One more time for that Fourth and most Massive LIE so far...



TUVOK: (reacts) An explosion that size could affect an entire star
system.

JANEWAY: That's somewhat larger than I had in mind. You're proposing a
weapon of mass destruction...

SEVEN OF NINE: We are.

JANEWAY: Well, I'm not. You'd be endangering innocent worlds.

Oh SIAN!!! GET THIS GUY OUTTA HERE!!!
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!
hold on....

HAAAA HA HA HA HA HA HA oh.....Lordy!
Cherry PICK INDEED! THIS is why I stick around here....You're topping your previous lies by SOLAR SYSTEMS!

Because whenever we're at war we use maximum yield weapons, all the time, every time. Nuke em till they glow! Your oversimplification of this matter is astounding.


We see a shimmer effect when Anakin raises his shields in the droid control ship after he restarts his stalled fighter's engines. We do not see this effect on any of the starting fighters in the hangar, or Anakin's for that matter. He probably raised his shields after taking off. Regardless of this, why wouldn't the Trade Federation tank be capable of blasts powerful enough to penetrate a light fighter's shields? Certainly 5 kilotons would be adequate to cause damage and loss of control in atmosphere. Prove that the tank defending the Theed hangar was not firing at full output.
Just after the first bolt passes by the right side of Artoo's head, the second comes in to the left. A lingering green-white glow is seen above Artoo's head as sparks and a small white puff are produced before Artoo's head explodes. Nothing but a shield interaction could explain that glow. I'd attach a screenshot if I wasn't on the work mac right now. you'll have to be satisfied with a Youtube link.


Sorry. you're wrong. My numbers are directly supported by movie evidence. That's Canon, which you keep trying to rationalize away.

They hit the ship until its shields failed, then bracketed it with a large volume of fire. The pilot was assuredly trying desperately to Not Die. Accuracy supported by movie evidence and Venator's stated targeting ability in Episode III ICS.



Missile yield from the Episode II ICS, a canon source. Seriously, are you damaged? I have provided canon sources for everything. you saying I didn't doesn't make it so.
100% Bullshit.


My direct evidence is plentiful. And you're still stupid.

Sounds like you're desperate. Star Wars is internally consistent, mostly thanks to LFL's canon policy.


Between 2 and 4 years. Construction was started after the destruction of the first Death Star, and the battle station was operational at the Battle of Endor. This is canon. Sorry, you lose. Again.


Prove your low yield assumption or GTFO.

I've given an example of molecularly bonded armor that alone was assumed to be able to withstand bombardment from an ISD's 200GT+ heavy turbolasers. (Star's End)
Only in your head.


10 movies and countless hours of TV establish that Starfleet, the Klingon Empire, Et al often has trouble hitting its own ass with both hands. Turbolaser targeting range easily exceeds by an order of magnitude the maximum range of photon torpedoes, and exceeds the firepower by TEN orders of magnitude. (Galaxy Class: 5.6 Gigawatts main phaser array. Venator Star Destroyer: 1 billion Gigawatts Heavy Turbolaser x16) I have to note that the chain-reaction affect of Phasers may make the power output numbers deceptively low, but chain reaction effects don't work on shields. Sources: Episode III ICS, ST:TNG Tech Manual



They don't need to be, you fucking moron. They are established by lower canon and not contradicted (and sometimes even exceeded, see asteroid shooting) by superior canon. Therefore they stand. Also our best stats are from the Venator, but an ISD I is ten times more massive and presumably has ten times the power generation and firepower.

they are considered reliable and 'good as' by everyone but you. Even the writers of Trek.

These reference manuals have never been explicitly named as non-canon, and the fact that they were officially sanctioned by Paramount and given to episode writers as guides serves to give them an aura of credibility. Roddenberry himself considered it part of the "background" of Star Trek.

“

Originally Posted by Gene Roddenberry, Introduction to the Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual "Documents such as this Technical Manual help give some background to the vision we work so hard to create on Star Trek. Rick and Mike have obviously had a lot of fun filling in the gaps and trying to find technical 'explanations' for some of our mistakes."

”

“

Originally Posted by Ron Moore "We do use things like the Encyclopedia, the Chronology, the Technical Manual etc. for reference, but unless it was explicitly mentioned on screen, we won't feel bound by anything stated even in those books."

