Yes we can!

Discussion in 'Politics' started by S.A.M., Aug 25, 2009.

  1. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    72,825
    So, yes we can:

    -continue rendition
    -keep Guantanamo bay open
    -continue bombing hapless civilians

    Change we can believe in.

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  3. superstring01 Moderator

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    After realizing that your links were anything but recent I debated about deleting your thread. First off, in order to make a good faith claim on these matters, you really should bother yourself with something a little more recent. Second off, you might actually want a link that supports your claims a little better. The whole point of the changes in this forum are aimed at obligating members to back up their claims with relative, timely information that is supported by an actual argument. If you can't manage that, then you can expect to have the thread be moderated. Good faith, SAM, where's yours?

    Where does it say that we are continuing to render people to other nations? Hell, have you posted ANY link on that matter? Or are we just supposed to take your word for it?

    As to Guantanamo, the article is about the continuation of military tribunals (which were set up, legally by the Congress to handle this matter) and NOT about keeping the detainess there. In fact, the whole accelerating process in the military tribunals is happening because Obama is demanding that each detainee be given their day in court. The Bush admin slowed the process because many within the administration knew that they wouldn't win the case within the tribunals. The process is not instantaneous, but people are being returned home (where they are accepted) and the process to bring them to the USA is moving forward. Obama doesn't just answer to himself on these matters: He has a Congress that he must consult with. In fact, your whole statement is an outright lie because the article admits that Obama's end-goal is to have the Gitmo prison closed by 2010.

    As to your point about Afthanistan, Obama never campaigned on pulling out of Afghanistan. In fact, he stated quite clearly that he would make that the central focus (instead of Iraq) when he got elected. The article you provided is about 8 months old and is about the usage of unmanned drones in the above mentioned arena. Where did it say that the Obama administration was targeting innocent civilians? Since all of Al Queda are civilians, it's kind of pointless to state the fact that the USA is targeting civilians, because. . . well, that's exactly what the nation is doing when they attack terrorist

    In fact, I think you know everything I just posted. You are one of the best informed people on this website and it's glaringly obvious that you left out a great deal of information in creating this hit peace. If you want to play stupid and have a tantrum about the USA, fine! More power to you. There's plenty of mud to throw. But unless you can actually come up with something better than this, well, I think you know where you're heading.

    ~String
     
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  5. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    So, looking past all the window dressing.

    1. What information has been released on the Gitmo detainees and their status?
    2. On what basis will the FBI detain and interrogate terrorism suspects? Whats the ROE? Where are the facilities? Who will monitor the interrogations? Where is the transparency?
    3. Yeah he did not say he would pull out of Afghanistan, he just continued that crappy policy as is.

    So, what has changed, exactly? I want to see some change I can believe in.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2009
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  7. superstring01 Moderator

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    I asked you to provide information supporting the OP and this is what I get? SAM. Do I need to quote the forum rules for you?

    Oh. I don't know. Pick up a news paper. People have recently been sent to places like Bermuda and Mauritius. Do a little digging. When you look ONLY for things that support your worldview, you'll never see anything else important, SAM.

    It's the FBI, the whole agency dedicated to investigating crimes without torturing them, who has a robust oversight mechanism with many facilities all over the world. I'll wait until the program comes online before I start bitching about it.

    Oh, so you admit that your expectations were either incorrect or that you posted this point in order to create some sort of false impression about the Obama administration?

    Well, first, you're not a citizen of the USA, so the "change" promised in the campaign wasn't really aimed at you. Second off, much has changed and is still changing. Moving the ship of state of the USA has been likened to moving a supertanker at sea. It doesn't turn on a dime. I think you know about these changes and the direction that Obama is trying to take the USA, but I think you leave them out because it serves your usual myopic "hate everything the USA does" purpose.

    ~String
     
  8. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    So they've been deported without any attempt to publish their stories or testimonies? Is this how war crimes are investigated?


    And I recall that it was the FBI that was in charge of the whole shebang to begin with who conveniently dropped the ball on 9/11 and have "no hard evidence" against Osama
    No merely that I don't see any change, just some musical chairs.

    I wonder how many people have to die before we see this mythical change.

    This final act by Obama has simply put him in the also rans as far as I am concerned. He's just another American, willing to destroy people and countries for his political goals. Nope move on over, there is nothing new to see here.
     
  9. Ganymede Valued Senior Member

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    While we're on the topic of deleting threads. Madanthonywayne has 3 different threads relating to Healthcare. If we're going to be consistent here please don't play favorites.
     
  10. otheadp Banned Banned

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    Do you mean that ... Obama has lied to you and on foreign policy he is continuing as G.W. 2.0? (or... actually, Cheney 2.0)

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    *gasp*

    Well, I say!
     
  11. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Actually, why would you expect these stories to be published? Not every crime hits the papers, and there are quite a lot of internees. Would the publication of these stories sway public opinion in any way? Are they accurate? Who would decide?

    I'm undecided on Afghanistan.
     
  12. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    I would like to hear the testimonies. The officers can confirm or refute them as they like with the evidence they have and medical professionals can examine the victims for evidence of torture.

    The "internees" are much less than 6 million.
     
  13. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    According to the original article, it says Obama is appointing a special interrogation unit in response to all the prisoner abuse that has been going on. Your conclusion that he is continuing as Bush did is false. It is exactly the opposite. He never said he would pull out of Afghanistan, and the UAV missile strikes have been highly effective on our desired targets, in spite of some innocent deaths.
     
  14. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Will any of these abusers be tried in an American court?



    Can we expect to see a publication with the names of those involved in prisoner abuse a la Nuremberg and conviction and sentencing thereof?

    Or is terrorism acceptable when it is home grown?
     
  15. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    I certainly hope they will be prosecuted, as well as the people that ordered it.
     
  16. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    72,825
    Me too. At the very least, I'd like to see them dishonorably discharged.
     
  17. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    Gulf News, August 25, 2009: Obama's Stance on Detainees is disappointing
    AndyWorthington, July 27, 2009 It’s Worse Than You Think
    Congressman Dennis Kucinich, August 25, 2009
    I too am disappointed in Obama's leadership. He is not championing reform, and without meaningful reform the USA is still bleeding out our credibility like we've never done before. We're dying as a respected world power.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2009
  18. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Out of curiosity, when was the US respected by everyone as a world power?
     
  19. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Respect as a world power died with the Bush administration.

    Superstring its called the crusade and hijacking of the WEP forums. Its not 'hate everything' the US does its hate everything non muslim westerners do. Good faith and all

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  20. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    Since when is the US in the business of publishing stories?

    You would prefer that these people were kept at Guantanamo so that they could... testify?

    Is there some impediment to the former detainees seeking to publish, or pursue legal redress against the US, created by their residence in other countries?

    "Publishing" of stories and testimonies is not how war crimes are investigated.
     
  21. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    12,061
    We were King of the Road, emerging from the Depression and WWII. But we badly lost our way after the Soviet collapse, and 9-11 drove us right around the bend. We don't know who we are, and where we're going at the moment, but standing on principle is the new start that I want to see.
     
  22. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    If only there was a consensus on what those principles are. The U.S needs to go back and seek out its core beliefs and yet still be unafraid to change and adapt them to a new world, reality and obstacles.

    I agree with you one when the U.S first was led astray.
     
  23. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Weeeell even in those hallowed days there was a slightly gamy stink to US foreign policy, as described by some quarters: Greece, that blind eye to Spain for so many years, nuclear weapons build-up, arms to the Indo-China War, and so on. Was the US really above all criticism in those periods?
     

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