actually its quite simple
the representative force of palestinians is several terrorist organisations (having civilians as an intended target without declaring war is terrorism)
these terrorist organisations profit from the war [from where do you think they get their cash)
of course they are financed by wealthy arab supporters outside Israel.

so - if there is no more warfare and is peace, then they would lose all their income.
Therefore every time as the peace talks begin there are several terrorist attacks which stops the peace process.

spend a week in Gaza, then come back and talk.

why should I?
nobody would pay me for it

constructive replies please

I get the feeling that most palestinians would prefer there to be a nonviolent solution - the fact that terrorists there tend to have a specific demographic is proof of this.

I'm relatively pro-Israel (I say relative in that I am never on the side of the hardline pro-Israelites in most arguements, but I'm no where near pro-Palestinian enough to be considered that side on this site), and even I can tell you that's not really true. Granted there are those on the Palestinian side who probably enjoy the financing. Granted there are many Palestinians who want war, who want to get rid of Jews and Israel period. But on that same note, there's Israelis who benefit from the war financially (though, there's veeeeeeery few of these. Overall much of Israel's economy suffers). And there's Israelis who want all the Palestinians out of Israel and want the war.

I can tell you Arafat doesn't want peace. Or if he does, it's on the grounds that Palestinians control the entire land (that is, I'm not sure he would actually want Jews to leave the land, he just wants control of it). Then again, does this matter anymore? It seems the major peaceful Palestinian movement may very well have a more moderate leader now! And I can't tell you how pleased this makes me. If the US had a Democrat in power, and Israel was somehow able to get Likud out of power, we'd have a much better chance at peace than we've had recently. Unfortunatly, it looks like Bush is coming back and Likud has little fear of loosing the next election. The only hope, in my mind, is that Israelis realize Likud may help them in times of war (-- I dont agree with this statement, I simply acknowledge that many Israelis vote this way), but in peace you need someone who, well, at least wants peace!

Avatar, U start posting something that resembles "constructive"...then I'll reply constructively ok?
While your at it, check out my Thread "Rafah"
There will be no peace untill something is done about the IDF, who hide behind their "Military" garb. They are nothing more than murderers.

Tyler:

I can tell you Arafat doesn't want peace. Or if he does, it's on the grounds that Palestinians control the entire land (that is, I'm not


and why not? It is their land after all, if the European Ashkenazim think they have sort of "religious" right to that land, fine, the Palastinians have 1000 times that right.
That land is Palastinian, it should be called Palastine, if the Askenazims want to kiss the wailing wall, fine become pally citizens, just like u are in the US, and u cankiss whatever u want.

the jews and palestinians (or philistiles then (sp)) are waring at that area since biblical times
that territory will belong to the winner and the game is not over yet

There will be no peace untill something is done about the IDF, who hide behind their "Military" garb. They are nothing more than murderers.
don't make me laugh - who chose innocent civilians as their targets?
palestinian terrorists/representatives, no?

Tyler - Arafat has no power over all those terrorists. Nobody has

http://www.jews-for-allah.org/Jews-not-for-Judaism/Arab_Jews.htm

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/






don't make me laugh - who chose innocent civilians as their targets?

and who are the IDF shooting down each day? innocent civilians

I dont want u to laugh, I'd like u to think.

you don't have to insult me
I wouldn't have posted my thoughts if I hadn't thought about the situation
the situation is that arab terrorists are attacking a legitime country and its government and citizens
they have clearly showed that they want no peace and that their goal is to get rid of all the jews
Thay want palestine and agree on no compromis
politics which have no compromis is exremism, because politics itself is an art of compromis
if politics doesn't work for such people then all that is left is a clear and effective military response, hopefully eliminating all terrorists

the situation is that arab terrorists are attacking a legitime country and its government and citizens


How is Israel "legitimate"?

and where did I "insult" you?

1. legitime - accordant with law or with established legal forms and requirements
2. I'd like u to think.
but I don't mind

so stealing land from the Arabs is legitimate?


and that their goal is to get rid of all the jews


You're having a hard time distinguishing jews/judaism with Zionism.

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

so stealing land from the Arabs is legitimate?
it was an English colony which they had rights to give to anyone they want
I'm not talking about ethics here, I'm talking about rights
and besides- you wouldn't call Jerusalem an arab territory, no?
you know ther ei s that wall, and all....
You're having a hard time distinguishing jews/judaism with Zionism.
maybe

were people displaced when israel was created or was it just empty land?

