well my first thread on universal health care really didn't seem to go any where so i'm going to start another one the sources i'm going to list are what i consider to be some of the best
http://www.amsa.org/uhc/CaseForUHC.pdf
http://www.amsa.org/studytours/WaitingTimes_primer.pdf
http://www.amsa.org/uhc/IHSprimer_outline.pdf
i feel as this give an unbiased look at the issue all though the amsa can be considered to be biased in this because they do not provide info on the other side of the issue the from their arguements in non biased and scientific language. if any one has a problem with what they are saying i would suggest you look up their documention. it is at the bottom of all three of these i have checked most of them out and found their sources to be reliable, unbiased, and to be respected groups.
correction the third article has no documentation but with some easy research you can find info from those contries

Where does the money come from to pay for it?

What if "the people" don't want to pay for it through their taxes?

Should a democratic nation force "we, the people", the taxpayers, to pay for something that they don't want?

What guarantees do "we, the people" have that there will be the same quality of healthcare available as it is now?

Who administers the national healthcare system? The government? Those same people who can't find ecoli in lettuce or can't find lead paint on toys? Those same people?

In the USA, anyone who needs medical care can get it by going to state, county or city hospitals any time they want ...and without paying a dime. And that included illegal immigrants, too.

Is the national healthcare systems in other nations really as good as people like to claim? Or is it a propaganda stunt, and a "hate America" stance like Fat-Boy Moore's film?

Why do rich people from other nations come to America for proper medical care?

Baron Max

that is answer for the most part in my sources. and that third to last one is bs i know because i no longer have insurance

....that third to last one is bs i know because i no longer have insurance

Ahh, now I understand your concerns and desires .....you want something for free, something which you can't afford!

I want a new Maserati, too, should the government give me one?

Baron Max

In the USA, anyone who needs medical care can get it by going to state, county or city hospitals any time they want ...and without paying a dime. And that included illegal immigrants, too.
Is that true? Then whats the problem?

Ahh, now I understand your concerns and desires .....you want something for free, something which you can't afford!

I want a new Maserati, too, should the government give me one?

Baron Max

i do not want something for free i was for universal health care before i lost my insurance. and i'm sorry but something as vital to a nation's well being such as health care should not be a privliage.
i would also like to point out to you you are committing a ad hominem attack against me/

Is that true? Then whats the problem?

the cost is transfered to others through higher costs. in other words it is not true

the cost is transfered to others through higher costs. in other words it is not true

Which is exactly, precisely, what happens with a national healthcare system ....the expenses are transfered to others! And more to the point, it's transferred to others without their consent and approval.

Why should Joe be forced to pay for Mike's hospital bills?

Baron Max

....and i'm sorry but something as vital to a nation's well being such as health care should not be a privliage.

People die all the time, every day, in accidents or are murdered ....and it doesn't affect the nation's well-being! What's the big deal?

We'd be better off without so many of those fuckin' people. Hell, the nation's well-being would be much better if we only had half of the people we now have! And you want to keep more people to suck more from the nation???

Humans suck.

Baron Max

Which is exactly, precisely, what happens with a national healthcare system ....the expenses are transfered to others! And more to the point, it's transferred to others without their consent and approval.

Why should Joe be forced to pay for Mike's hospital bills?

Baron Max

same as it is no making it a mute point come on you can do better than that to refute universal health. also under a uhc system the us is projected to save 1.1 trillion dollars the first decade. and under a uhc it would be with their consent and approval do to the voting by proxy in the congress

People die all the time, every day, in accidents or are murdered ....and it doesn't affect the nation's well-being! What's the big deal?

We'd be better off without so many of those fuckin' people. Hell, the nation's well-being would be much better if we only had half of the people we now have! And you want to keep more people to suck more from the nation???

Humans suck.

Baron Max

i don't think you understand my point

Is that true? Then whats the problem?

Well, the problem is that the bleeding-heart liberals don't want "those people" feeling as if they're taking charity ...makes 'em feel a little bad, ya' know?

But, yes, it's absolutely true.

Baron Max

i don't think you understand my point

Oh, I understand your point .....you want a bunch of other people to pay for your healthcare ...that's your point. You don't want to have to pay for it yourself.

Baron Max

Well, the problem is that the bleeding-heart liberals don't want "those people" feeling as if they're taking charity ...makes 'em feel a little bad, ya' know?

But, yes, it's absolutely true.

Baron Max

if it is true prove it my sources already document the increased cost as is. in other words put your money where your mouth is

Well, the problem is that the bleeding-heart liberals don't want "those people" feeling as if they're taking charity ...makes 'em feel a little bad, ya' know?

