Forward: I am writing this now in a different manner because my last thread was deleted on the basis that Skinwalker said I created the thread in his sub-forum to troll a member. More specifically S.A.M. Clearly my point was lost in the anger I felt from the open and direct hostile racism I was on the receiving end of… but my point is still valid and stands. So therefore I have tried to recreate this thread in a more civil manner. I apologize for my anger, but I don’t apologize for my previous post. I am going to leave out my response to the racist comments thrown in my direction against my family and I and try keep this as much to the point as I am able to. Reason for writing this post: In a debate about basic human rights.. more specifically, ‘The right to free speech’. I was informed by S.A.M that because I was a white South African I don’t really have a leg to stand on in regards to matters of racial debate. S.A.M was under the impression or trying to convey the impression that basically all the worlds problems and the worlds atrocities are the result of white males. When debating the history of her country… India, one of her posts implied that India was a country of roses and bunnies for 800 years before the English came along and colonized the area. S.A.M has also implied that when other cultures attacked the Asian continent, they were not as destructive as that of European colonization. I understand both these points she made to be wrong. I believe S.A.M lacks the perspective to debate this kind of topic with any authority so in writing this I hope her, and others like her will have more information to draw from so as to have an informed opinion. Working out a date: The first point of S.A.M’s I am going to debate is that the 800 years before colonization by the English… everything had being okay in India. I believe this point to be fabricated and distant from the truth. However to go 800 years back was not as simple as I thought it would be. First I had to establish the date with which to work back from. To be fair on S.A.M I am not going to take the date of British rule from when the British Crown got control of India in 1858 (British Raj) from the British East India Company with the `Government of India Act 1858’. I am going to go back to 1757 to the Battle of Plassay where the British East India Company defeated Siraj Ud Daulah and a consignment of French troops, and use that to work out the ‘800 years before British colonization’. So the time period I will be working with is from 957 through to 1757. Before 957 : I am going to try to keep this period of History as short as possible as it happened before the time period I was given to work with. In 712 CE Muhammad bin-Qasim lead 6000 cavalry into Hindu controlled territory to crush the Sindhi. In those days, when a town was besieged the capture of towns was usually accomplished by means of a treaty with a party from among his "enemy", who were then extended special privileges and material rewards. However, Qasim’s superior Hajjaj objected to this method and had the following to say; “It appears from your letter that all the rules made by you for the comfort and convenience of your men are strictly in accordance with religious law. But the way of granting pardon prescribed by the law is different from the one adopted by you, for you go on giving pardon to everybody, high or low, without any discretion between a friend and a foe. The great God says in the Koran [47.4]: "0 True believers, when you encounter the unbelievers, strike off their heads." The above command of the Great God is a great command and must be respected and followed. You should not be so fond of showing mercy, as to nullify the virtue of the act. Henceforth grant pardon to no one of the enemy and spare none of them, or else all will consider you a weak-minded man.” So in a communication following the one above, Hajjaj reiterated that all able-bodied men were to be killed, and that their underage sons and daughters were to be imprisoned and retained as hostages. Qasim obeyed, and on his arrival at the town of Brahminabad massacred between 6,000 and 16,000 of the defending forces 957 to 1757: Mahmud of Ghazn was an Afgan Sultan who invaded the Indian subcontinent in the 11th century. He was well known for his iconoclasm (destruction of religious icons and symbols) and for the destruction of many Hindu temples such as Mathura. He saw the destruction of these temples and the slaughter of the Hindu’s as act of ‘Jihad’. Pradyumna Prasad Karan describes Mahmuds invasion as one in which he put "thousands of Hindu's to the sword" and made a pastime of "raising pyramids of the skulls of the infidels" Mahmud of Ghazni also sacked the second Somnath Temple in 1026, and looted it of gems and precious stones and the famous Shiva lingam of the