3,000 - 2,000
Early Bronze Age.Arrival and settlement of the Canaanites (3,000 - 2,500 BC)
ca. 1,250
Israelite conquest of Canaan.
965 - 928
King Solomon (Sulayman), construction of the temple in Jerusalem.
928
Division of the Israelite state into the kingdom of Israel and Judah.

right
the Israelites had the first established kingdom there
a legal state, not some encampments

right, and all the zionists are Ashkenazim, who are of euro slav background, they have no connection with the hebrew israelites

the only jews who have sort of connection to the ancient israelites are the Mizrahim,(ARAB JEWS) who are dead opposed to the state of israel

like I said before, if the ashkenazim want to kiss their wall, fine , become citizens of Palastine, just like the zionists are good little US citizens.

right, and all the zionists are Ashkenazim, who are of euro slav background, they have no connection with the hebrew israelites

really? how did they become jewish? if jewishness is thru bloodline and the first jew is israelite, dont all jews become the same?

thanks (pardon my ignorance)

thats like saying all Muslims on the face of the planet today are direct decendants of the Quresh tribe. I'm a Muslim, of Pakistani origin, I have no bloodline connection to the Quresh, or any other Arab tribe. My forefathers converted from Hindus and sikhs.

there you have your answer my friend.


PS: spookz, talking of Hindus, I just checked out one of your posts (site feedback) u seem to know a bit of hindi yourself;)

The problem I see is that the moderate Palestinian is not allowed to be armed. This situation happens alot. The result is that they can be easily pushed around by both sides and target without worrying about being retalitated. IDF can slaughter moderate Palestinians. The PLO can slaughter moderate Palestinians. They have no defence so it dosent matter if the moderate Palestinians want peace the power is held by the extremist on both sides.

well I'd say that even the extremist Pally's have no real power. the real power lies squarely with the Israeli Govt, and IDF (both of which receive funding from the US)
Furthermore the Extremist Pally's are the direct result of the appaling situaton there, specifically the treatment of the IDF of palastinians, (Gazza is totally surrounded by the IDF, and they routinely pick off pally civvies in the street) and of the fundemental issue of the zionists taking the land from the Palastinians, well more specifically the Brits giving the land to the zionists.

Avatar

these terrorist organisations profit from the war [from where do you think they get their cash)


actually the resistance movements have priorities higher than terrorist attacks . Havent you noticed they are only using it for means of retalliation ? Have you ever seen what authority a group as Hamas has ? They could do a lot better than this if their motives would remain in war economy .


Therefore every time as the peace talks begin there are several terrorist attacks which stops the peace process.


Peacetalks are being sabotaged because people are being sold out . Peace isnt the same as surrendering .

Sparks

I get the feeling that most palestinians would prefer there to be a nonviolent solution - the fact that terrorists there tend to have a specific demographic is proof of this.


what is this specific demographic you speak of ? Hamas holds about 30% , and the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades are actually because of a competition struggle for the peoples' support .

Tyler

Granted there are many Palestinians who want war, who want to get rid of Jews and Israel period.


This isnt true . They simply dont want a Zionist state that makes it possible for every Jew in this world to come in and chase peoples out of their homes . This is what has been going on since 48 , before that many Mizrahi and Sephardim lived peacefully with Muslims , this situation can be brought back even with the Europeans , but not if the Europeans (vast majority of Israel) are ruling killing discriminating and oppressing .


But on that same note, there's Israelis who benefit from the war financially (though, there's veeeeeeery few of these. Overall much of Israel's economy suffers).


I think US-Israeli arms business has been great


And there's Israelis who want all the Palestinians out of Israel and want the war.


Check last elections , Mizna lost big time , Israel has spoken .


Or if he does, it's on the grounds that Palestinians control the entire land (that is, I'm not sure he would actually want Jews to leave the land, he just wants control of it).


Not true , Arafat is after a Palestinian state . A Palestinian state isnt a Israeli ruled and occupied region . The Israeli can have their Zionist state according to Arafat , if the Palestinians can have theirs as well .


Unfortunatly, it looks like Bush is coming back and Likud has little fear of loosing the next election


next ? they just won couple months ago .....

Avatar

the jews and palestinians (or philistiles then (sp)) are waring at that area since biblical times


What are you comparing here ? The phillistenes arent the Palestinians genetically , neither are the Euro Jews Hebrew Israelite .


don't make me laugh - who chose innocent civilians as their targets?


How is a member of the IDF an innocent civillian ? Or didnt you know the entire population of Jewish Israel (xcept for elders and kids) are members of the israeli army ? What is this , a time out ? Changing outfits ? I dont think so


Tyler - Arafat has no power over all those terrorists. Nobody has


If the Al Aqsa Brigades didnt come along , Hamas (maybe together with Islamic Jihad) would take over .

