dear respectful thinker :
if it is an axiom that thought is only sharpened and revised by thought, it is also an axiom that the wider your comparison between different thoughts is, the deeper and closer to the truth you are .
why Koran seems strange and difficult to discern to many people ?
why in the same time some thinkers claim the opposite about the same book?
is the quranic look to the Human being is inferior ? where it lies compared to other dogmas ?
many questions are answered in multiple parts essay, about the pillars of islamic visioning, and how they differ from the other religion's . here :
http://www.mediafire.com/?jttav4wrv2kf4af
thanks for your time , and wishing for your feedback .

I think that thought brings us farther away from truth. Stop thinking and ease your mind.

I think that thought brings us farther away from truth. Stop thinking and ease your mind.

Agreed

I think that thought brings us farther away from truth. Stop thinking and ease your mind.

I am shaped and molded by my thoughts, how can you ask that of me darling. :)

How do you know those thoughts are your own?

What's "visioning"?

And do I need to make an appointment with my ophthalmologist to know?:D

And during my appointment, will the doctor cover one of my eyes and have me read from a chart of Arabic letters...?:bugeye:

How do you know those thoughts are your own?

I think (pun intended), that of the nearly 7 billion people on Earth today, the breakdown goes this way:

The thoughts of 25% are their own.

The thoughts of 29% are not their own, but rather belong to another 29% of the people on Earth.

Then, the thoughts of 15% of people are actually blue gelatin.;)

Meanwhile, the thoughts of 1% of people on Earth are actually the recycled run-off of a special fuel used by aliens from the planet Kroxxar of the SZDY4a.1378uP galaxy.:itold:

^yea, im on board with that

I think that thought brings us farther away from truth. Stop thinking and ease your mind.Sounds like the basic rule of religion. Stop thinking: you may decide that this is all bullshit and we can't let that happen.

Our uniquely massive forebrain is what distinguishes us from all other animals. We have the ability to even question and override our instincts. To "stop thinking" is to lower ourselves to the level of a worm.

Sorry, I'm not going to do that! My ancestors didn't spend millions of years evolving this wonderful brain, just so I can turn it off and act like a Christian.

why some people insist to apply what concerns faked religions including Judaism and Christianity to islam ?
and why some people insist to show their ignorance ?
strange that in a forum that is all about comparative religions, a person enters a post, showing that he knows nothing , and talks about what he doesnt know,
you have not even read the post. why should you open your mouth or write one word about it ?
either you do something useful , or just hide your ignorance

cleese,

Please explain Sura 9, Aya 28 of the Koran (or "Qur'an" for the politically correct multi-culturalist dhimmi) to me.

Thanking you in advance,
Hesperado

sir
this verse tells that Paganists are no more allowed to pray inside the mosque in Mecca. and tells muslims that muslims should not be afraid of the economic consequences that might result in that procedure.
you may study the noblest laws of war ever existed, that are represented in the islamic laws of war here in my other post .
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=103617
in that post, you would find insights about the meaning of fasting the islamic way, and you will also see how the discussions there hacked their way towards wars in islam and their laws.
dont rely on media. you have a diamond in your head. it is enough to tell you truth.
thanks

sir
this verse tells that Paganists are no more allowed to pray inside the mosque in Mecca. and tells muslims that muslims should not be afraid of the economic consequences that might result in that procedure.
you may study the noblest laws of war ever existed, that are represented in the islamic laws of war here in my other post .
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=103617
in that post, you would find insights about the meaning of fasting the islamic way, and you will also see how the discussions there hacked their way towards wars in islam and their laws.
dont rely on media. you have a diamond in your head. it is enough to tell you truth.
thanks

Thanks. The verse also says that "Paganists" (al-Mushrikun) are "filthy" (najasun).

Two follow-up questions please:

1) What groups are included among al-Mushrikun ?

2) Why are al-Mushrikun filthy?

first , you must understand that Quran was revealed in Arabic. so every translator is responsible for his own translation . filthy means dirty, and this is not exactly what the verse indicated, it indicated the spiritual and psychological deformation that does not permit them any more to get in the mosque and pray to their idols or statues .
Mushrikin, mean people who recognized the respectful creator of the universe, but accompanied him with less powerful Gods. "co-Gods" .
but , may i have my own question ?
have you read the essay about the meaning of fasting the islamic way yet?