temple was destroyed and it's fragments taken away to Ghazni where they were used as stepping stones for a mosque. Shahab-ul-Din, King of Gazni who rules from 1170 to 1206, killed Prithwi Raj, King of Ajmer and Delhi in cold blood. He massacred thousands of the inhabitants of Ajmer who opposed him, keeping the remainder for slavery. In the Taj-ul-Ma’asir by Hassn Nizam-i-Naishapuri, it is stated that when Qutb-ul- Din Aibak (who ruled from 1194 to 1210) conquered Meerat, he demolished all the Hindu temples of the city and erected mosques on their sites. In the city of Aligarh, he converted Hindu inhabitants to Islam by the sword and beheaded all those who adhered to their own religion. Abdulia Wassaf writes in his Tazjiyat-ul-Amsar wa Tajriyat ul Asar that when Alaul- Din Khilji captured the city of Kambayat, he killed the adult male Hindu inhabitants for the glory of Islam, set flowing rivers of blood, sent the women of the country with all their gold, silver, and jewels, to his own home, and made about twenty thousand maidens his private slaves. Ala-ul-Din once asked his Qazi’, "what is the Mohammadan law prescribed for the Hindus?" The Qazi replied, “Hindus are like the mud; if silver is demanded from them, they must with the greatest humility offer gold. If a Mohammadan desire to spit into a Hindu’s mouth, the Hindu should open it wide for the purpose. God created the Hindus to be slaves of the Mohammadans. The Prophet hath ordained that, if the Hindus do not accept Islam, they should be imprisoned, tortured, finally put to death, and their property confiscated.” Sayad Mohammad Latif writes in his history of the Punjab, “Great jealousy and hatred existed those days between the Hindus and Mohammadans and the whole non-Muslim population was subject to persecution by the Mohammadan rulers.” The first Muslim Empire of India, the Sultanate of Delhi, was established in 1210 CE by Turkic tribes that invaded the subcontinent from Afghanistan. Many temples were looted and destroyed. This includes the destruction of the Somnath. Muhammad Ghori committed genocide against Hindus at Koi (Aligarh), Kalinjar and Varanasi, according to Hasan Nizami's Taj-ul-Maasir, 20,000 Hindu prisoners were slaughtered and their heads offered to crow Timur bin Taraghay Barlas was a warlord of Turco-Mongol descent who ruled from 1336 to 1405. He was the founder of the Timurid Empire. Timur crossed the Indus River at Attock. The capture of towns and villages was often followed by the massacre of their inhabitants and the raping of their women, as well as pillaging to support his massive army. Timur wrote many times in his memoirs of his specific disdain for the 'idolatrous' Hindus. Timur himself recorded the invasions in his memoirs, collectively known as Tuzk-i-Timuri... and here are a couple of paragraphs out of it; “In a short space of time all the people in the [New Delhi] fort were put to the sword, and in the course of one hour the heads of 10,000 infidels were cut off. The sword of Islam was washed in the blood of the infidels, and all the goods and effects, the treasure and the grain which for many a long year had been stored in the fort became the spoil of my soldiers. They set fire to the houses and reduced them to ashes, and they razed the buildings and the fort to the ground....All these infidel Hindus were slain, their women and children, and their property and goods became the spoil of the victors. I proclaimed throughout the camp that every man who had infidel prisoners should put them to death, and whoever neglected to do so should himself be executed and his property given to the informer. When this order became known to the ghazis of Islam, they drew their swords and put their prisoners to death. One hundred thousand infidels, impious idolators, were on that day slain. Maulana Nasiruddin Umar, a counselor and man of learning, who, in all his life, had never killed a sparrow, now, in execution of my order, slew with his sword fifteen idolatrous Hindus, who were his captives....on the great day of battle these 100,000 prisoners could not be left with the baggage, and that it would be entirely opposed to the rules of war to set these idolaters and enemies of Islam at liberty...no other course remained but that of making them all food for the sword.” It should be noted that Timur had to use 90 captured elephants to take his spoils of precious stones and gems back to his capital Oxus. Other notable Muslim leaders at the time Qutb-ud-din Aibak and Shams-ud-din Iltutmish were also both Islamic rulers who desecrated and destroyed Hindu holy sites and subsequently built mosque's over the sites. Firuz Shah Tughluq was the third ruler of the Tughlaq dynasty of the Delhi Sultanate. The "Tarikh-i-Firuz Shah" is a historical record written during his reign that attests to the systematic