Why is an through the years evolved peoples (CIVILLIANS) resistance organization become to be called terrorist , because they have no US imported tanks as the Euro-Jews have ?


their goal is to get rid of all the jews


This isnt true , its not about religion , its not about all the Jews , its about those colonists coming in from Europe with their US armor .


. legitime - accordant with law or with established legal forms and requirements


who's law ? authority's law . who's the authority ? israel


it was an English colony which they had rights to give to anyone they want


excuse me , so the brits had right to give OTHER peoples land to anyone they like ? So if I kick you out of your house I have the right to give it to your neighbour ?


and besides- you wouldn't call Jerusalem an arab territory, no?
you know ther ei s that wall, and all....


So ? Why isnt it Arab territory ? Didnt you know everybody there used to speak Arabic untill those zionists came ? There are Arabs who are Muslim , Christians and Jews my friend . Arabs were there before Islam . If you mean its not Muslim ONLY , then indeed , as the Christians and Jews are as much entitled , but thats something different than Arab .


the Israelites had the first established kingdom there


1)before the Israelites came there it was Arab
2)european ashkenazim colonists arent Israelite , but a mixture between Germanic Slavic and Turkic .

spookz

really? how did they become jewish? if jewishness is thru bloodline and the first jew is israelite, dont all jews become the same?


A Turkic peoples between Byzantium and the Caliphat in central Asia (the empire was called Khazaria) converted to Judaism as they wanted to remain independant between the 2 religious powers (Caliph=Muslim Byzantium=Christian) . As the empire collapsed the peoples went into Europe , mixing in with the natives . The Ashkenazim Jews are their decendands , didnt you notice how all Jewish peoples just look like any other peoples from the region ? You wouldnt tell the difference between a german jew and german christian , or a bulgar jew or bulgar christian , yet the difference between bulgar and german is obvious . Yes they are a peoples , culturally , religiously , but not genetically .

Even if they would have Hebrew ancestors , they mixed in so heavily (something the European jews especially are known and were hated for , Hitler felt fooled) they adapted the "race" of the natives .

As far as this is related to the Palestinians , as they have been in the region always , they have their roots not only in Arabians and Turks , but also in Hebrews that remained in the region after the fall of Israel 2g years ago . Of thos today there are the Mizrahi as Jews , while all the other converted over the years first to Christianity later to Islam .

As far as the "right to israel" argument goes . If it is genetic-historical the euro-jews loose out , and if its religious they tie with christians and muslims as they have "religious" rights as well .

excellent!!! i noticed you had mentioned this (khazar) previously but i was too lazy to investigate further.

damn them them to hell then. kick those frikkin foreigners out!

:D

dude you sound like a member of Hamas:D

allah
excellent!!! i noticed you had mentioned this (khazar) previously but i was too lazy to investigate further.

damn them them to hell then. kick those frikkin foreigners out!


The euro jewish zionists used their religion and cultural remainings as an excuse to own land in Israel , and they have started their identity make-over project , it shows with the wonderfull way how they change their original native (russian , german etc) names into Hebrew names (Arik Scheinerman=Ariel Sharon) , they have also Hebrew as their national language while about everybody has a Yiddish dialect as a native language .Their result : the kids . They speak Hebrew , they identify as Hebrew , they are Israeli born . we are in the middle of this make-over proces , in 50 years the vast majority of Israel will be having a native Hebrew tongue , and the Palestinians will be stuck to their religious and oppression arguments , having lost out on history for good .

Originally posted by Allahs_Mathematics
So ? Why isnt it Arab territory ? Didnt you know everybody there used to speak Arabic untill those zionists came ? There are Arabs who are Muslim , Christians and Jews my friend . Arabs were there before Islam . If you mean its not Muslim ONLY , then indeed , as the Christians and Jews are as much entitled , but thats something different than Arab .


We all know that the Palestinians have had a rough deal in the Holy Land, and that they deserve their own state. But doesn't Israel have the right to continue to exist in areas where the Israeli Jews are a majority? Wasn't this what the Oslo Accords were about?