...To "stop thinking" is to lower ourselves to the level of a worm...
Or the lilies of the field, who toil not, neither do they pray?

first , you must understand that Quran was revealed in Arabic. so every translator is responsible for his own translation . filthy means dirty, and this is not exactly what the verse indicated, it indicated the spiritual and psychological deformation...

Just on this point for now (I will get to the rest later).

The following website, with citations from the sihah ahadith, reports that among things that are najasun (plural of najis, translated variously as "impure" or "filthy") are the following:

dirt
human urine and feces
other liquids that come out of private parts (presumably including sperm)
excrement from animals
menstrual blood
dog saliva
dead animals
donkey's flesh
the foul smell that accrues on a long hem of a woman's abaya over time from contact with the dirt
the urine from a breast-fed baby

And these are not merely "dirty" things for physical hygiene -- they directly relate to a Muslim's "purity" during prayer.

Among the list above, for example, we see "menstrual blood" -- and that is why we see these Muslim teenage girls (http://www.jihadwatch.org/images/TorontoSchool_MuslimPrayer.jpeg) not only segregated from Muslim boys (as is customary in general) but also segregated from the other girls during prayer -- because they happen to be in the process of menstruation. And these prayers religious in nature and offensive to Western liberal tolerance of women in general and particularly during menstruation are occurring in a Toronto school (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:oWiIjS70xwEJ:www.jihadwatch.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/br0nc0s/managed-mt/mt-search.cgi%3FIncludeBlogs%3D1%26search%3DToronto%2 52018+toronto+school+site:http://www.jihadwatch.org/&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com) funded by taxpayers.

For, after all, according to Sahih Bukhari (the most authoritative collector of ahadith, or "sayings", of Mohammed):

[Mohammed said:] ...Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion." - Sahih Bukhari 1.6.301

Then we have good old Ayatollah al-Sistani, a much respected Islamic scholar and cleric of Iran/Iraq who, on his official website (http://www.sistani.org/index.php?p=251364&id=48), lists things that are najis:

"The following ten things are essentially najis [unclean]:

1. Urine
2. Faeces
3. Semen
4. Dead body
5. Blood
6. Dog
7. Pig
8. Kafir [unbeliever -- i.e., non-Muslims]
9. Alcoholic liquors
10. The sweat of an animal who persistently eats najasat [unclean things]."

So, in summary, it seems your attempt at making a distinction between "dirty" and "spiritually impure" is a distinction that is irrelevant in the Sunna (Islamic culture and law).

cleese,

In case I wasn't clear in my last post, I don't want to proceed in a discussion or debate by addressing multiple points. I rather like to proceed step by step -- one point at a time.

Thus, if you would please respond to my last post, then (if your answer satisfies the implicit question of my last post) I will proceed to other points you raised in your last post. If your answer does not satisfy it, I may have to re-phrase.

The following website, with citations from the sihah ahadith, reports that among things that are najasun (plural of najis, translated variously as "impure" or "filthy") are the following ....

What, aside from apostasy in the modern West, separates that list from the Bible? I mean, really. Pigs instead of donkeys, if we want to be exceptionally specific.

But aside from the fact that many Muslims still abide by their traditional rules and the fact that many Jews and Christians don't, it is hard to figure what point you're trying to make.

He appears to be discussing the absence of a clear firewall between physical 'filthiness' and spiritual 'filthiness' in Islam. The point you're trying to make is unrelated equivocation.

Hesperado
Again , every website, and every party is responsible for his own translation. i am saying this because i have been working as a translator for 8 years and understand the dilemmas of translation well.
filthy here means the spiritual deformation .
i hope after all that you are not chasing a virtual point that doesnt exist except inside your mind .
any way , have you read the original post , have you downloaded the article ?