I doubt that. If anyone can get healthcare regardless of whether you can pay for it, it doesnt matter if you "feel" like your taking charity.

why does no one find this important enough to have a good logical informed debate on it

stop leeching off others. Got a medical problem? operate on yourself!

Oh, I understand your point .....you want a bunch of other people to pay for your healthcare ...that's your point. You don't want to have to pay for it yourself.

Baron Max

you probably didn't even read my sources if you read them it will show their is a strong econmic arguement for it. and you have shown no understanding of my reasoning fuck you have not even tried to refute the points made in my sources

What strong economic argument?

What strong economic argument?

it is esitamted with a single payer universal health care system we would save 1.1 trillion dollars over the first decade. it would increase worker productivity and would allow more people to go into buisness for them selves expand the us's availble amount of entrepreneurial talent.
also read my top sources under economic reasons

What about hidden costs.

well my first thread on universal health care really didn't seem to go any where so i'm going to start another one the sources i'm going to list are what i consider to be some of the best
http://www.amsa.org/uhc/CaseForUHC.pdf
http://www.amsa.org/studytours/WaitingTimes_primer.pdf
http://www.amsa.org/uhc/IHSprimer_outline.pdf
i feel as this give an unbiased look at the issue all though the amsa can be considered to be biased in this because they do not provide info on the other side of the issue the from their arguements in non biased and scientific language. if any one has a problem with what they are saying i would suggest you look up their documention. it is at the bottom of all three of these i have checked most of them out and found their sources to be reliable, unbiased, and to be respected groups.
correction the third article has no documentation but with some easy research you can find info from those contries

The reason your first thread didn't go anywhere is the same reason why this new attempt of yours will also fail - most Americans can see through the sales pitch to the nearly unlimited costs of such a system and just DON'T want it. Period.

The reason your first thread didn't go anywhere is the same reason why this new attempt of yours will also fail - most Americans can see through the sales pitch to the nearly unlimited costs of such a system and just DON'T want it. Period.

go away you are not instrested on having a reasoned debate on this

What about hidden costs.

if your read my first source it lays out where all the costs are

go away you are not instrested on having a reasoned debate on this

I gave you plenty of good reasons the first time around. You appear unequipped to understand them.

Tell me, did you EVER go and check out why Hilliary's big health care plan failed so miserably while Bill was in office and supported her and it?? If you had, you wouldn't be here bothering us with this whole mess again.

I gave you plenty of good reasons the first time around. You appear unequipped to understand them.

Tell me, did you EVER go and check out why Hilliary's big health care plan failed so miserably while Bill was in office and supported her and it?? If you had, you wouldn't be here bothering us with this whole mess again.

well false infomation was given by the repubs about i watch the news. and this whole mess is probably one of the most important issues in the us right

if your read my first source it lays out where all the costs are

It most certainly does NOT. I clearly told you that Americans don't want this stuff because the true costs would be astronomical while the quality of care would actually be reduced.

Why is it the the BIG majority of Americans can understand that but you cannot? And that implies something else very basic that you cannot grasp. :bugeye:

if your read my first source it lays out where all the costs are

Yaeh, known costs.

Socialized medicine sucks. The quality sucks. The doctors suck. The good doctors go into private practice when socialism takes over. People leave and go to other countries like the USA for their healthcare.

WE DON'T WANT SOCIALIZED MEDICINE. EVERY TIME THE GOVERNMENT GETS INVOLVED IN YOUR BUSINESS, YOU GET SCREWED....:mad:

So take the socialized medicine idea somewhere else. Winners in the USA do NOT want it.

Yaeh, known costs.

Right! And that's exactly the way Medicare was originally set up - with known (estimated) costs. And it quickly bloomed WAY out of proportion and is clearly THE most expensive program the government has ever established.

The American people learned from that boondoggle and realize THIS bit of stupidity would follow the same route. And it would even out-cost Medicare in no time. Dude doesn't even know enough to understand the history of Medicare and the obvious comparison it makes with this absurdity.

It most certainly does NOT. I clearly told you that Americans don't want this stuff because the true costs would be astronomical while the quality of care would actually be reduced.

Why is it the the BIG majority of Americans can understand that but you cannot? And that implies something else very basic that you cannot grasp. :bugeye:

prove your claim i keep on hearing you repeat that same tired line that i hear from everyone against yet you provide no proof

I gave you plenty of good reasons the first time around. You appear unequipped to understand them.