persecution of Hindus under his rule. In particular, it records atrocities committed against Hindu Brahmin priests who refused to convert to Islam; "An order was accordingly given to the Brahman and was brought before Sultan. The true faith was declared to the Brahman and the right course pointed out. But he refused to accept it. A pile was risen on which the Kaffir with his hands and legs tied was thrown into and the wooden tablet on the top. The pile was lit at two places his head and his feet. The fire first reached him in the feet and drew from him a cry and then fire completely enveloped him. Behold Sultan for his strict adherence to law and rectitude" Under his rule, Hindus who were forced to pay the mandatory Jizya tax were recorded as infidels, their communities monitored and, if they violated Imperial ordinances and built temples, they were destroyed. In particular, an incident in the village of Gohana in Haryana was recorded in the "Insha-i-Mahry" (another historical record written by Amud Din Abdullah bin Mahru) where Hindus had erected a deity and were arrested, brought to the palace and executed en-masse. Vijayanagra was a city flourished between the 14th and 16th centuries, during the height of the Vijayanagar Empire. During this time, it was often in conflict with the kingdoms which rose in the Northern Deccan, and which are often collectively termed the Deccan Sultanates. The period saw brutalities committed by the Muslim Side. In 1565, the empire's armies suffered a massive and catastrophic defeat by an alliance of the Sultanates, and the capital was taken. The victorious armies then razed, depopulated and destroyed the city over a period of several months. The empire continued its slow decline, and its original capital was not re-occupied or rebuilt. The Mughal Empire was marked by periods of tolerance of non-Muslims, such as Hindus, Christians and Sikhs, as well as periods of violent oppression and persecution of those people. The reign of Aurangzeb was particularly brutal. No aspect of Aurangzeb's reign is more cited - or more controversial - than the numerous desecrations and even the destruction of Hindu temples. Aurangzeb banned Diwali, placed a jizya on non-Muslims and martyred the ninth Sikh guru Tegh Bahadur. The confrontation with the Sikhs saw Aurangzeb and his henchmen commit an endless series of atrocities against Sikhs among them the tortuous execution of several Sikhs including the eight and ten year old sons of Guru Gobind Singh by live-burial. During his reign, tens of thousands of temples were desecrated: their facades and interiors were defaced and their murtis (divine images) looted. In many cases, temples were destroyed entirely; in numerous instances mosques were built on their foundations, sometimes using the same stones. Among the temples Aurangzeb destroyed were two that are most sacred to Hindus, in Varanasi and Mathura. In both cases, he had large mosques built on the sites. The Kesava Deo temple in Mathura, marked the place that Hindus believe was the birth place of Shri Krishna. In 1661 Aurangzeb ordered the demolition of the temple, and constructed the Katra Masjid mosque. Traces of the ancient Hindu temple can be seen from the back of the mosque. Aurangzeb also destroyed what was the most famous temple in Varanasi- the Vishwanath Temple. The temple had changed its location over the years, but in 1585 Akbar had authorized its location at Gyan Vapi. Aurangzeb ordered its demolition in 1669 and constructed a mosque on the site. Aurangzeb also destroyed the Somnath temple in 1706 and Ram Mandir in Ayodhya, at the birthplace of the Hindu deity Rama. Conclusion: The Prof. K.S. Lal, suggests a calculation in his book 'Growth of Muslim Population in Medieval India' which estimates that between the years 1000 AD and 1500 AD the population of Hindus decreased by 80 million. Will Durant debates in his 1935 book 'The Story of Civilization: Our Oriental Heritage'; “The Mohammedan conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. The Islamic historians and scholars have recorded with great glee and pride the slaughters of Hindus, forced conversions, abduction of Hindu women and children to slave markets and the destruction of temples carried out by the warriors of Islam during 800 AD to 1700 AD. Millions of Hindus were converted to Islam by sword during this period.” Or as Braudel put it; "The massacres perpetuated by Muslims in India are unparalleled in history, bigger than the Holocaust of the Jews by the Nazis; or the massacre of the Armenians by the Turks; more extensive even than the slaughter of the South American native populations by the invading Spanish and Portuguese." "The levies it had to pay were so crushing that one catastrophic harvest was enough to unleash famines and epidemics capable of killing a