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SciContest! Why can't matter be made of photons?
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BenTheMan's Avatar BenTheMan
Dr. of Physics, Prof. of Love (8,618 posts)
Old 08-11-08, 10:22 AM
 #1
Reply With Quote   BenTheMan is offline
Ok, this is the first ever SciContest.

The rules: entry is free. Anyone can participate. No trolling unless it's good, and I reserve the right to judge "good" in a completely arbitrary way. Serious entries are welcomed. The best entry will win a USD$25 gift certificate to Amazon.com, courtesy of me. This means you will have to send me some contact details, but it's ok you can trust me. The contest is over when I say it is, but I will give some notice (say...a week?) before I close the nominations.

To prevent overkill, I will accept three entries per person. No sock puppets.

New Rule: If you can poke holes in someone else's reason, then you should! Of course, someone else can poke holes in YOUR reson, as well.

Finally, the winning entry should be scientifically correct, and it should be phrased in such a way that everyone can understand. If you are a scientist, then you should explain things on the level that laypeople can understand. This is not to say that laypeople cannot enter, and (truth be told) my hope is that a layperson actually wins. If you are an amature, try not to confuse me! The judges will be me, and JamesR (even though he has no idea about this) and one other person who's not a moderator, and who will be chosen in a thread in "About the Members".

Ok, here goes. Keep it clean!

Matter cannot be made of photons. Why?

Last edited by BenTheMan; 08-11-08 at 11:19 AM..
ashura's Avatar ashura
the Old Right (3,611 posts)
Old 08-11-08, 11:03 AM
 #2
Reply With Quote   ashura is offline
Layman entry: Matter has mass. Photons are massless. Ergo, matter can't be made of photons.
kenworth's Avatar kenworth
dude...**** it,lets go bowling (2,034 posts)
Old 08-11-08, 11:05 AM
 #3
Reply With Quote   kenworth is offline
because they have no mass?
because they are always travelling at a constant relative speed and so there is no chance of adherence?
have i misunderstood the question?
BenTheMan's Avatar BenTheMan
Dr. of Physics, Prof. of Love (8,618 posts)
Old 08-11-08, 11:06 AM
 #4
Reply With Quote   BenTheMan is offline
Originally Posted by ashura
Layman entry: Matter has mass. Photons are massless. Ergo, matter can't be made of photons.
Entry 1: From ashura.
kenworth's Avatar kenworth
dude...**** it,lets go bowling (2,034 posts)
Old 08-11-08, 11:09 AM
 #5
Reply With Quote   kenworth is offline
i know you are going to absolutely hate me,but how are we defining matter?
BenTheMan's Avatar BenTheMan
Dr. of Physics, Prof. of Love (8,618 posts)
Old 08-11-08, 11:15 AM
 #6
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Originally Posted by kenworth
i know you are going to absolutely hate me,but how are we defining matter?
electrons, neutrinos, quarks.
CptBork's Avatar CptBork
Physics Grad Student (2,011 posts)
Old 08-11-08, 11:17 AM
 #7
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Matter has a rest frame and hence a rest mass, photons don't.
BenTheMan's Avatar BenTheMan
Dr. of Physics, Prof. of Love (8,618 posts)
Old 08-11-08, 11:17 AM
 #8
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Good one, but I think it's the same as ashura's, no?
CptBork's Avatar CptBork
Physics Grad Student (2,011 posts)
Old 08-11-08, 11:20 AM
 #9
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Well I don't like the idea of saying photons are simply massless, because they do have an energy, hence a mass equivalence. It's rest mass that physicists are talking about. Anyhow, I know someone's gonna come along with some QFT and kick my answer out into space.
Diode-Man's Avatar Diode-Man
Awesome User Title (1,177 posts)
Old 08-11-08, 11:40 AM
 #10
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Photons are products of excited (heated) atomic matter. The wave frequency (beats or waves per second) of the photons of white light are so high that it can reach 400 to 790,000,000,000,000 waves per second! (Tera-hertz frequency)

With such erratic motions it would be impossible for a photon to become a solid or permanent piece of any molecular or atomic configuration. If in a laboratory, one attempted to forcibly make a photon join in with say a particle of Earth dirt, the photon would just bounce away unable to be joined with the solid matter. It may be the case because the photon cannot be contained in a magnetic field.

Ultimately however, like electricity, we can only know what a photon DOES and not what constructs it, it is I believe, what I'm going to term a "base unit" of the Universe.