There is an immediate problem with this argument. The Israelis created a majority Jewish population in Palestine by forcibly expelling Palestinian Arabs in 1947-49 and denying them and their families the right to return to the territory of their origin. At the same time, under the Law of Return, Jewish people of any nationality are entitled to Israeli citizenship upon arrival in Israel, even if they have never been there before. The only way Israel could create a Jewish majority population on its territory was to drive out 700,000 Palestinian people, prevent them and their children from returning, strip them of land ownership, and wage a series of wars against any Palestinians that resisted. The Oslo Accords, which were signed by Arafat without the consent of his own PLO organisation, let alone the Palestinian people themselves, offered not a viable state but a Bantustan. Under the terms of the accord, Arafat's 'state' would have constituted around 20% of the original Palestine, been broken into 220 pieces by Israeli roads and been pockmarked with armed Zionist settlements and Israeli army bases. Devoid of heavy industry or a proper infrastructure, such a 'state' could have served only as a crash pad for Palestinians forced to cross its borders every day to work in Israel. No wonder so many Palestinians reject the Oslo Accords today.

some deal eh?

israel will always control that land.god promised the jews that he will give that land. no use in trying to fight god.

israel will always control that land.god promised the jews that he will give that land. no use in trying to fight god.


According to rael the space-aliens are coming to tell who they promised the land for themselves as soon as the embassy is build in Jerusalem .

:rolleyes:

PS : Hebrew Israelite doesnt equalize with Jew , but hey ......
what are we to expect from my man edgar here .....

LMAO

Avatar, what kind of peace should the palestines in your opinion be willing to accept ? How is the country divided for example ?

a federative country
palestinians are given a strategically not important territory

the problem is that they atm want the most strategically important territory in all of Israel
most of Israels' water supply is located there. Also the territory is rather high above all other land and it is death easy to cannon reach most of it (including the main cities)

No, no no.
Avatar, I'm sick of repeating myself, but what the heck.
That land is Palastinian, no ifs ands, or buts about it. it should be called Palastine. The Ashkenazim are quite welcome to become citizens, just like they are of the US, they can practice their religion, but sovreignty is Palastinian, but this will never happen.

Edgar:
israel will always control that land.god promised the jews that he will give that land. no use in trying to fight god.

they will yes, but only due to US funding, and IDF brutality.

what the hell has God got to do with it?
when did God promise this?

spookz: good stuff, u got a link for that info?

Let me just say that I take the side of the Palestinians. Whether the land belongs to the Jews, or whether it belongs to the Palestinians is not the main issue.

The main issue is that the Palestinians are DISENFRANCHISED. Regardless of whether the land belongs to the Palestinians or not, one thing is for sure: Palestinians deserve to be able to vote for the governments that control them.

This is why I consider Israel an evil state. You really have to be at a low level of civilization to be disenfranchising individuals based on their religion. One of the reasons the US declared independence was because of "taxation without representation". In Israel it's "occupation without representation". What legitimacy does a government have over a group of people if the people aren't allowed to vote for that government?

As far as I can see, Israel has only two legitimate choices:

1) If Palestine belongs to Israel, then Israel should give all Palestinians the right to vote for their government (Israel).

2) If Palestine does not belong to Israel, then Israel should get the f#&% out of Palestine.

And in the spirit of civilized behaviour, Israel should give Palestinians full citizenship rights until the final decision is made.

One more thing, terrorist attacks are no excuse for continuing to disenfranchise millions of Palestinians.

pros:

One more thing, terrorist attacks are no excuse for continuing to disenfranchise millions of Palestinians.

no, it's no excuse. But gaza is a hell hole right now. The israeli bulldozers are working day and night completely leveling Rafah. They claim that they are destroying the houses of "Terrorists" (!!!!) The bulldozers have already killed American ISM member Rachel Corrie.
There are no Terrorists (strictly in the Palastine issue, this is not my views in other areas) I really believe this. There are just youngsters in extreme circumstances reacting to the very reall, palpable daily IDF brutality.


1) If Palestine belongs to Israel, then Israel should give all Palestinians the right to vote for their government (Israel).

you mean the less than 20% land area "given" to the Palastinian people "IS" Palastine, whereas I dissagree, I believe that the entire land area, ie: what is Israel today PLUS the scraps of land the Pally people are rotting in IS PALASTINE, all of it is.

the palastines shouldn't need to be "given" a right to vote, the jews should be given a right to vote in Palastine....yes yes I know they (jews) have an overwhelming majority in terms of numbers...i'm talking ideally.

bhudmaash,

yes yes I know they (jews) have an overwhelming majority in terms of numbers...i'm talking ideally.

You're wrong. If every resident of Israel Proper, the Gaza Strip, and the West Bank was allowed to vote, Jews would only account for a little over 50% (and that wouldn't last very long).