”

So the tech manuals should be considered reliable but not foolproof unless contradicted by on-screen evidence.

Again, bullshit. Star Wars proves 200 megatons (for older, smaller guns than on the ISD I) in the Episode III ICS, a canon source. How many times do I have to do this?
Venator Star Destroyer shield capacity: 70 trillion GW peak
Galaxy Class shield capacity: 3311 GW peak (473 GW per generator x 7 generators,

Same sources as my firepower statement. What happens when 1 billion GW discharge hits a shield with a 473 GW peak capacity? Well, they'll die quickly, at least.

It does not. I've proven it. Fuck off.
Episode II ICS. A Canon source. Also backed up by Slave II's pulverization of rocks 50+ meters in diameter with its midship guns in visual evidence, so you're doubly wrong.
You fail in successfully refuting even a single point.

I'm quoting canon sources, asshole. You're ignoring them.
At least. Episode III ICS stats on the Venator Star Destroyer, which is only a tenth the mass of the later Imperator/Imperial I class. Canon.
Numerous sources including visual movie evidence, especially episodes II, IV and V by Obi Wan's Delta interceptor, Tantive IV (Visual splintering of a turbolaser bolt that still destroyed the communications array), the Millenium Falcon suffering minor internal damage from Tie fighter and light turbolaser fire without shield penetration.
Like Luke's huge fireballs when he fired on the Death Star's armored surface? Like the Falcon's turret guns and X-Wings cannon turning a Tie Fighter into a fireball with no large particles? Slave I powdering asteroids? These are highest, movie canon examples. Examples in the EU too numerous to list.
I've given plenty. Where's yours? All I'm seeing from you are unfounded accusations and a total lack of substance backing it up. Again, and for the last time, I ask you to refute Star Wars obvious technological superiority to Trek (And try to use real fucking numbers, okay?) in:

Targeting
Firepower
Shielding
Armor

Propulsion, Numbers, and Power Generation are already nailed down tight.

This is why 'But it happened in Voyager!' is generally laughed out of any serious debate.

Excellent Sian...keep it coming...I'm loving it...That was the least you've ever posted...I knew you wouldn't accept it...

You're stumbled arent' you???? Denial is the first step...
I'm glad I'm here to watch...

Like a said no inferrior intelects just inferrior choices.

Put up or shut up. You're done, skippy. On fire and going down.

Targeting
Firepower
Shielding
Armor

I'm still waiting.

That's good specualtion.
I speculate that that it's likely weaker even than it appears like ObiWan dancing around fire balls from the Slave 1 lasers. (Canon)




More good yet irreleveant to canon.
I speculate that Anakin was the only one to raise his shields.

I'll review.




directly supported by observation...Your numbers are pure speculation.
Prove me wrong....where did you get the numbers from...

Better yet show me the math too so that I know you understand what you're saying.



.

We can't tell...The cruiser wasn't manuvering but headying right into the fire storm providing an easier target.




Yes it is untill contradicited by higher canon. Slave one did not display this fire power in lasers or in concussion missiles.


Something you excel at I'm guess?




More insults...well I'm tough I can take it.



Entirely contradicting from books to and Movies...
There for Roberts quote of George Lucas must be correct in that he doesn't view the EU or it would seem the books in line " with his own little universe" onscreen.




We don't know that.
You provided no proof. I'm guessing your stating the Shadows of the Empire?




Canon is clear. Explosions are nowhere near the GIGA ton range or even on the scale of a Hiroshima detonation...(sub mega ton)

based on the 200 giga ton fallacy...I complete understand your dilema..how do you prove one when you can't prove the other.


Yes my eyes are in my head.




Yes I'm sure the Falcon was just a case of bad day in the turret.







.

I've been told that they are not canon by Paramount...Your buddy TWScott concurs.

They have been named as non canon by the man heading the book division in Pocket books. The same man that introduced the contest to create the Star ship class Luna. I've talked with him...It is open and shut...They are not canon.


He said that they are not canon and his word is the final word on the matter, not yours.


Untill you establish a trend of 200 GIG watt fire power...
Currently Robert Anderson's numbers are far from these numbers. I presume both sources are lies and non canon.