[B]8. Kafir [unbeliever -- i.e., non-Muslims]


I thought to be a beleiver, it's not necessary to be a muslim, a beleive is who beleive in one and only God (and لم يلد ولم يولد ) so he's apparently not "mushrik", also a jew can enter a mosque btw, I mean, they're not "najis" (effcorse inless the other hygen rules and etc... are not applied), right?

there are always the lingual definition and the religious definition .
what you have mentioned is the lingual one, but according to islam, that most comprehensive and logic religion, there is one meaning of being believer... to be a muslim .
thanks

not every beleive is a muslim, a person who don't fast in ramadhan, don't donate to poor people (zakaat), don't pray, and don't go to hajj if he could, is not a muslim, while if he beleive in God, only and one, beleive in angels and in the prophets and messengers (and others) then he's just a beleiver.
Jews can be considered beleivers, while christians, i'm not sure of that, idk, since they beleive in "three" gods or something like that..jews are in fact, closer to muslims (in the matter of relegion) than christians, knowing that they lived together for centuries, intill europe started the colonisation of the world and then most jews went to the colony of "israel"

idk, what do you think?

not every beleive is a muslim, a person who don't fast in ramadhan, don't donate to poor people (zakaat), don't pray, and don't go to hajj if he could, is not a muslim, while if he beleive in God, only and one, beleive in angels and in the prophets and messengers (and others) then he's just a beleiver.
Jews can be considered beleivers, while christians, i'm not sure of that, idk, since they beleive in "three" gods or something like that

No, they do not.

Perhaps it would be best if you limited your comments to "idk" from now on.

No, they do not.



This is sciforums, and that is not an answer.



Perhaps it would be best if you limited your comments to "idk" from now on.

No.

This is sciforums, and that is not an answer.

Yes, it is, and yes, it is. Unless the preceding was not a statement? Ahh, you will come to wisdom.


No.

It's spelled "know". That's a homonym.

Yes, it is, and yes, it is. Unless the preceding was not a statement? Ahh, you will come to wisdom.


Ahh, inless you considered that an argument.



It's spelled "know". That's a homonym.

I said "No", it's spelled "N" "O", no, an indication to a negative rejecting answer.
In other languages, it is represented as: non; nein; لا; いいえ

if it is an axiom that thought is only sharpened and revised by thought, it is also an axiom that the wider your comparison between different thoughts is, the deeper and closer to the truth you are .

Truth is when a thought in your mind matches actual reality. Widening your comparison between different thoughts doesn't bring you closer to matching actual reality. Comparing your thoughts to actual reality is what ultimately does that. I also disagree with your if-then axiom statement; however, since the conclusion is simply incorrect on it's own it can slide for now.



why Koran seems strange and difficult to discern to many people ?

Many of us realize that the koran is a work of fiction like all religious books. It is neither strange nor difficult, it's simply not true.



why in the same time some thinkers claim the opposite about the same book?

The book has little basis in actual reality so there is little to compare it against. If there are two or more interpretations of some text and nothing objective in reality to compare them to then there is no way to discern which interpretation is correct (all possible interpretations can also be incorrect consequently).



is the quranic look to the Human being is inferior ? where it lies compared to other dogmas ?

Those are interesting questions.



many questions are answered in multiple parts essay, about the pillars of islamic visioning, and how they differ from the other religion's . here :
http://www.mediafire.com/?jttav4wrv2kf4af
thanks for your time , and wishing for your feedback .

Rather than read an essay, I would be interested in your personal answer to the questions: "is the quranic look to the Human being is inferior ? where it lies compared to other dogmas ?"

Ahh, inless you considered that an argument

Well, when you put it like that, no, your comment about Christians wasn't much of an argument. :shrug: Is this what you wanted to hear?

Well, when you put it like that, no, your comment about Christians wasn't much of an argument. :shrug: Is this what you wanted to hear?

I did say they may be considered "mushrik" since they worship 3 gods, or 3 in 1, some worship jesus as god or the son of god, etc..

for chrunchy cat
you said :
Rather than read an essay, I would be interested in your personal answer to the questions: "is the quranic look to the Human being is inferior ? where it lies compared to other dogmas ?"
my answer : in view of what you started your comment with, you should study it your self to find the answer . but simply, let me give you just few hints .
1- all the heavens including all stars and and planets , are all created and subjected to the use of the human beings .(kindly review chapter 45, verse 13)
2 -quran says that there are another 6 planets, that are exactly a replica of our Earth, and they are enclosed within the other heavens that are all subjected to human's use and benefit. so if the natural resources here are depleted , there are another six planets all created as a reserve for the human beings . kindly review (65-12) . so , is it possible for you now to know the answer ?. how about an honorable creature that the whole existence is made and subjected for him ?. what esteem he has in such a religion ?. further .......:
3 - unlike all other religions which have been corrupted , God... the Creator in islam, did not define his self the theological or christological way judaism or christianity did. but he did define his self as the following "he is who gave every thing his form, then instructed it" (20-50) . also he defined his self as the following "the Creator, the Giver of the functionality, the Giver of the form" (59-24) . so , who created the virus, then instructed it, after giving it its form that suits its functionality, is the God according to quran . apply the same to the whole existence . so , the scientist's life in the lab, is holy in quran just like the life of the prayer in the mosque. for that, islam is a religion of peace of mind and balance. where no contradiction between the ideal and the practical , or between life and faith.
there are a long road of studying ahead of you , and much more modesty, to acquire. before you give simple ... let me say politely, naive statements like those you gave here. (including reading the original essay posted here)
study first . good luck

2 -quran says that there are another 6 planets, that are exactly a replica of our Earth, and they are enclosed within the other heavens that are all subjected to human's use and benefit. so if the natural resources here are depleted , there are another six planets all created as a reserve for the human beings . kindly review (65-12) . so , is it possible for you now to know the answer ?. how about an honorable creature that the whole existence is made and subjected for him ?. what esteem he has in such a religion ?. further .......:

Some others explain it as 6 more replica earthes in parallel universes
Some others explain it, (the known universe, is the first "سماوات ؛جمع سماء "/"sky"/"heavens"), and the rest, are the next "layers" of the univerce or something like that, and the 7 earthes "أراضي " are in those difference universes.




study first . good luck

You're right about that too, I should read quran more often too.

as to the six layers of the same planet (Earth) . i apologize for not being able to accept that view. and i find it very weird and deficient.
the text says " and he created 7 heavens , and of the earth he created7 alike"
where did the text mention the vocab "layer" ?
another point , the talking about religion, or religions . the view that doesnt consider the uniqueness of each religion or can not distinguish between each two of them , is worthless .
alike is to say , religions are false and fabricated .
thanks for all readers and commenters

as to the six layers of the same planet (Earth) . i apologize for not being able to accept that view. and i find it very weird and deficient.
the text says " and he created 7 heavens , and of the earth he created7 alike"
where did the text mention the vocab "layer" ?
another point , the talking about religion, or religions . the view that doesnt consider the uniqueness of each religion or can not distinguish between each two of them , is worthless .
alike is to say , religions are false and fabricated .
thanks for all readers and commenters

Well it's my view, but how many people, or scholars went to explain it, about the layers thing, it doesnt sound right, kinda.
About the "view" when it's based on explenation and quranic study, or such, it shouldn't be completly false, it may be correct, may be not.

I did say they may be considered "mushrik" since they worship 3 gods, or 3 in 1, some worship jesus as god or the son of god, etc..

Then the definition of mushrik is mushy, since Christians do not worship three gods, nor 'three gods in one'; the latter supposition exists only in the distant sense of applying a convenient label. Those applying the term mushrik to Christianity are therefore spurred either by hatred or stupidity, if we accept your distinctions. You may choose either of those; it matters nothing to me.

Then the definition of mushrik is mushy, since Christians do not worship three gods, nor 'three gods in one'; the latter supposition exists only in the distant sense of applying a convenient label. Those applying the term mushrik to Christianity are therefore spurred either by hatred or stupidity, if we accept your distinctions. You may choose either of those; it matters nothing to me.

