any thoughts on these points from genesis this must be as old as the book itself but id like to know what people think.

1 it was god that lied 'for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die'

2 the serpent told the truth 'ye shall not surely die'

3 the sepernt told another truth 'the day ye eat thereof your eyes shall be opened and ye shall be as gods knowing good and evil'

4 god banished 'the man' for becoming wise and to prevent him from becoming immortal 'behold he has become as one of us now, to know good and evil: and now lest he put forth his hand and and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.'

Shouldn't you be the one to start? If you care so little over this subject that you can't bother to write some little essay upon it, then why should you think anybody else would care?

sorry leo volont do you mean me? you think that i should write an essay on it?

if i was able to write an essay on it i wouldnt need to ask what people think?

Dear Elion,

Oh.... okay... when you put it that way.

To under stand Creation Mythology, it is good to examine other of the similar Mythological Traditions. A good source would be Joseph Campbell's "Occidental Mythology"... not for his viewpoint or conclusions, as the man is a neo-Nazi, but only for his layout of the other Creation Mythologies.

I'm sure if you play with all those symbols long enough, you can make sense of them... like interpreting poetry. But first it would be good to determine what it is attempting to explain. What needs explaining is how Spiritual Souls got into Animal Bodies and how Immortal Spirits became incased in corruptable bodies subject to death. There also has to be an explanation for why Mystical Knowledge is hidden from us.

If we look at Creation Mythologies of the Pre-Iron Age Civilizations -- before the Patriarchal Invasions of the Matriarchal Cultures -- then we see Eve as the First of God's Creations and Adam as the Son and then Spouse. We find that the Serpent was not so much a personification of Evil as the Instigator of the Quest toward the Spirit.

We can interpret the Curse of God to be the Loss of our Innocences. When we decided that being mortal animals was no longer good enough, and that we wished to aim hirer, aspiring to the Spiritual Life, then, and only then, did we realize our nakedness. Only when we started out upon that Great Journey did we realize just how far we had to go.

so its not a sin that we have to make atonement for afterall.

so its not a sin that we have to make atonement for afterall.

Sin is another Myth. The Creation Story was the Story which sets forth the beginnings and dimensions of our Spiritual Quest.

If you want to know about Sin, then you must consult the Myth of the Fallen Angels. Lucifer was the Most Powerful Angel in Heaven and became so fascinated with himself that he thought he could rival God. So Lucifer went among the other Angels and gather all of those who felt that they could do better for themselves without God. It was One Third of the Angels, but Lucifer thought that they were far the Better Angels and that in a Battle they could defeat the Two Thirds of the other Angels because they were without the Character and the Power of his Arrogant Following. But Lucifer was wrong. The Power of the Loyal Angels surprised him. Michael rose to the Occassion and became quite Lucifer's equal. So the Arrogant and Independent One Third were thrown out of Heaven and became the Fallen Angels.

This brings us the nature of Sin, which few Christians even understand. Sin is not sex, or lying, or stealing or any of that. It is not even disobedience to God, though it can be and usually is. Sin, essentially, is falling into the illusion that we are independent and isolated from All Things. Sin is selfishness. Evil thinks all power revolves in the sense of Self. Individuality and Freedom is the Mantra of Evil. The Victory of the Loyal Angels demonstrates that a surprising power sources out of Collectivity, out of Community, out of Love. The Math -- the One Third against the Two Thirds tells us that the Creators of this Myth thought that most people are good, and that only a minority of people are inherently and naturally Evil, that is, Selfish.

any thoughts on these points from genesis this must be as old as the book itself but id like to know what people think.

d__First i'd like to say, that as much as i myself sometimes critique Joseph Campbell, regarding his "monomyth", etc., the accusations from Leo of him being a 'neo-nazi' are unfounded. The same has been said about Carl Jung, and that is unfounded too.

