wait a minute. Could Hollywood be under the control of extraterrestrials who want us to accept them as our masters without a fight? I know, I know. I'll go back to my bong... (Stupid monkey's been keeping it to himself!)

Dave,
you continuously show that you're a lazy reader - no wonder you couldn't understand my posting - the 4 letter word is, 'shit'
( just doesn't stop)- and you wrote it.The truth of intagibles is always subjective and I certainly gave you a nice slice of mine. Do you expect me or anyone for that matter to be able to actually prove the existence of a soul or a spiritual dimension ? if you were a bug living in a pond would you believe it if another bug told you that pretty soon you would go through a physical transformation and leave your environment to go and live in a completely different dimension? of-course not! but how could that other bug prove it?

Boris,
I hear ya but cutting edge physics is continually making discoveries which raise big questions as to whether the universe happened randomly or was in actual fact some part of a grand design.
For example, 'coincidences', some of which involve the fundamental forces that bind together the universe. Coincidences such as this: the hearts of all atoms are made up of protons and neutrons , held together by the so-called strong nuclear force. If that force were just a tiny bit weaker, protons would refuse to come together. This would mean that no element heavier than hydrogen could exist which would rule out carbon and hence human life.
On the other hand, if it were just a tiny bit stronger, protons would stick together so easily that hydrogen could not exist at all and that would rule out water, another key chemical fo life.
Another example of strange coincidences concerns the properties of sub atomic particles. For instance, the fact that electrons weigh so much less than protons or neutrons turns out to be crucial for the existence of chemicals essential for life. "It is a prerequisite for molecules like DNA maintaining their precise and distinctive structures", according to Professor Sir Martin Rees of Cambridge university (UK)."It is the electron mass that determines the overall size of atoms and the spacing between the atoms in a molecule."
The fact that protons and neutrons have almost but not quite, the same mass, also turns out to be crucial for life, says Rees.
"A neutron is heavier than a proton by 0.14 per cent, little more than one part in a thousand. But this difference, small though it is, is important because it exceeds the total mass of an electron. If electrons weren't so light, they would combine with protons to form neutrons, leaving no hydrogen."
I could cite further examples but I think you get the gist, the point is that you can observe the universe forming and evolving to such strict and strange criteria that it makes you wonder 'why'- that word again! - it chose that partircular pattern. It's as though there is some type of 'universe DNA' that knows exactly which route to follow.

Nuff for now, by the way, I lifted the science from Focus magazine March '99 issue and I would thank them very much not to sue me over it.

-MAY YOUR POPPADUMS ALWAYS BE SPICY-

Oxygen,

If you had a grey walk down the street and people knew it was the real thing instead of a robot or human with a bunch of makeup they would either run or fight it right? Now if there was a mass landing (even if it was a friendly one)
sh.. would hit the fan. It is not such a
leap to think the government could be conditioning us through Hollywood to accept these visitors if they know eventually we will have to deal with them whether they are good or bad.
These days people freak out if their
nintendo is not working so I'm not so sure they could deal with an advanced race of beings. I think the experience would be like jumping into a body of water with great white sharks you know they are in the water and you are left wondering if and when you are their next meal unlike what you would be thinking if you were observing them from shore where
you know they cannot hurt you.

tablariddim,

I hear you as well. However, the seeming strangeness of the anthropic principle does little to substantiate the idea of souls.

On the other hand, there are several things to consider. For one, our fundamental understanding of reality cannot be considered complete. What we call neutrons and protons, and strong/weak nuclear forces -- are more mathematical models than actual entities. It may turn out in the long run that the entire universe and all its "force fields" derive from a single fundamental entity. This would show that none of the parameters are accidental or fortuitous, but stand in strict consequence of that single entity's properties. What does seem to be fairly certain (and if it were not, it would obviate any scientific endeavor) -- is that the universe is entirely causal, and functions like a big mechanism, with nothing but its own internal energy exchanges driving it.