Tell me, did you EVER go and check out why Hilliary's big health care plan failed so miserably while Bill was in office and supported her and it?? If you had, you wouldn't be here bothering us with this whole mess again.

the only thing you did was bitch about my sources while providing no evidence for your claims in what universe is that giving good reasons

Socialized medicine sucks. The quality sucks. The doctors suck. The good doctors go into private practice when socialism takes over. People leave and go to other countries like the USA for their healthcare.

WE DON'T WANT SOCIALIZED MEDICINE. EVERY TIME THE GOVERNMENT GETS INVOLVED IN YOUR BUSINESS, YOU GET SCREWED....:mad:

So take the socialized medicine idea somewhere else. Winners in the USA do NOT want it.

if socialized medicine is so terrible why do countries that have it pay less per capita on health care and rank higher in health statistics

the only thing you did was bitch about my sources while providing no evidence for your claims in what universe is that giving good reasons

I've given you SOLID PROOF!!! Have you checked out Hillary's attempt yet??? I've suggest it to you at least THREE times now and you're to lazy to go try!! Sheesh!

Have you also gone to check out the history of Medicare??? It started exactly they way you are proposing this bit of garbage - see how that one turned out!:bugeye: Besides the war effort it is THE most costly thing we all have to pay for.

I really believe you're just on this kick because you have no insurance. You could be working RIGHT NOW and getting insurance from or through your employer instead of sitting at your computer wasting your (and other peoples) time. What's the deal with you NOT having a job already?????:mad:

I've given you SOLID PROOF!!! Have you checked out Hillary's attempt yet??? I've suggest it to you at least THREE times now and you're to lazy to go try!! Sheesh!

Have you also gone to check out the history of Medicare??? It started exactly they way you are proposing this bit of garbage - see how that one turned out!:bugeye: Besides the war effort it is THE most costly thing we all have to pay for.

I really believe you're just on this kick because you have no insurance. You could be working RIGHT NOW and getting insurance from or through your employer instead of sitting at your computer wasting your (and other peoples) time. What's the deal with you NOT having a job already?????:mad:

telling me to go look something doesn't constitute proof, you said as much me in my first thread. Also i have spent most of my available time seeking employment. Further more i have shown that health care expenditures would be reduced under a universal health care system.

geez a lot of hostility here.

Further more i have shown that health care expenditures would be reduced under a universal health care system.

No, you've tried to show us BIASED information ...which is purely propaganda in it's own favor. If you call that proof of any kind, then it's because you haven't read enough data or viable public information.

Baron Max

telling me to go look something doesn't constitute proof, you said as much me in my first thread. Also i have spent most of my available time seeking employment. Further more i have shown that health care expenditures would be reduced under a universal health care system.

It certainly does constitute proof - all you have to do is read it and you'll see where your problems lie. It seems you're either too lazy to check out those hard facts OR you're afraid to. Which is it?

It's also very, very foolish to believe such a system would reduce expenditures.

As to "most of your available time", if someone needs employment (and insurance), they (you) should be spending ALL of your available time on that effort.

I'd love to see health care be more 'unviersal' in the sense that doctors and hospitals advertise their prices and competition thrives in driving down prices. It won't happen as long as we continue to have a form of socialized medicine run by the private sector.

Yeah, I'm hesitant for the government to bring the role of health insurance under it's massive beuaracracy.

Yet at the same time to say that Americans don't want socialized health care, when it already exists is slightly annoying. Instead of paying a health insurance tax to the government, we instead pay an insurance premium to an insurance company. It's this crap that drives up the cost of health care and severely limits competition.

I'd love to see health care reform that opens up market competition. I'd love to see a medical facility with low prices. It's only then that you'd have 'universal' care.

I'd love to see health care be more 'unviersal' in the sense that doctors and hospitals advertise their prices and competition thrives in driving down prices. It won't happen as long as we continue to have a form of socialized medicine run by the private sector.

Yeah, I'm hesitant for the government to bring the role of health insurance under it's massive beuaracracy.

Yet at the same time to say that Americans don't want socialized health care, when it already exists is slightly annoying. Instead of paying a health insurance tax to the government, we instead pay an insurance premium to an insurance company. It's this crap that drives up the cost of health care and severely limits competition.

I'd love to see health care reform that opens up market competition. I'd love to see a medical facility with low prices. It's only then that you'd have 'universal' care.