1 it was god that lied 'for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die'

d___it has to be understood that this whole myth is a patriarchal elite group of men demonizing Goddess religion.
For example, in Occidental Mythology, by Joseph Campbell he shows much more ancient seals showing the same mythological symbolism the Hebrews appropriated, and which depicted the Goddess and consort freely offering the Fruit of the Tree to all those, both male and female who wanted to participate in her mysteries.
Also in ancient Judaism, the Tree also was a symbol for the Goddess. Carvings of tree-like sculptures actually represented her.
So, dig, Tree, Serpent, Fruit, Garden....All this imagery belings to prepatriarcy, and Goddess earth religion.

2 the serpent told the truth 'ye shall not surely die'

d
--to understand myth you can't be literalist. myth is associative. It helps to know that the whole myth of the Tree and Fruit is referring to an hallucongenic sacrament, which, as said, in the Goddess tradition was FREELY available for all who wanted experience and ecstasy. so what is being played out and SUBVERTED in the patriarchal Hebrew version is a WARNING NOT to eat this Fruit. for NOW the sole authority is Juadic law/"God"--the God of the 'chosen people'....the 'jealous God'. 'He@ don't want no competition!

3 the sepernt told another truth 'the day ye eat thereof your eyes shall be opened and ye shall be as gods knowing good and evil'

d__Exactly. this is REAL. you NOW can have this experience. this isn't some farty old tale of something that's not connected with you, like the historical literalist myth of A man who dies on A cross, in a time way back, etc. that aint myth, that's history. two different things. Myth is really NOW. speaking to you NOw out of time.
so this conniving myth is partly ttelling you the truth regarding the power of ecstatic experience yet also holding a stick to beat you with if you partake. it's warning you off!

4 god banished 'the man' for becoming wise and to prevent him from becoming immortal 'behold he has become as one of us now, to know good and evil: and now lest he put forth his hand and and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.'

The so-called two Trees in the garden are actually one. they are etymologically linked as J.M.Alegro reveals in his book, The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross

As you can see in the story. The Tree is banned in both its depictions, the one eat from curses the man, etc, and the other is barred from approaching. As you can see, this is one of the first drug busts in historical record, courtesy of the patriarchy. And the War on [some] Drugs continues!

Well done god !, Adam picked up a gun and went to war whilst Eve stuck poisionous jelly inside her breasts.

Great !

Sin, essentially, is falling into the illusion that we are independent and isolated from All Things. Sin is selfishness.

toally agree with this, seperation, exclusion, etc are the source of mans inhumanity at present.

Evil thinks all power revolves in the sense of Self. Individuality and Freedom is the Mantra of Evil.

having difficulty with this one. are you saying freedom and individuality are negative states?

an authoritarian will hate you being an individual with a mind of their own. don'
t believe me?........go join the army and try it. soon you'll have a loud mouth screaming down your ear

obviously ecstasy is liberation, freedom, yeah. and that 'God' in the garden? don't want you to have that.

in Eastern patriarchal religious dogma it is that 'you' are 'ignorant' and your 'self' is 'illusion' so you must strive for 'self-less-ness'

having difficulty with this one. are you saying freedom and individuality are negative states?



Think of your typical Barbarian "Warrior" -- that is what they call themselves, but they are just what we would call rapers, pillagers, thieves, bandits -- but look at how they see themselves. Proud, independent, self-reliant. Who loved freedom more than Attila the Hun or Ghengis Khan. Who loved individuality, that is, the right to exploit others, more than these vandals, invaders and tyrants.

We need to examine what Civilized Morals really are. Enslaving each other and stealing from each other, what Conservatives call 'Opportunity', while great for the concentration of Wealth into the hands of a tiny minority, do not work well for Civilization in the long run. Arnold Toynbee spent a lifetime of scholarly work studying the dynamics of Civilization and uncovered an interesting truth -- there have been only 21 Civilizations in the History of the World and all of them have collapsed over issues involving Concentration of Wealth into the hands of private individuals who diverted that Wealth away from society and its necessary infrastructures. Civilizations declined and collapsed when their Governments lost the ability to restrain the Freedom of individuals, who, in pursuing their own ends, were selfinterested in destroying Civilization.