Ah but the trick is to prove it...not to state it.

Probably nothing at all happens...Star Trek shields have never been tested again War's weapons...



Hee Hee. It's for your eyes to see my fine feathered friend...take a look and see that nothing matches what you say...and you haven't used a bit of canon to prove it..

MEanwhile you're attacking me saying that I'm twisting canon like a raving lunatic...lossing your cool...loosing your security, loosing control and just plain loosing it because you can't find any canon to contradict those simple canon examples of low power damage.

Such a shame.


And yet in complete contradiction to the effects seen taken damage of the figher...(It's supposed shields) and the damage done to Artoo.

Well if you say I've failed then I must have completely suceeded because you're still at a loss for words.



Inferrior canon sources....The contradictions have been made plain to you.

You want me to believe your speculations....(nope not doing it)


Your burdeon is to show the proof...not just state it...frame by frame as I have done.


flashes...flashes are more than difficult to gauge.


Plenty what...visual aids or speculation? Direct observations or speculation? scripts or speculations?

You do it well but It could be made to serve the Emperor.


Targeting
Firepower
Shielding
Armor

The numbers are made up the Fire power is exaggerated in the canon sources and don't reflect the visuals. It's direct contradictions across the board and the thanks to the fact that you couldn't disprove but speculated on every point means that superior canon checks speculation.

Game, match, set....

I got my numbers from Canon, dummy. mostly the ICS, but these numbers are backed up by on-screen evidence. I've given you numbers from canon sources, references to movie scenes which back up the numbers. I don't need anything else.

It most assuredly did.

Running to RSA again? The paranoid egomaniac with no scientific background whatsoever? Anyone with two braincells to rub together can see that his claims are ridiculous. He's a troll, a proven liar, and probably should seek psychiatric help. He is the only person I know of who has been explicitly told 'You're Wrong' By representatives of both Paramount licensing and LFL. (Paula Block, Leland Chee.) To your 'credit', your 'debating' style is right out of the man's misguided handbook.

Canon sources are proof, dipshit. RSA tactic #5. Outright Lies.


They're kiloton level directed energy weapons, referring to the Trade Federation tanks. Energy of those levels can be delivered without creating an atomic detonation or shockwave. These are focused energy weapons, not explosives. They. Behave. Differently.


RSA technique #1. Wall of Ignorance. 200 gigaton is canon. It's backed up by on-screen evidence in Episode III and V.
I will take this as conceding my point.


I didn't say they were canon. I said 'good as' and 'used as references by the show's writers'. Distorting much?

Source for where they are explicitly declared non-canon, or shut up. Even better, supply dissenting numbers that are backed up by on-screen evidence.



All I'm hearing are your words. You can't even give me a NAME.


RSA's numbers are thoroughly debunked as complete fabrications. 200 GigaTON (10 billion gigawatt) firepower is established by movie canon and sourceboook canon.

Yes, I'm sure all that energy magically vanishes into the Ether.



I've used canon sources. You haven't mounted a single effective argument against my points.

LOSING, you second grade spelling dropout. I'm refuting your claims with canon evidence. That I'm insulting you as well is just bonus, but not directly applicable to the debate.

I have yet to see you provide evidence of this contradiction. RSA tactic #3. Vague Evidence. Ignore the fact that a scene could be interpreted in different ways, just stick to the one that supports your own words. One more and you could be RSA himself!

Succeeded. RSA #2 Black Knight syndrome. It's only a flesh wound! Continue to assert that you're winning when you don't have any feet to stand on.



LFL policy. Inferior canon stands unless contradicted by superior canon. I'm waiting.

Just because you fail to acknowledge it doesn't make it go away. and it's spelled 'Burden'.

Plenty of canon evidence, shitstain.

Prove it. You can't, can you? The numbers are canon, are not contradicted by screen evidence, I have given both in great quantity.
Yes, go back to the st-v-sw forum and gloat about your 'victory' with the 20 other permavirgins who hang out there. We'll still be here, laughing at you.

Yeah I know, hee, hee, oh my. The ICS books are contradicting the on screen...So your numbers aren't valid. You think they reflect 200 giga tons but you're wrong.



So I'm guessing you're on your last brain cell.[proven liar,[/url] and



.

Not when it contradicts canon. Observation clearly shows that their is little no GIGA weapons in Star Wars...



Not even a kiloton.

Of course but it is more than to bring down an Oklahoma city builing and we don't see that.


Yeah for one they don't create GIGATON explosions...Nevertheless...They would at that power level fuse hydrogen atoms which would cause a Nuclear reaction...The levels are so insanely I pretty sure that helium and Carbon would be on the fuse list with hydrogen.



No it's not. I haven't reviewed E III but untill you show some images I'm saying that it falls into the rest of the E's and doesn't show any evidence of canon.

Everywhere...
They're no cannon. Go over to Simonsays.com and talk to him for yourself. He was quite clear. It's a question they bring up regularly and he's quite tired of people asking.





Marco P-something...



Yeah I aggree and so are the 200 gigaton...
Law of canon dictates if it contradicts canon at the highest level then it's not true.

That's why EU is differnt. That's two contradictions. The weapon power and the Hyperspace speed that the books say is less.


Yes you have and be proud of yourself but you haven't proved that the less canon should be believed over higher canon.

Funny I feel the same way towards you.



Dont i no it. It's two bat tat u hav know prof.



I'm sure you wouldn't understand it if you could see it.

Pretty intelligent man...thank you.
You've got a little Wong in ya...



Oh I love it...keep it up...





Waiting to exhale....


.

Thanks dad...



LOL!!!! Oh I'sa thinka he's a loosin his cool and the debate too!





Already did.

Not a lie at all. Anyone with a fully functional grip on reality knew what was actually implied. They were looking for a platform for delivery of the nano-probe. As of yet they had not tested it and it could have been just as harmful to other biologics as it was to Species 8472. After all if the Borg had that solar system destroying mine, why the hell didn't they just use it and take out the Attacking ships. Better yet why not send ships armed with this mine toward Earth and just drop out of transwarp long enough to drop the mine in the middle of a defending fleet and then Transwarp away? Oh that's right becuase it doesn't destroy solar systems.

Cuaght you in your lie, didn't I?

Canon actually supports my interpretation of the scene. See unlike Star Trek writers, Star Wars writers assume their fans are smart enough to actually figure things out rather than be told every damn last thing. Not that most Trekkies are stupid, just the ones who believe that Star trek has a chance against Star Wars.


Are you trying to use your own internal dialog as argument? If so do you always call yourself dummy.

Here is a counter point to that, since you have NO evidence that the fighter's weapons were fired at full power and it would make sense for the weapons to firing at a lower power for legitimate reasons then it is safe to assume that the weapon was not fired at maximum firepower.

What we have is

• No proof the maximum setting is used
• A desire not to use the full settings for the fact that you are in a hangar with your friends and don't wish to kill them
• Access to an astromech droid that would know this and is capable of handling weapons settings

I have stuck to lesser canon when it can be used to explain superior canon. That is all facts. You might call it speculation, but rational people call it seeing the big picture.

.
But you are trying to equate a Blaster Rifle with the Laser cannons on a TIE fighter. Look at Artoo when his is taken from the droid socket on Yavin, there are huge scorch marks, melted wiring, burnt boards, melted armor. On Endor the blaster rifle did little to no physical damage to Artoo.

Actually it is your desperation. Anyone who makes the comparison above will see how you twist semantics.

I dispute that the ionization he suffered from the Blaster shot is equal to the gross physical damage he took form the pair of Firelinked Laser Cannons on Vader Improved TIE fighter.

Actually the Tank damaged the craft and the craft spun out of control. However the Tank it self was mounting a Heavy Laser cannon equivalent to the Type mounted in said craft.

I haven't lied about it. Lying involves intetional deceit, like you had done, not mis remembering like I had done. I do admit I was wrong, but I call you on your outright lie.

No, but this speaks for ther tough construction of the Jedi Star Fighter.

Do you dispute that Slave-1 was firing on a man with precognative abilities?

What are you a fucking moron? A weapon that spreads a nanoprobe slower than warp would be useless as a weapon of mass destruction against mobile targets. FTL might not have been explicitly stated, but neither is Janeway taking a during the day. Does that mean that in Star Trek humans have stopped excretion?


Refer to my argument above and suddenly you will no longer be laughing.