I hope you fully realize that any sort of universal health care system would totally kill competition - 100% dead. All doctors would be paid exactly the same amount for every treatment or procedure. It would be whatever dollar figure the government set as the flat, unchanging payment. They also would have no incentive whatsoever to improve the quality of their services. Because the bad or poor-quality ones would be getting the exact same amount as the very best ones.

Also, you may have noticed that many hospitals are advertising now. Doctors, however, still do not because they consider it unethical. And if that were to change, personally, I don't think I'd like a choose a doctor based on the fact that he advertised lower fees than other doctors. That would give me a very, very bad feeling!

And that first paragraph is something that seems to be completely beyond pjdude's ( the OP) ability to grasp.

We have the losers who get all their stuff free from the government.:mad:

We have the self-responsible who pay for their own.:)

We have people who get their insurance through their place of employment.

We have those who have chosen to be uninsured.

We have criminal aliens who are closing down our hospitals because everything is an "emergency" to them and then they don't pay.:mad:

Socialized medicine is NOT the answer.

We have the losers who get all their stuff free from the government.:mad:

We have the self-responsible who pay for their own.:)

We have people who get their insurance through their place of employment.

We have those who have chosen to be uninsured.

We have criminal aliens who are closing down our hospitals because everything is an "emergency" to them and then they don't pay.:mad:

Socialized medicine is NOT the answer.

the insurance through employment system is begining to unravel. my parents have friends who are retired have health care through thier pension but are considering getting jobs again to pay for health care.

No, you've tried to show us BIASED information ...which is purely propaganda in it's own favor. If you call that proof of any kind, then it's because you haven't read enough data or viable public information.

Baron Max

um my source used the new england journel of medicine as a source since when has the nejm been biased the institute of medicine which they cite is not biased

It certainly does constitute proof - all you have to do is read it and you'll see where your problems lie. It seems you're either too lazy to check out those hard facts OR you're afraid to. Which is it?

It's also very, very foolish to believe such a system would reduce expenditures.

As to "most of your available time", if someone needs employment (and insurance), they (you) should be spending ALL of your available time on that effort.

i have other obligations that are very important to me that deal with my family which i will not shirk. that is where the rest of my time goes. and how is it fooli9sh to believe a system where the government pays would lower cost when every country that has a system where the government pays pays less per a person than we do. i'm sorry but you are the one who is refusing to face the facts. just because you are older than me doesn't make you smarter or more knowledgable than me

I hope you fully realize that any sort of universal health care system would totally kill competition - 100% dead. All doctors would be paid exactly the same amount for every treatment or procedure. It would be whatever dollar figure the government set as the flat, unchanging payment. They also would have no incentive whatsoever to improve the quality of their services. Because the bad or poor-quality ones would be getting the exact same amount as the very best ones.

Also, you may have noticed that many hospitals are advertising now. Doctors, however, still do not because they consider it unethical. And if that were to change, personally, I don't think I'd like a choose a doctor based on the fact that he advertised lower fees than other doctors. That would give me a very, very bad feeling!

And that first paragraph is something that seems to be completely beyond pjdude's ( the OP) ability to grasp.

if it is by the private sector it is not socialized you have proven you are misinformed once again

i have other obligations that are very important to me that deal with my family which i will not shirk. that is where the rest of my time goes. and how is it fooli9sh to believe a system where the government pays would lower cost when every country that has a system where the government pays pays less per a person than we do. i'm sorry but you are the one who is refusing to face the facts. just because you are older than me doesn't make you smarter or more knowledgable than me

Get real, dude!!!! If there are obligations to meet then that's NOT "available time." Do you actually know SO little as you come across here?? Available time means time that isn't already allocated or obligated. Sheesh!!

And you've really stuck your foot in it here - PROVE to me that EVERY country that has UHC pays LESS per person than we (individuals, companies, retirement plans) do. You cannot do it!:bugeye:

if it is by the private sector it is not socialized you have proven you are misinformed once again

No, you've just proven that you have no understanding of the logic involved in economics.

Dream on, dude, the American people as whole understand the whole thing much better than you do - that's exactly why we don't have that system already and why they don't want to buy into it now, either. (Or have you failed to notice how hard a time you are having here trying to sell this nonsense??)

Get real, dude!!!! If there are obligations to meet then that's NOT "available time." Do you actually know SO little as you come across here?? Available time means time that isn't already allocated or obligated. Sheesh!!

And you've really stuck your foot in it here - PROVE to me that EVERY country that has UHC pays LESS per person than we (individuals, companies, retirement plans) do. You cannot do it!:bugeye:

i already have if you looked at my sources and checked out their documention you would know that already

the world health org has good stats on what countries spend per capita on health