It is the delusion of every Special Interest that they can thrive in isolation from the rest of Society. But it is the spirit of Independence which compels them into seeing everything as a Competition. And when they Win, it is inevitable that everybody else loses.

so you are into fascism are you?
have heard that in Singapore the streets are SO clean. reason being that throwing litter gets a heavy punishment. also if you are caught selling drugs there you can get life and even execution. i err wouldn't like to live there

What about Nazi Germany? were the poeple free there, or were they manipulated by propaganda? you've seen the newsfootage. thousands of seeming robots with stiff arms saluting their fuhrer. is that freedom?

you see to suggest that it is ionherent in peope to want to rape and pillage about the coutryside, unless controlled....by who? an elite who then just does what the hell IT wants to. like Bush and Blair, starting an illegal war and slaughtering thousands of innocent people to pormote business interests. is that the freedom you mean

and what's you best place where you define freedom? is it the 'land of the free' USA, where so many homicides happen every year


there CANNOT BE freedom less you are free yourself. why would you WANt to rape and pillage if you are free yourself. the fkers that did that--the patriarchas WEREnT free. they were fleeing from their Depth, their Feminine. they despise the feminine and Nature. that is not freedom

God didn't lie in Genesis when he told Adam and Eve the day they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil they would die.

Adam and Eve were created to be immortal and to live in the paradise that was Eden. The day they ate from that tree they became mortal and the paradise was shattered. The innocence they had died that day.

The day they ate from that tree they became mortal and the paradise was shattered. The innocence they had died that day.
read it again they where mortal any way.

4 'now lest he put forth his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever'

read it again they where mortal any way.

4 'now lest he put forth his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever'

Verse 4 is refering to the time after the fall. They were mortal then but before the fall they were not.

Think of your typical Barbarian "Warrior" -- that is what they call themselves, but they are just what we would call rapers, pillagers, thieves, bandits -- but look at how they see themselves. Proud, independent, self-reliant. Who loved freedom more than Attila the Hun or Ghengis Khan. Who loved individuality, that is, the right to exploit others, more than these vandals, invaders and tyrants.

We need to examine what Civilized Morals really are. Enslaving each other and stealing from each other, what Conservatives call 'Opportunity', while great for the concentration of Wealth into the hands of a tiny minority, do not work well for Civilization in the long run. Arnold Toynbee spent a lifetime of scholarly work studying the dynamics of Civilization and uncovered an interesting truth -- there have been only 21 Civilizations in the History of the World and all of them have collapsed over issues involving Concentration of Wealth into the hands of private individuals who diverted that Wealth away from society and its necessary infrastructures. Civilizations declined and collapsed when their Governments lost the ability to restrain the Freedom of individuals, who, in pursuing their own ends, were selfinterested in destroying Civilization.

It is the delusion of every Special Interest that they can thrive in isolation from the rest of Society. But it is the spirit of Independence which compels them into seeing everything as a Competition. And when they Win, it is inevitable that everybody else loses.

but arent you saying here that we need freedom from corrupt government and authoritarian leadership. so freedom and independence is not only what individuals desire but is what they need as a basic necessity to survive in, and as, a culture.

you see to suggest that it is ionherent in peope to want to rape and pillage about the coutryside, unless controlled....by who? an elite who then just does what the hell IT wants to.

who said this?

are we referring to this:
Think of your typical Barbarian "Warrior" -- that is what they call themselves, but they are just what we would call rapers, pillagers, thieves, bandits -- but look at how they see themselves. Proud, independent, self-reliant. Who loved freedom more than Attila the Hun or Ghengis Khan. Who loved individuality, that is, the right to exploit others, more than these vandals, invaders and tyrants.

i dont believe any body who really values freedom, and the right for individuals to control thier own lives could ever participate in, contribute to, or even support such crimes as those stated above. those people love control, they love power, this is what satisfies their perverse needs, by distorting their weaknesses and disguising their inadequecies.

Before they ate of the tree they were immortal.