Secondly, it is popular to assume different physical laws and demonstrate impossibility of life <u>as we know it</u>. However, that does not demonstrate that no life of a different type from ours could emerge! And if they do, I can imagine them wondering in amazement at the particular laws of their universe which enable their existence, but should the laws be slightly altered, would make their existence impossible (and perhaps, ours possible, or some yet another type of life).

Finally, the anthropic principle pretty much says it all. We are here simply because we indeed <u>can</u> be here. For example, forest fires happen precisely because there exists dry organic material in an oxygen-rich environment. Had Earth not contained so much oxygen in its atmosphere, forest fires would become an impossibility. Granted, life (and especially intelligent life) describes a far more complex chain reaction of physical interactions than a flame would. However, if one views life indeed as a very prolonged chemical reaction, then the existence of our particular life in the universe becomes less a matter of wonder and coincidence, but rather a matter of inevitability due to the universe's particular make-up.

In other words, the parameters of the universe only become confoundingly "coincidental" when you take yourself as the point of reference. (I exist, and isn't that just amazing that this world is "tailored" to my existence?) Arguably, such a perspective is a bit distorted. If you rather consider the universe itself as the point of reference, then all miraculous coincidence disappears. (The universe simply is the way it is, and oh by the way, life as we know it just happens to be one of the many processes this particular configuration supports.)

------------------
I am; therefore I think.

Boris,
" We can never finally know. I simply believe that some part of the human self is not subject to the laws of space and time "
Carl Jung

I think I can identify with the above statement, only I would subsitute -human self- with 'every living organism' and I would add 'as we understand them' at the end of it.
Take care!

-A LITTLE CHILLI WORKS WONDERS-

Alien-I think a single grey might cause a mixed reaction. I know I would be intensely curious mixed with a lot of caution. Fear is one of the primal instincts that keeps us alive. There would be some people who panicked and ran into their houses, just as I'm sure someone would probably walk right up to it. I'd like to think I'd keep my distance until I could ascertain it's intentions, but I'd probably turn stupid enough to walk right up to it. Whichever, it would be a hell of an experience. The government, I'm sure, would surround everybody with everything, pull up in a big armored car, jump out in environmental suits, blast the thing to pieces with an M60, quarantine the area for three years, then tell everybody it was a crash dummy dropped from a weather balloon. (The bad thing is, some would buy it.)

A mass landing would definitely provoke a "negative reaction". In this situation, I'd be way less likely to walk right up. One alien could be lost. A whole flock of them, however? It took some amount of resources to move all of them. I'd want to know why. That primal instinct, fear, would have me assume that they aren't up to any good. Nobody sends a 40 piece orchestra with a peace envoy. (I know, that's terrestrial thinking, but I don't pretend to know what's going on in their extraterrestrial minds.)

Oxygen,
Yes, I can understand that. You brought up something that I feel is important and thats what is in the extraterrestrial mind. A lot of people assume that they would reason as we do ( I hope not LOL)
however their thinking is most likely
very different from our own.To them,
slaughtering a bunch of people just out of curiousity could be quite normal.
If there is any truth to the many abduction stories by credible people
throughout the years we are in trouble
what exactly who knows.
Alien


[This message has been edited by Alien (edited November 13, 1999).]

tablariddim,

I do not agree with the "We can never finally know" part. While it is indeed possible that reality contains a hidden aspect (or many of them!) which we have not yet discovered, if that is indeed the case we will discover them all in time.

Let me make an analogy. Suppose you are a stone-age hunter-gatherer who happens to stumble upon a working modern car. Naturally, he/she would not have a slightest clue as to what makes the car do all the things it does. The complexity of the engine, and the science required to understand the engine, are far beyond the repertoire of the poor stumped brute. Will the mystery of the engine's workings, and its complex characteristics and behaviors, engender a guess that the car is in fact alive? I bet it will.

We are faced with a similar situation in case of the human mind. We are like cavemen trying to comprehend the workings of an ultra-complex engine. Naturally, it is a task too daunting to allow quick resolution. Understanding will take a lot of struggle, and a lot of time -- centuries, perhaps. But just as an internal combustion engine is 100% material and has no "soul" to it -- so is the human brain.