(I am a "layman"... have I come close on my statements? )

Last edited by Diode-Man; 08-11-08 at 11:51 AM..
funkstar's Avatar funkstar
ratsknuf (1,086 posts)
Old 08-11-08, 11:54 AM
 #11
Reply With Quote   funkstar is offline
Originally Posted by BenTheMan
electrons, neutrinos, quarks.
In that case: Because photons are fundamental and a photon is not any of the above?
Reiku
Banned (9,198 posts)
Old 08-11-08, 12:10 PM
 #12
Reply With Quote   Reiku is offline
Originally Posted by BenTheMan
Ok, this is the first ever SciContest.

The rules: entry is free. Anyone can participate. No trolling unless it's good, and I reserve the right to judge "good" in a completely arbitrary way. Serious entries are welcomed. The best entry will win a USD$25 gift certificate to Amazon.com, courtesy of me. This means you will have to send me some contact details, but it's ok you can trust me. The contest is over when I say it is, but I will give some notice (say...a week?) before I close the nominations.

To prevent overkill, I will accept three entries per person. No sock puppets.

New Rule: If you can poke holes in someone else's reason, then you should! Of course, someone else can poke holes in YOUR reson, as well.

Finally, the winning entry should be scientifically correct, and it should be phrased in such a way that everyone can understand. If you are a scientist, then you should explain things on the level that laypeople can understand. This is not to say that laypeople cannot enter, and (truth be told) my hope is that a layperson actually wins. If you are an amature, try not to confuse me! The judges will be me, and JamesR (even though he has no idea about this) and one other person who's not a moderator, and who will be chosen in a thread in "About the Members".

Ok, here goes. Keep it clean!

Matter cannot be made of photons. Why?
Is this a trick question, because in september 1997, scientists created matter out of clashing photons together.
Steve100's Avatar Steve100
O͓͍̯̬̯̙͈̟̥̳̩̙̳͒̆̿ͬ̑̀̓̿͋ͬͅ ̫̪̳͔O (2,223 posts)
Old 08-11-08, 12:10 PM
 #13
Reply With Quote   Steve100 is offline
If two particles with the same mass are made of photons, they must be made of the same amount of photons.
This would make the 2 particles have identical properties, and we already know that we can have particles with different properties and the same mass.
Therefore the particles cannot be made of photons.

mass = relativistic mass

Last edited by Steve100; 08-11-08 at 12:44 PM..
QuarkHead's Avatar QuarkHead
Remedial Math Student (963 posts)
Old 08-11-08, 12:12 PM
 #14
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A physicist (mad as a hatter)
Once pondered the nature of matter.
He concluded "it's light";
But we know that's not right,
Since the absence of forces
Would take less than two horses
To cause all matter to shatter.
Diode-Man's Avatar Diode-Man
Awesome User Title (1,177 posts)
Old 08-11-08, 12:15 PM
 #15
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Originally Posted by QuarkHead
A physicist (mad as a hatter)
Once pondered the nature of matter.
He concluded "it's light";
But we know that's not right,
Since the absence of forces
Would take less than two horses
To cause all matter to shatter.
What a fun poem!
Reiku
Banned (9,198 posts)
Old 08-11-08, 12:15 PM
 #16
Reply With Quote   Reiku is offline
In fact, not only have scientists made matter out of photons, but you also know that all matter with rest mass when encountering their antipartner reduces them back into photon energy. The process surely cannot be disputable.
Steve100's Avatar Steve100
O͓͍̯̬̯̙͈̟̥̳̩̙̳͒̆̿ͬ̑̀̓̿͋ͬͅ ̫̪̳͔O (2,223 posts)
Old 08-11-08, 12:19 PM
 #17
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I think quark head just won.
melodicbard's Avatar melodicbard
Registered Senior User (209 posts)
Old 08-11-08, 12:19 PM
 #18
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Photon does not have charge.
Matter can carry positive or negative charge.
Steve100's Avatar Steve100
O͓͍̯̬̯̙͈̟̥̳̩̙̳͒̆̿ͬ̑̀̓̿͋ͬͅ ̫̪̳͔O (2,223 posts)
Old 08-11-08, 12:25 PM
 #19
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Originally Posted by Reiku
In fact, not only have scientists made matter out of photons, but you also know that all matter with rest mass when encountering their antipartner reduces them back into photon energy. The process surely cannot be disputable.
Just because something is made out of something, doesn't mean it is made up of it.
Reiku
Banned (9,198 posts)
Old 08-11-08, 12:27 PM
 #20
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That can be disputed heavily. If photons, which are nothing but the simplest forms of energy can be made to interact so that their componants flux into a type of specific matter, then it stands to reason that photons can make matter. It has been proven experimentally.
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