After they ate of the tree they were not.

i realized that now

So on the day they ate of the tree they would know death. They would become mortal.

God didn't lie.

Before they ate of the tree they were immortal.

After they ate of the tree they were not.

I still think god was a bit economical with the truth. as after they ate of the tree they became as gods just like the serpent say.

I still think god was a bit economical with the truth. as after they ate of the tree they became as gods just like the serpent say.

Actually the serpent was a bit "economical" with the truth himself. The serpent told Eve she would not die, that was a lie. Both Adam and Eve died as a result of their sin.

Before they ate of the tree they were immortal.

After they ate of the tree they were not.

you are reading this tale LITERALLY without any seemig insight as to the interpretation the patriarcha put onto the much more ancinet understanding of immortality.

You have to know that the Fruit referred to is eternal knowledge. this was the hallucinogenic fruit of the Goddess myth. For example, the images of Tree, Fruit and Serpent are ripped off from other myths--whcih we Goddess oriented, as Monica Sjoo And Barbara Mor, Joseph Campbell, and others have pointed out

The SERPENT is a very ancient symbol symbolizing immortality. ie., in the way it sloughs off its skin, this and other associations represented immortality as via CYCLIC transformation.
What the patriarchs did/ including the ones who wrote that tale of the Garden of Eden, is SUBVERT that originry meaning to mean 'immortality' equals EVERLASTING life. and THEN DEMONIZES the very FRUIT that inspired the more ancinet insight

I.e., it is demonizing the Goddess' earth religious worldview!

its also ambiguous, cause it does hint that the fruit form the 'Tree of Life' will confer immortality , but as you see 'God' prohibits us from HAVING the Fruit. Unlike the freedom to partake of it in Goddess' times

You have to know that the Fruit referred to is eternal knowledge.

I agree. The Bible says Eve saw the fruit was good for wisdom.

The SERPENT is a very ancient symbol symbolizing immortality. The serpent is also a very ancient symbol of evil.

What the patriarchs did/ including the ones who wrote that tale of the Garden of Eden, is SUBVERT that originry meaning to mean 'immortality' equals EVERLASTING life. and THEN DEMONIZES the very FRUIT that inspired the more ancinet insight

I.e., it is demonizing the Goddess' earth religious worldview!

Maybe I missed something but what does symbolic fruit have to do with a goddess?

its also ambiguous, cause it does hint that the fruit form the 'Tree of Life' will confer immortality , but as you see 'God' prohibits us from HAVING the Fruit. Unlike the freedom to partake of it in Goddess' times

Read Revelation. It says that in the future man will have free access to the tree of life.

god said they will die, not they will know death.

the serpent said their eyes will be opened.

and their eyes where opened.

Actually the serpent was a bit "economical" with the truth himself. The serpent told Eve she would not die, that was a lie. Both Adam and Eve died as a result of their sin.

some 900 years later after raising a family

I agree. The Bible says Eve saw the fruit was good for wisdom.

d___good

The serpent is also a very ancient symbol of evil.

d___not in the times of Motherright it aint. It was the patriarchy that demonized Serpent/Dragon.
For examp[le, in original Goddess of the Garden Tre and Fruit, Serpent is the Gurdian of Garden and Tree. also Dragon, which the patriarchal 'heros', like St George etc etc,. are seen killing is Guardian of Nature!

Maybe I missed something but what does symbolic fruit have to do with a goddess?

d___The Fruit Is the Serpent, and her Son and Lover and the means to celebrate in her Mysteries of Nature. to 'unveil' Her/Nature

Read Revelation. It says that in the future man will have free access to the tree of life.

hah...a bit too late when we're all nuked

the Fruit should never have been forbidden in the First place. what are we ...KIDs, and these patriarchal-myth-spinners are our PARENTS who tell us what we can eat and drink?...not so! though they STILL are doing same with their war on [SOME] drugs

Read Revelation. It says that in the future man will have free access to the tree of life.

c2 v7 actually, right now not in the future.

god said they will die, not they will know death.

The hebrew translation of "die" can also be "know death".

c2 v7 actually, right now not in the future.