million people at a time. Appalling poverty was the constant counterpart of the conquerors' opulence" There is no official estimate of the total death toll of Hindus at the hands of Muslims. Estimates have stated that over 13 centuries and over the entire subcontinent, the number of Hindus who died at the hands of the Muslims goes up into the tens of millions. On several occasions, the Bahmani sultans in central India (1347-1528) killed around 80,000-100,000 Hindus in a short period of time, which they set as a minimum goal, during their anti-Hindu campaigns. I would like to conclude by saying that the Islamic invasion of Hindu civilization was infinitely more bloody than the colonization of India by the British. If anything the colonization of India by the British mostly seemed to have stopped the constant genocide of the Hindus at the hands of the Muslims. I therefore claim that S.A.Ms cultural ancestors decimated the Hindu population far greater than my own English ancestors and her point that everything was fine in the preceding 800 years to British occupation was a fabrication. S.A.Ms point that the British colonization of India was more destructive than the civilizations that conquered India before also to be a fabrication. The point of this post was two fold. One, to show S.A.M that the comments she made were incorrect by a long shot… and to show her that every single nation, of every single race, of every single religion is responsible for the most heinous of crimes against his and her fellow man, and that the destruction of civilization and the invasion of other people is not a “whites only” club. Her ancestors have just as much blood on their hands as mine. People are people, they are all capable of the most insidious of evils and the greatest of kindness`s. Final word. Oh my word…. My spell check hated this document! References: I got most of my information off Wikipedia ( http://www.wikipedia.org ) to therefore: Copyright (c) w1z4rd for sciforums.com. Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license is included in the section entitled "GNU Free Documentation License".
KS Lal is a spokeperson for the RSS (Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh) which has been embroiled in controversies of saffronisation of history to forward their agenda. So I would like to know: what are his sources? Similarly I would like to know the sources used by Will Durant and Braudel Why? So who do we believe?
It appears well-researched and far more objective than the previous thread, which I actually had loaded in MS Word with an eye to editing the "anger" out to present to you for possible re-posting. I'm happy to see that you took that initiative yourself and posted it in a more viable forum. The only criticism I might have really isn't a serious one: there are a lot of quotes that even I might find useful in the future -direct citations to their sources or links would be useful. For those interested, relevant links, references, and footnotes are available on this Wikipedia page, though I'm unsure if this was the...URL="http://www.islam-watch.org/"]Islam-Watch" and assumed that was the site I was on -it wasn't the homepage, so I didn't immediately recognize my error and posted a link since there was discussion about the topic. As it turns out, Islam-Watch doesn't have the information I initially googled.[/i][/SIZE]
first of all, is there a history called, "Tuzk-i-Timuri"? have you read it? & what does it say? the muslim wars against Hindus can not be denied, (my guess is, that if S.A.M. took a DNA test, she'd come up as "hindi", lots of muslims from the Indian sub-continent would). if you look at the history of India under the muslims, you see continuous atrocities committed by muslims against Hindis even peoples that muslims are supposed to respect (Peoples of the Book) were not safe, muslim conquerers have turned their churches into mosques Hagia Sophia in Istanbul http://www.islamicarchitecture.org/architecture/monuments/hagia.sophia.html or in Spain: in India, slave labor built the "monument to Love": 32m R? guess who had to fork over that money?
yeah, so? he apparently was a muslim in good standing, followed the quran when it came to dealing with kaffirs, ain't that what counts?
There is little doubt that the muslim invasions in India and rule have been bloody, even in comparison to the British. :bawl: One need not even look at written histories to come to this conclusion. I don't subscribe to the theory that the earlier 800 years were golden either. Probably, the golden periods were before the muslim invasions started. And you don't need a DNA test to figure SAM is a possible convert all those generations back Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! You just need to see her pic. That said, we have to just move on... :shrug:
