View Full Version : string theory - explain


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07-17-02, 01:34 PM
from all the physics theories the string theory is the hardest to grasp for me:o
the thing is that tomorrow I have to explain it to some unintelligent bastards who think that the earth is flat.

could you please point to some good and non sci-fi resources about the string theory.
Also could explain in short terms.

thanx:)

I'll join the discussion about it as soon as I get a better picture.

(Q)
07-17-02, 01:41 PM
http://superstringtheory.com/basics/index.html

Alpha
07-17-02, 01:51 PM
You want to use string theory to prove the earth isn't flat?!
Sounds like you need something a little more simpler. Ask them, "If the earth is flat, then what's holding it up?" Or something like that.

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07-17-02, 02:21 PM
no, but their intelligence is aproximatelly at that level...
I was laughed at when I told that according to the string theory there can be more than 4 dimensions.

thnx for the link, Q

(Q)
07-17-02, 02:33 PM
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No problem. Thed has a good handle on string theory. He's taught me a thing or two on the subject. :eek:

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07-17-02, 03:37 PM
In string theory, as in guitar playing, the string must be stretched under tension in order to become excited. However, the strings in string theory are floating in spacetime, they aren't tied down to a guitar. Nonetheless, they have tension. The string tension in string theory is denoted by the quantity 1/(2 p a'), where a' is pronounced "alpha prime"and is equal to the square of the string length scale. can you please explain me a little more about the tension and what forms it...what makes the string to be tense?

(Q)
07-17-02, 04:24 PM
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can you please explain me a little more about the tension and what forms it...what makes the string to be tense?

Look here under "String Tension"

http://library.thinkquest.org/27930/stringtheory1.htm

Alpha
07-17-02, 04:26 PM
Actually string theory is a little outdated. Look into M-Theory.

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07-17-02, 06:33 PM
you sure?:bugeye: :eek:

well, ok
(like there is a chioce)

overdoze
07-17-02, 06:50 PM
I can see easily enough how strings could correlate to particles. However, I'm having trouble visualizing how a tiny Plank-scale string could behave like a wave on the scale of kilometers (e.g. radio-frequency photons.) Could the experts clear this up for me? Much appreciated. :o

thed
07-18-02, 05:31 AM
Originally posted by (Q)
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No problem. Thed has a good handle on string theory.

Catches buck thrown at me. :) I'm not that sharp with string theory, it's a little more complex than I like. See the first link below for the hoary maths.

String theory comes out of a thing called Kaluza Klein theory (http://www-th.phys.rug.nl/~schaar/htmlreport/node12.html) and Yang Mills thoeries (http://www.claymath.org/prizeproblems/yangmills.htm).

Right, are we sitting comfortable. First off a dimension is only a thing needed to uniquely measure some event in spacetime. There is nothing sci-fi'ish about it, you can't travel to 'other dimensions' as they are in integral part of our Universe. In normal life we percieve 3 dimensions length, depth, breadth. Of course, you also need to specify <i>when</i> an event happened so you have to include time, t. In other words, the Universe is 4 dimensionsal.

The big change between Newton and Einstein is that in Newtonian physics time is the same for all people and independant of space. In Einsteinian physics time and space are interelated as 4 dimensional spacetime. Though Relativity comes out of problems with Electromagnetism in Newtonian physics Relativity does not include a description of Electromagnetism in General Relativity.

What Kaluza and Klein done was assume a 5th dimension. That is, a requirement for a 5th data point to uniquely measure things. In this 5 dimensional description of things you can describe the 4 dimensional space time and electromagnetism. The extra dimension 'wraps up' on a small scale (planck lengths) which is why we can't see it. What's more this is all done in a geometric description favoured by Relativists.

One of the big things favoured by Physics is that the Universe should be fundamentally simple. Maybe a bad assumption but 'simple' theories are favoured over complex theories. So, what happens next.

Back in the early 1900's Physics started finding 'fundamental; particles like the neutron, electron and proton. As detectors got better more and more fundamental particles where found. Things like the muon and kaon. Within a shortish time hundreds of 'fundamental' particles where found. Invoking the rule of simplicity it was obvious they where not fundamental at all. This led to the development of <A href="http://www.particleadventure.org">The Standard Model</a>. This is a description of particles using mathematical set theory. The set generators are used to produce tuples of particles in families. The set generators are called 'quarks', you need 6 of them. But you also have quantum chromodynamics that describes the interaction of the strong force, that needs 3 types of particles called gluons that come in 3 colours. You also have quantum electrodynamics that descibe weak nuclear forces, that requires a further 3 particles. Neither of these are predicted in the standard model. Alongside this lot you have electrons and neutrinos as fundamental particles.