You will eat from the tree of life if you overcome. The tree of life is in Heaven.

c2 v7 actually, right now not in the future.

IF "right now" whys yahweh put cherubim with flaming swords to guard the Tree of Life?

some 900 years later after raising a family

They still died just as God said they would.

The hebrew translation of "die" can also be "know death".

not sure where you get that from but i get the definition for
die / MUWTH a prim. root; to die. to kill. be dead (body, man, one). (put to, worthy of) death. (cause to be, like to, must) die kill.

They still died just as God said they would.

my point was,
god said they would die in that day. they didnt.
the serpent said their eyes would be opened, they where.

if god where telling the "truth". he would have said something like:

"for in the day that you eat thereof your eyes will be opened you will see things as i see them, but you will die 900 years later after having children. i could grant you immortality by the fruit of the tree of life. but i'll let my son do that when he is dead."

maybe then the man could have made an informed choice.

god said they would die that day. they didn't
Look at the hebrew word for "day" that is used in that verse. It does not always refer to a 24 hour period. It can mean any space of time.

(If you're using a "Strong's Concordance" it's number 3117)

the serpent uses the same term so;

god says in that 'space/time' that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die

the sepernt says in that 'space/time' ye eat thereof your eyes shall be opened and ye shal be as gods

who's statement is the most acurate, considering they died 900 years later but their eyes where opened the very same day(or space/time)?

Actually the serpent was a bit "economical" with the truth himself. The serpent told Eve she would not die, that was a lie. Both Adam and Eve died as a result of their sin.it was not there sin, they were coerced.
so can not be accountable.

IF "right now" whys yahweh put cherubim with flaming swords to guard the Tree of Life?

maybe he lied about that too.

it was not there sin, they were coerced.
so can not be accountable.

what sin was not theirs? there was no sin!

1 it was god that lied 'for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die'
Do we die?

2 the serpent told the truth 'ye shall not surely die'
Do we die?

3 the sepernt told another truth 'the day ye eat thereof your eyes shall be opened and ye shall be as gods knowing good and evil'
Are we as gods?

4 god banished 'the man' for becoming wise and to prevent him from becoming immortal 'behold he has become as one of us now, to know good and evil: and now lest he put forth his hand and and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.'
Are we wise? Is there a difference between "knowledge" and "wisdom"? Are we completely like gods or only when it comes to knowledge? Are we ready to live forever?

Do we die?


Do we die?


Are we as gods?


Are we wise? Is there a difference between "knowledge" and "wisdom"? Are we completely like gods or only when it comes to knowledge? Are we ready to live forever?


were 'we' told not to eat from the tree?
are we told that we are sinners?
are our natural instincts evil?
are we made to feel guilt about our sins?
are we offered salvation from our sins?
do guilt and fear cause confusion?
are we going to suffer an eternity for our sin?
is it a priest who 'saves' us or our Lord?
how long is eternity, how intense the pain, that i should suffer for my disbelief in this vindictive doctrine?

were 'we' told not to eat from the tree?
Yes.

are we told that we are sinners?
What is perfect?

are our natural instincts evil?
What is evil? Isn't "evil" a very subjective concept?

are we made to feel guilt about our sins?
Why would you?

are we offered salvation from our sins?
What is salvation?

do guilt and fear cause confusion?
Certainly.

are we going to suffer an eternity for our sin?
Why would you?

is it a priest who 'saves' us or our Lord?
Only you can save yourself.

how long is eternity
Long

how intense the pain
There is no pain.

that i should suffer for my disbelief in this vindictive doctrine?
The warrior fights until the end, no matter how great the pain is.
Belief all by itself cannot save you.

[TruthSeeker]

you have not been subject to christianity to the same degree that i have or you would have understood what i was getting at with those questions.

No, I think I probably have been. The difference is in the way I was subjected to it and what I learnt from it.

No, I think I probably have been. The difference is in the way I was subjected to it and what I learnt from it.

are you saying you do understand what i was getting at with those questions?