Eh, what's mushy?
& what are you talking about?

for chrunchy cat
you said :
Rather than read an essay, I would be interested in your personal answer to the questions: "is the quranic look to the Human being is inferior ? where it lies compared to other dogmas ?"
my answer : in view of what you started your comment with, you should study it your self to find the answer . but simply, let me give you just few hints .
1- all the heavens including all stars and and planets , are all created and subjected to the use of the human beings .(kindly review chapter 45, verse 13)
2 -quran says that there are another 6 planets, that are exactly a replica of our Earth, and they are enclosed within the other heavens that are all subjected to human's use and benefit. so if the natural resources here are depleted , there are another six planets all created as a reserve for the human beings . kindly review (65-12) . so , is it possible for you now to know the answer ?. how about an honorable creature that the whole existence is made and subjected for him ?. what esteem he has in such a religion ?. further .......:
3 - unlike all other religions which have been corrupted , God... the Creator in islam, did not define his self the theological or christological way judaism or christianity did. but he did define his self as the following "he is who gave every thing his form, then instructed it" (20-50) . also he defined his self as the following "the Creator, the Giver of the functionality, the Giver of the form" (59-24) . so , who created the virus, then instructed it, after giving it its form that suits its functionality, is the God according to quran . apply the same to the whole existence . so , the scientist's life in the lab, is holy in quran just like the life of the prayer in the mosque. for that, islam is a religion of peace of mind and balance. where no contradiction between the ideal and the practical , or between life and faith.
there are a long road of studying ahead of you , and much more modesty, to acquire. before you give simple ... let me say politely, naive statements like those you gave here. (including reading the original essay posted here)
study first . good luck

None of what you stated addresses the questions of:

"is the quranic look to the Human being is inferior ? where it lies compared to other dogmas ?"

Your "answer" (and I use that word loosely) addresses some random question that was never asked. I really could care less about Islam; however, the question quoted above would be interesting if there was an actual study performed where groups of people read different religious mythologies and rated them across different criteria.

You are on a science site in a comparative religion subforum. If you want to compare and contrast religions and how they are subjectively viewed by people then by all means do so. If you want to preach Islam then you have found the wrong site.

Eh, what's mushy?
& what are you talking about?

Mushrik. As a definition. It's mushy.


mush·y (msh, msh)
adj. mush·i·er, mush·i·est
1. Resembling mush in consistency; soft.
2. Informal
a. Excessively sentimental. See Synonyms at sentimental.
b. Given to or displaying mawkish affection or amorousness.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/mushy

Mushy. Unfixed. Without strong or rigid boundaries. Malleable. That's what I mean.

In other words, the definition is being applied as the speaker or user seems to like. How do I know? Because it's sometimes applied to Christians. Although it could be the speaker who's mushy, rather than the term. Anyway, the usage of mushrik is clearly mushy, whether term or speaker.

Mushrik. As a definition. It's mushy.



Mushy. Unfixed. Without strong or rigid boundaries. Malleable. That's what I mean.

In other words, the definition is being applied as the speaker or user seems to like. How do I know? Because it's sometimes applied to Christians. Although it could be the speaker who's mushy, rather than the term. Anyway, the usage of mushrik is clearly mushy, whether term or speaker.

There's no "mushy" in arabic... :bugeye:

There appears to be, in its usage. That's an English thing. Consider and report back.

There appears to be, in its usage. That's an English thing. Consider and report back.

"mushrik" is a word in arabic.
"mushy" is not a word in arabic, get over it.

No, no, you don't understand. I'm saying that the use of the word mushrik is very mushy. Geddit? Seriously, wakey-time here.

for : chrunchy cat
maybe you did not read my answer thoroughly , for that you did not recognize the answer. but again , there are 1000 islamic aspects show how honorable Human being in islam is, i mean either from the pure islamic view, or from the comparative view. starting from creating the whole universe and existence and subjected that whole universe in details to the use and beneficence of that crearture (do not you see any honorableness here?), to the war laws in islam (the way islam honored the captives and the enemies ).
when i wrote an essay about that here in this science forum, and administrators locked the topic saying it is breaching , which is not allowed here .
so, what should i do ?
by the way :
1- have you viewed my previous post "why muslims fast the islamic way, and how their fasting serves the Good of humanity?" . if not , i am asking you kindly to read, being sure that you would find interesting facts about that great religion .
2 - have you read the original essay posted here?
thanks

Oy never mind. Your response strongly suggests that you are interested in preaching islam rather than comparative religion.

never mind
i should not have expected any thing from you from the begining

Never mind. I can't believe I contributed to this thread. Now I just feel cheap and grimy.

never mind
i should not have expected any thing from you from the begining

cleese, once you value truth above how you feel then you will be much better at discussion in this forum. Until then, you are just going to end up as a lunatic being picked on and ignored... and correctly so.