???...I dont have the exact figures, but isnt it approx:

5 million odd israelis : 1.2 million Pallys??
the exact figures maybe wrong, but I'm sure the ratio is about that


Edit:

There are 3 million Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. There are a total of 6.1 million Israelis of whom 1 million are of Palestinian origin.2

from:

http://www.newint.org/issue348/facts.htm

bhudmaash,

In the Gaza Strip, there are 1,225,911 Palestinians and 5,000 Jews.

In the West Bank and East Jerusalem there are 2,163,667 Plaestinians and 364,000 Jews.

Israel proper has a population of 6,000,000 of which 80% are Jews.

Total number of Jews in Gaza, West Bank, and Israel = 5,169,000

Total number of non-Jews in Gaza, West Bank, and Israel = 4,589,578

The non-Jews figure excludes the Palestinian refugees outside of Palestine/Israel.

Also, the Palestinian population is younger than the Jewish population.

Edit: I used the CIA World Factbook : http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/we.html

The main issue is that the Palestinians are DISENFRANCHISED


I completely agree , the major problem is indeed not who's land it is originally , it is aboutwho's being chased around by who and who's being opressed by who .

But it is important to keep in mind the arguments that are historically and religious , because it is these arguments that the Israeli use to justify theit colonization .

Its amazing how in this situation the argument of the occupiers is not only refuted , but how a totally different argument is decisive in concluding whats up .

Pros:

You're wrong. If every resident of Israel Proper, the Gaza Strip, and the West Bank was allowed to vote, Jews would only account for a little over 50% (and that wouldn't last very long).

ok,ok...first of all to get to your above statement, the pallys would have to have the right to vote, ie be Israeli citizens, ie have the same rights as jews...which yes is some resoloution agreed. however It's a hell of a concession, giving up your own land and sovreignty, to be governed by the people who took your land in the first place. No the above scenario wouldn't be accepted by the Palastinian people, and it is not wanted by the Israelis.
I think the land area should be equally distributed 50%-50%, ie separate Israeli and Palastine states, even that would be a concession, but what the heck, this is all theoretical right now. Problem then arises of what to do with jerusalem..hmm well in this 50-50 split scenario some would argue make it under UN control..yeah right...nah give it to the Palastinians....(like that'll ever happen)

Originally posted by Avatar
why should I?
nobody would pay me for it

constructive replies please

How absurd, the jewish terrorists DID NOT YET ACCEPT THE ROAD MAP FOR PEACE 3 WEEKS AFTER IT WAS PUBLISHED.

bhudmaash,

I agree with you. The best thing would be to split Palestine/Israel 50/50, half for the Palestinians and half for the Jews. Unfortunately, this would lead to a mass migration similiar to what happened in India/Pakistan (but not that large).

As for Jerusalum, give it to the Christians. :D

Seriously, Jerusalum should be a country-city, like the Vatican, run by a council that consists of one third Muslims, one third Jews, and one third Christians.

the problem with a 50/50 split is the nature of the split, ie how exactly would you split the land? along the north/south axis, or along an east/west axis? Well looking at the basic shape of the whole area of land, esentially it's a longish sausage shape, so a split along the north/south axis would result in two very thin slivers of land. Then who would get which? One sliver would obviously border the dead sea, closest to syria/jordan, whilst the other sliver would border the med sea. so who gets which sliver? The israelis I dont think would like to be sandwhiched between Palastine and syria!! BUT if they DID take that piece, they would get Jerusalem, hence the Palastinians would contest THAT piece too. OK, so lets split the land along the east/west axis, leaving us two halves, a northern half and a southern half. But AGAIN jerusalem would be a sore point, if you look at a map of Israel, you'll see that any such split along the east/west axis, would run through jerusalem!...so whoever gets the northern half would want jerusalem in their half, and vice versa.
No...ain't gonna happen. :bugeye:

bhudmaash,

I would split Israel/Palestine into north and south with a curved border that would have Jerusalem sandwiched between the two countries. No one ever said that the border must be a straight line.

Religious sites should be the least determining factor in splitting a country. Topography, natural resources, Water sources, major rivers, ect......are the boundaries that could be used for division basis. You have to ensure that both sides obtain equal water rights. and are in no position to cause the other harm by polluting or obstructing their water course.

Pros:


like have it in some sort of "no man's land"? on pronciple I agree....
But then that begs the question, who will govern it? And more importantly, the citizens of jerusalem, they would then be governed by said Authority agreed? then you'll get all manor of legal nitty gritty problems, like just for example an Israeli kid steals from a palastinian shop, the palastinians would want that to come under palastinian legal jurisdiction, arguing the shop owner was palastinian, the Israelis would argue vice versa, then whoever WOULD be governing jerusalem would be forever be getting it from both sides....lets give it to the french! :D

How would they know the Palestenian muslim kid from the Israeli Jewish kid, they're both brown and circumsized.