I understand your perspective.

I understand your perspective.

i dont get yours.
what was it you learnt from christianity?

Well.... a lot about faith and discipline. There are also some interesting comments on compassion and, of course, a lot on altruism. Oh! And a lot about law, as well. There are also things that I simply ignore.

But I don't consider myself to be only Christian. I'm a kind of blend of Christian, Zen-Buddhist and Taoist...... :eek:

i have found a lot of knowledge in the book but a lot of ignorance in the church, especially about other paths and different cultures. you wouldnt be very welcome in the christian culture that i know, especially if you had an opinion of your own.

Yes, I know. I understand.... :)

any thoughts on these points from genesis this must be as old as the book itself but id like to know what people think.

1 it was god that lied 'for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die'

2 the serpent told the truth 'ye shall not surely die'

3 the sepernt told another truth 'the day ye eat thereof your eyes shall be opened and ye shall be as gods knowing good and evil'

4 god banished 'the man' for becoming wise and to prevent him from becoming immortal 'behold he has become as one of us now, to know good and evil: and now lest he put forth his hand and and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.'

Dear ellion,

In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; Titus 1:2 of the King James Version of the Bible.

the serpent told the truth 'ye shall not surely die' Satan told half truth.

the sepernt told another truth 'the day ye eat thereof your eyes shall be opened and ye shall be as gods knowing good and evil'
Satan told mixed truth.

Compare:
Psalms 82:1 A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
Psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Psalms 82:7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

God banished 'the man of earth" because he had transgressed the commandment of his Creator.

you are saying satan in the place of serpent, why?

you are saying satan in the place of serpent, why?
Why? Good, you`ve noticed.

Of course that serpent was not part of the creation of God.
Refer: Revelations 12:9
http://www.addbible.com/search.php?version=tbl_bib_kjv&books=66&keyword=12%3A9&rbtn=4&searchbtn.x=38&searchbtn.y=15

if that serpent was not part of the creation of god, there are a number of problems that arise.
of whose creation was that seprent a part?
who created that, which created that creation?
why was that serpent in the creation of god? (the purpose)
how was that serpent in the creation of god? (the permit)

if that serpent was not part of the creation of god, there are a number of problems that arise.
of whose creation was that seprent a part?
who created that, which created that creation?
why was that serpent in the creation of god? (the purpose)
how was that serpent in the creation of god? (the permit)
I can`t answer your hypothetical "if" biblically speaking.

My god, you are a complete robot enton.

Why don't we get the new Pope to open up the Vatican vaults and publish every document contained therin online? That might add an interesting new dimension to circular debates like these.

enton,
you said above that serpent is not part of gods creation so how is it a hypothetical question?


superluminal, you use the phrase "my god" how has that become such an inherent part of your psyche that as an expression it seems so natural?

Everything is part of God's creation, even nothingness.

ellion:

superluminal, you use the phrase "my god" how has that become such an inherent part of your psyche that as an expression it seems so natural?

It's a crime I know. We pick up certain habits from youth that are very hard to break. And I use it here knowing full well the irony. I also say "god bless you" when someone sneezes, if I'm not paying attention to myself. I also say goddamn it to hell, Jesus fucking Christ, Christ on a Stick, Oh my fucking god... All sorts of variations.

Lately I've taken to this sort of thing because it seems so appropriate:

God^®

and

The Christ™

Going to hell. Yeha, yeah. I know.

You should be. Look at my avatar. I will eat your soul and spit the remains out for the lesser hell hounds to feast upon...

®™, wow! how cool are these. can i borrow them if i need?

Even better. Here's the mother load:

http://www.avenue-it.com/html/extracharacters.html

i ♥ it!

ReallY? He "hearts" it or he "loves" it.

You're just kidding right?

Ahhh... my brain! :confused: :m:

Wtf!? :confused:

ah!
⊕
the mark of the beast.

:p

Oh!!! That explains a loooot!! :D

...??
I don't understand... :confused:

Mwhuahuahuahuahuahuahuahuahuahuahuahua!!!!