Similar analogy works for the biochemical complexity of living cells and the multicellular organisms they compose.

In fact, there is little (if any!) basis for a suspicion that we will <u>never</u> be able to describe the complete structure and behavioral profiles of these complex systems purely in terms of physical interactions between the constituent atoms. Such would be a far simpler description than one involving both matter and something altogether immaterial. The idea of "soul" is an appendage which is completely unnecessary and unwarranted at this stage; and here is one situation where Occam's razor indeed is applicable.

------------------
I am; therefore I think.

[This message has been edited by Boris (edited November 14, 1999).]

Tab...
Who's lazy .... me or you .. I expressly typed in sh*t.. that's a wildcard entry for you to fill in as you please!
How on earth you can continue to claim <u>truth</u> is beyond me when your own ramblings question the very core of your claim - "The truth of intangibles is always subjective"
You see, the trouble with truth to some people is that facts don't enter into it or seem to be non-existent in some cases. I feel you fall into the latter category.
I may as well join in and make wild statements - proclaim them as truth - then declare to all their minds are too primative to accept it - wahlah! I now speak an unquestionable and completely unsubstantiated truth with absolutely no fact to back me up! Anyone who dares question or rebute my claim is stupid, lazy, ignorant, mentally inferior etc etc.
You say you served me a up a nice slice of yours, well - if you cook like you think, I'd rather eat out!
Don't bother replying...

Dave,
chill out man. If you want to eat me, there are certain vital ingredients you have to use, which you should have used when you first got into this discussion. And they are, a pinch of salt, a dose of irony and a tongue firmly planted in cheek.
By the way you are right,I do cook with flair and imagination. In fact, my ispired cooking and catering style enabled me to retire at 37, so that I could become a full time dreamer. This is the truth and so are my constantly evolving ideas, some of which I shared with you.
Watch out for those Aliens!

-HOUMMOUS CAN NEVER HAVE ENOUGH GARLIC-

Hey Truestory, I'd like a Pepsi to. Think about my needs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(it's just a lighthearted joke, but I would like that Pepsi)

BY THE WAY, QUIT USING MY SCREEN NAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


On a serious note, LEAVE DEX ALONE, I'm sick of all this #h#ty (you figure out the word) critism of kids and ther typing skills.


Dude

People, poeple, people QUIT CRITISING DEX FOR HIS AGE!!! By doood's estimat I'm 20 - 21 SAY SOMETHING ABOUT THAT OLD FOLKS.


HA,HA,HA, that's me laughing at you, DUDE

Boris,

That analogy of the car implies that the brute would assume that the car was alive, but you forgot that the car would have to have been designed by someone or someones!

You can use all the big words you want, but your arguement is still invalid. Here's why:
I see what you're saying, but we are not here because the mechanisms of the universe just happened to be just right for our existence. The fact is, there are just waaaayyyy too many "coincidences" that are just right for life to exist by mere chance. Look at the arguement that Tablaraddim was making. The way that the individual atoms work and how intricately balanced that they are, and how if just one of those factors was a tiny bit off, it would cease to exist as it was and become something completely different. Look at the tilt of the earth. It is 23 degrees, and even though it wobbles, it's the fact that it never goes past this amount that keeps it from going out of whack and causing havoc with our climate. And it's only because we have a moon that it is this way. It's a very delicate balance.

You say, "sure, but what I was saying was that it may be BECAUSE of these present states of physical reality that we came to exist as we are today. And that if the laws of physics were different, we might exist in a completely different form because those laws were particularly that way." Well, it doesn't really matter because no matter what the laws of reality are, it still requires that all these factors work in harmony. They ain't no way for it to be an accident mane.

You even stated it yourself; maybe it's just part of a mechanism that works from a single existence. Hmmm, sounds like God to me.

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There is no such thing as subjective truth.