Originally posted by Flores
Religious sites should be the least determining factor in splitting a country. Topography, natural resources, Water sources, major rivers, ect......are the boundaries that could be used for division basis. You have to ensure that both sides obtain equal water rights. and are in no position to cause the other harm by polluting or obstructing their water course.

Hef, you're a civil engineer, so this is your area of expertease. Would such a north/south split be feasable based on the factors you have outlined?

Toss me a good map, one that shows most detail. I'm too lazy to find one. The map should preferabaly show areas developed by the israelis, major cities, settelment camps, ect, if not, just tell me where are they clustered. Also, what is the current populations for each side?

just off hand....try this for starters, not brilliant detail, but hey...it was in my browser memory.


http://www.newint.org/issue348/facts.htm

this is better.

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/israel.html

Don't yell,
After looking at the map, I prefer a 2/3 1/3 division. The Palestenian get 1/3 in the north, the confined corner, and the Israeli gets 2/3 in the south and keep Jeruselum.
http://www.templebuilders.com/maps/maphtm.htm

Look at this map. Palestenie would share a border with Lebanon and Seria, and so no future border conflicts of Israel with Lebanon or Syria. The two countries would be separated at the river running laterally south of Samaria. All settelment in the Golan hights have to be destroyed as part of deal.

Let the Israelis have Jeruselum for good, afterall, we have the first house of god build by Abraham in Mekkah and it's our corner stone, we don't need every single other mosque in the world to be under our control.

How would they know the Palestenian muslim kid from the Israeli Jewish kid, they're both brown and circumsized.


They wouldnt .....but not because they are both brown because they're both not ....

Anyways , I dont agree of 2 seperate states because of the following reasons :
1)The Palestinian state wouldnt be democratic and free becuase it would form a danger to israel
2)The Palestinian state wouldnt mean anything economically other than the dump it is today . It would be one of the poorest countries in the world .

So unless there is some justice & equality in other words $(+resources) and freedom , I dont agree with the state .


Average annual income in Israel and Palestine: Israel: $17,000, Palestine: $1,700


The Israeli military interventions in spring 2002 are estimated to have cost $350 million in damage to Palestinian infrastructure (schools, roads, waterworks, power supply, government buildings). In an entire year Palestinian public investment amounts to $200 million.13

:mad:

Now since nobody is willing to pay up and get out , I suggest the following : DEMOCRACY . I suggest the 400.000 USA troups in the neighbourhood drop in and take controll over the entire area from the IDF and Islamists , here a Democratic state of Israel/Palestine is established , with the right to return for EVERY person thats still alive (+family) forced into diaspora from the region . The euro colonists have no business there and wont be allowed anymore , everybody who already is there and is willing to live in peace is allowed to stay .

The deal is 1 multi-cultural democratic state of about 12 m peoples without a ethnic-class distinction (communize everything if necesarry) , no theocracy no apartheid .

Alllllaaaah......

I really mean Allaah to your idea. Meaning beautifull in slang Egyptian.

Allahs math:

Ameen.

Like I mentioned in my earlier post.....everything you said PLUS it should be called PALASTINE...but the ashkenazim won't agree, so NEW NAME, and NEW FLAG.
But then we get down to nitty gritty, the Govt, what form will said govt take? Totally Pally? mixed Pally/israeli?....
then the police force, constitution etc.....that's why it's easier to destroy a nation rather then build one

Hef:

hmm ..ok,....still studying the map

NEW NAME, and NEW FLAG.


I agree , as far as the name goes it should be bilingual , How about Shalom Alaikum or Salaam Aleichem .


But then we get down to nitty gritty, the Govt, what form will said govt take? Totally Pally? mixed Pally/israeli?....
then the police force, constitution etc.....


Representing the peoples who should be about 50-50

ok, good...we're getting somewhere, although the split option also seems fairly ok, but back to this option.
I fear the Yahudis would form the upper class, and the Pallys would drift into lower class, the yahudis would hold all the power regarding emplyment, hence discrimination would occour...rather like the blacks in US (or even god forbid SA)

about Shalom Alaikum or Salaam Aleichem .

Lol!, and what about u as prime minister, me as...I dunno foreign sec or something, spookz as head of secret services, Hef as minister for internal affairs!!!!:D

man....we'd kick ass.