Sounds a bit complex doesn't it. Too many particles and too many theories required. Let's invoke the rule of simplicity. Maybe the quarks, gluons, vector bosons and electrons are actually caused by something more simple.

I don't know much about Yang-Mills to be honest and don't know much it's historical imporance, perhaps James R does?

But anyway, what Brian Green and others done was assumed that all these particles where different examples of the vibrational modes of simple 1 dimensional strings. That is all there is to string theory. It describes particles as open or closed strings that vibrate. To do this though you have to play with complex maths and describe the Universe in several dimensions, just like Kaluza Klein done. That is where the theory was resurrected.

Great idea, on the face of it. The next trick was to then incorporate this string theory into General Relativity just like Kaluza Klein. To do that you need even more dimensions, about 11 at last count. The problem was that these 'simple' 1 dimensional strings threw wierd infinities in to the solutions, a sign something was wrong. So, they went a stage further and used 2 dimensional membranes, Brane Theory.

After that the theory looses me. You get into wierd, stange maths describing particles with highly advanced geometrical terms and using things like Kaluza Klein to combine it with Relativity.

None of this should be confused with another string theory involving Cosmological Strings created in the Big Bang. Same names, different ideas.

Alpha
07-18-02, 12:03 PM
Oh yeah, according to string theory there must be 11 dimensions, or 26 dimensions. They're the only ones that fit. I don't remember how, but it was shown that 26 dimensions doesn't work.
Anyway, there are 5 different versions of string theory as was mentioned in the above post. A genuis by the name of Edward Witten found that all 5 theories are actually all part of the same thing, just different aspects. So he put them together and came up with M-Theory. There's much debate as to what the "M" stands for. It's usually called membrane theory though, because in M-theory, particles aren't actually made of one dimensional strings, but 2 dimensional membranes in the shape of strings. This theory fits so well that it is often said that M-theory is discovered rather than invented.

A good book to read about this subject would be The Elegant Universe: Superstrings, Hidden Dimensions, and the Quest for the Ultimate Theory (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0393046885/102-9166652-8260152) by Brian Greene.

overdoze
07-23-02, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by overdoze
I can see easily enough how strings could correlate to particles. However, I'm having trouble visualizing how a tiny Plank-scale string could behave like a wave on the scale of kilometers (e.g. radio-frequency photons.) Could the experts clear this up for me? Much appreciated. :o

Yeah, and another thing that puzzles me. How would string (superstring, M) theory explain quantum nonlocality (as per EPR, for example?) Hmmm.....

Alpha
07-24-02, 07:53 PM
Quantum physics, and relativity merge rather nicely in M-Theory, but there is still much we don't know. There is a constant who's name I can't remember that is very important. When we plug in values for this constant it produces a wide variety of possible theories (seemingly infinite I think). It's proving very difficult to figure out what the value is, but once we do it'll be a breakthrough. Then we may have the answer to your question.

c'est moi
07-26-02, 03:17 PM
Thed, i love what you posted. if you got more of that, don't hesitate! such posts go on the c: drive overhere :cool:

thed
07-27-02, 03:16 AM
For the record, thanks to you. You see, we can be friendly :D

To be honest I'm not hugely comfortable with string/M-Brane theories. And not just because I can't follow the maths. The theoreticians are chucking about huge numbers of new hypotheses based on other hypotheses without any experimental verification. It is like a huge house of cards built on ice.

Last I saw I don't think M-brane theory makes any predictions that can be tested. That surely is the sign of a bad theory. It may be I am just lacking some details but it is as if the theoreticians are flailing around trying to find something in the models that they can test.

Two good books on this are Hyperspace by Michio Kaku and The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene. For a more technical overview try this one by Kaku. (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0387985891/qid=1027754061/sr=1-55/ref=sr_1_0_55/026-8960190-2749209)

Time will tell I suppose.

c'est moi
07-27-02, 08:10 AM
Right or wrong, I like to understand a lil of the history behind it: like this one came up with that idea etc. Like that you can understand why the things are the way they are today.

I like the idea of strings though, but like you, I have my doubts. The 11 dimensions only ... too complicated and we must favour the more simple things. I actually believe if we had even more knowledge than now, that we could come up with several theories, all equally good at predicting stuff with the only difference being the complexity of the maths behind it. I think the less complex maths would be telling the same thing, with less dimensions, less assumptions and a different way of visualising, that's all.