Thanks Buhd, but I'm chicken, I want to live to be 80 and ugly. Politicians, specially good ones that start things all die young.

To AM, how do you suggest that we train the muslims minds to accept the Jews for more than infedels that they have been viewed as for the past 1000+ years. Also how do you manage this situation. The Jews consider the mother to be the official blood relation establishment, while the muslims consider the fathers to be. We would end up with kids that are 100% muslim and 100% jewish at the same time.

"Politicians, specially good ones that start things all die young"

yup, (unfortunately)...but DAMN...it would be one helluva ride..



Hef...speaking from my personal experience here in England, most of the right minded balanced well grounded Muslims don't think of the Jews as infidels. Yes acceptance would be a sticky point, too much water has flowd under the bridge, too much blood been shed, and the wounds would remain open for a long time.

Do you guys ever notice that the jews are actually reasonable when they discuss politics of the middle east. Spookz is jewish. On the other hand christians who have nothing to do with this problem are most hard headed idiots when debating the middle east....Take Jerrek as an example.

spookz is jewish?!!!.....nooooo waaaaaay man!


man that dude's an enigma, I thought he was a black guy? someone even thought he was a she!?

Well, he never came out of the closet with the information, but I could tell from his tones that he is ...He's too smart to be a christian. We're going to have to start a thread in free thought and label it, IS SPOOKZ JEWISH??? to find out.

The She part I don't doubt, not physically, but he could act both sexes very nicely...He is multi talented and very resourcefull.

well if he is...good on 'im
but I don't think so,...I always thought he was too pro Arab to be jewish...but hey it's all good., the dude even speaks hindi...!!!

however...will the real spookz please step forward!!!:D

I fear the Yahudis would form the upper class, and the Pallys would drift into lower class, the yahudis would hold all the power regarding emplyment, hence discrimination would occour...rather like the blacks in US (or even god forbid SA)


without a ethnic-class distinction (communize everything if necesarry)


what about u as prime minister


Im busy at the moment running a Stalinist Arabia , and it isnt going that well according to my man Nico , check the PNAC thread
:D


To AM, how do you suggest that we train the muslims minds to accept the Jews for more than infedels that they have been viewed as for the past 1000+ years. Also how do you manage this situation. The Jews consider the mother to be the official blood relation establishment, while the muslims consider the fathers to be. We would end up with kids that are 100% muslim and 100% jewish at the same time.


I say that 100-100 problem is for the religious "leaders" to figure out , I do propose a fake-monarchy/model-family of a muslim father and jewish mother that should set the example .

PS coould u please tell Galt on that British thread this thing about jews through moms and muslim through pops , he doesnt wanna take my word for it ......


Do you guys ever notice that the jews are actually reasonable when they discuss politics of the middle east


Are they ? Didnt notice that ........ especially not the ones from Israel . I do know several very orthodox jews who start raging like crazy when u mention Israel ........


On the other hand christians who have nothing to do with this problem


Dont they whine over Jerusalem ? Anyways I dont think its a matter of religion , but a matter of social position .

Spookz is jewish.
+
spookz as head of secret services
=Mossad
:bugeye:


man that dude's an enigma, I thought he was a black guy? someone even thought he was a she!?


A she-mestizo from mexico that is ....
but as she/he said , that was just "for the moment".

Originally posted by Allahs_Mathematics
[PS coould u please tell Galt on that British thread this thing about jews through moms and muslim through pops , he doesnt wanna take my word for it ......


You are on your own buddy, looking at his posts, he stinks as a raw onion....I aint getting in the middle of his layers.

Bhudmaash,
I agree with you, but the traditions say otherwise. When I wanted to marry my husband in Egypt, I was confronted with two problems. First, the Egyptian law won't allow a muslim woman to marry a non muslim man, although a muslim man can marry a non muslim woman because of that law you complain about. My husband couldn't tell them that he is muslim, he had to provide a certificate that shows that his paternal father is muslim......how rediculous, we had a peace of paper that says that my husband said AL Shehada in a mosque in Chicago, but no use with the Egyptians......so forget them....Second, the Egyptian law does not recognize the children of an Egyptian woman that marries a non egyptian man.....So talk about double discrimination......

Because of my marriage, I researched the validity of these rules quite a bit. No where in the Quran does it say that a Muslim woman have to marry a muslim man. The Quran says that both men and woman have to marry moemneen or believers....and who is to judge who is a believer and who is not. Do I have to hop on one foot and pee a certain way to be a believer??? What a rediculous day and age.

may I ask, what background is your Hubby from? I mean ethnic background, I gather he's not Arab right?

so the jews giv eup their heritage, and Palastinians likewise?..noo way man...what are the chances of that happening?


Nono u misunderstand me man , not the ethnical distinction that needs to go , its the ethnical distinctian of social classes that cant be tolerated (a rich ashkenazim upperclass etc) . Thats why I said communize everything if that is what it takes , and equally distribute to all 12 M new Shalom Alaikum-ers . It can be centrally planned for a while untill order is a bit established , and after that market economy can be re-introduced .

Nobody has to give up heritage , just $ .


this Muslim,patriach, jew:matriach thing, I've never bought into that. Life ain't that clear cut an' simple.


Hey thats the rule , weither its actually working or correct etc thats a totally different question .

He is hispanic, one of a kind salvadorian. We met in the school of engineering. He was doing his MS, while I did my BS. Unlike some arabic men, he worships the earth I walk on and wishes me well from his heart as my father does... and most importantly has plenty tact just like you. I wish I could tell him now.
Te amo, Te quiero, Te adoro

translate?
anyways sounds really nice.
I know this is real digression, but it's important and I want to talk about it.
I'm gonna sound realy contradictory, but hey...I can contradict myself till the cows come home, but I really do feel the father has an extremely important role to play in the upbringing of a young male. Maybe my circumstances makes me romantisise the role of the father, and the whole father/son thing...i dunno. But I really do believe that 16 and over is an extremely crucial time for a kid, and I believe thats when a young male needs a good strong father figure and role model, and I feel tht most dads actually don't realise this, or they totally underestimate the effect they have on their sons.

Te amo, I love you, Te quirro, I like you, Te adoro, I adore you. In case you meet a hispanic girl, it will come in handy.

I agree with you about that father role, but when life gives you lemons Bhudmaash, you have to make lemonades, and you were not blessed with a good father, but look at you, you are a great guy with a good sense of life and how it should be.

I think a bit different than you though. I think the mother role is much more important and much more needed in raising the children. Usually the mother is the one that teaches the kids religion and traditions. Fathers don't have too much patience with little kids anyways, they want their wife to spit out an 18 year old boy that can immediately talk about sports, cars, and politics. It is the mom that know the detail, that won't mind looking inside the diaper hard enough to find out if it's normal. Moms tell bed time stories and explain to their kids the first concept of god and the moons and stars. My 4 year old daughter keep asking me to tell her the story of prophet Muhammed. Moms can simplify the most complicated subjects for fresh minds to absorb.......I have many muslim friends who married christians and the kids are christians....Because the moms taught them so. I'm not telling you not to marry a christian girl, but to acknowledge that she will have tremendous impact on your children and it won't be you with the big stick deciding what everybody should breath today.

I have to go today.....catch you tomorrow.;)

Hey everyone...

I agree in principle with the earlier ideas of Bhudmaash.

Instead of splitting the land up for each, it should be one country called Palestine.

The gov't should be religiously neutral, and sponsor all religions and houses of worship.

If you say that there is an Israeli majority: not if you let the refugees come. Even with just the Palestinians in Israel and the occupied territories, there are almost more Palestinians now than Israelis, and since the growth rate of the Palestinian population is much higher, it can be expected that very soon there will be more Palestinians in Israel and the occupied territories than Zionists/Israelis etc.

If the Zionists living in Israel right now want, they can become citizens of Palestine, but they'll be the minority in a Palestinian state. They will have seats in parliament, and there will be constitutional laws to protect them from harassment and discrimination.

I think that the Ashkenazim should leave Israel for Europe or the US (some were born there, and quite a few even have dual citizenship with the US!), but that isn't going to happen, and they already live there.

If the Zionists can't accept the new Palestinian state, then they can leave. It's their choice.

And of course the Arab Jews are welcome in Palestine 100%.

And I must say, so many people say that Israel is a secular democracy. Well, that's a lie. Look at the flag-- it's not just colored stripes or a secular emblem, but rather a religious symbol of Judaism, the Star of David. How do you think this makes the Arabs and non-Arab Christians feel? What about the national anthem, Ha Tikva? All that shit about living in the shadow of Zion or whatever must make Arabs sick.

And in response to Avatar:

my friend in Gaza said in response to Avatar's post:
So the writer of the subject wants us to die in silence ?

Avatar, go... uhh... you know ;)

yup,

the new state doesn't even have to be called Palastine, ok we'll concede that much.....call it anything...(see earlier post from AM)
...but it just ain't gonna happen I'm afraid.:(


where've you been GB, vacation?