I'm not insulting you. I am simply pointing out which intellectual category you are choosing to be in. I am hoping that through education that you will see the light and perhaps join the fully functional. I am an optimist that way. Since the carrot has not worked I am resorting to showing you your true face.

BTW There are inferior intellects out there, but as Forrest Gump would say if he were a real person. "You may be an idiot, but you don't have to be so stupid."

I'm insulting him though. Seriously TW Scott.. this guy is way too removed from rational thought. his response to being proven wrong is to stick his fingers in his ears and yell "No you didn't!" as loud as he can. Useless. He's a RSA fanboy, for crissake. You can't expect much from them.

Elementary My Dear Data.

It means Trek isn't subject to pure firepower as you believe.
This is the third piece of evidence with agrees with my theory.
And remember...I'll start speculating too. since you guys use it so abundantly.

Maybe they did...and it didn't work.
The important fact is that they have the fire power.

Everything else there was stupid. Scott-stupid, sorry man...

Unlikely. However my premise is superior canon it does contradict the ICS books.

don't need it. Canon is default aswell.
Lack of evidence to the contrary also establishes it as default.


All speculation and inferrior to anything canon least of all film.

That's a First...Progress...step one Admision of Guilt. Now we're getting somewhere. After you admit you have a lying problem you must first establish when you have an opportunity to lyee and fill it with the opportunity to be honest.

You can do it.

Thanks to SIANS U Tube link I've established that the X wings Deflectors were down. Lukes fighter had been hit once already...subsequently Artoo was hit by two direct bolts.

Not one but two... This is the firepower of a Tie fighter.
Also we can see these fighter destroying the shield generators...both of the Executor. Clearly the hull of Star Destroyers is not anything special.

First shot barely registers to the human eye.

[IMG][/IMG]

by the time that shot hits...the second one hits at the same time. This could be interpreted that the first shot hit a shield...but there no shield effect to justify that. And there usually is an effect of somekind..

[IMG][/IMG]


[IMG][/IMG]

Here we see the first shot create an explosion on Artoo and the second is impacting...

No shield effect preceeding either blast.
If there was a shield effect it didn't last long enough to stop the first shot entirely and the second shot hit Artoo's dome dead on.
Like I said gentleman...Star Wars shields just plain suck.

Stupid is as stupid does...
Stupid is lying...stupid is unfounded attacks...but keep it up...more you don't say the more you tell me.


Let's review once more shalls we?
Observe: Trade Federation Tank destroys ground. Effect: sub kiloton: 20 lbs of TNT may...be 40 lbs
Observe: Trade Federation Tank destroys Naboo fighter Effect Fighter destroyed by same firepower used on the ground.
Observe: Artoo damaged by Hand Blaster Effect: sub-kilo watt..(very)
Observe: Artoo damaged by Tie Fighter laser bolt. Effect moderate damage
Observe: Ar-For damaged by grazed laser bolt: Effect: Damage the same
Observe: Trade Federation Turbo laser obliterate several astromech Droids. Effect: expansive but in the low end of the kiloton ranege if kilo ton
Observe: Trade Federation battleship destroy Naboo Fighter Effect: near Kiloton effect


We have now establish that the first, second and third links in this change are correct. Low, Low, power. Even if Artoo is made of Nabooian ship armor we know it isn't any good against vs a tanks primary gun. We've seen that gun in action. Maybe 100 lbs of TNT.

Check once more...but this is more like a review.

This also establishes SIAN's 2nd Lie.

What splintering effect? The bolt hits and cause and explosion all the green you see is just overlay nothing special...speculate...as I know you will. but there is no "effect" here but lasers and explosion.

Nothing stopped half or partial way to artoo. He got hit square in the dome.

Your name...for the man incharge of Star Trek Pocket books.
Marco Palmeiri

Theres a thread on canon...find it. look it up , use it, wear it out.

Marco Palmieri
Moderator


Reged: 05/11/00
Posts: 1651
Re: Canon-ish-ness... uh!
#96662 - 04/27/06 12:27 AM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply




quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another problem that has arisen, especially in recent years with more 'obsessive' fandoms popping up, is the fact that the Star Trek novels are quickly acquiing the same reputation as fan-fiction because simply, they have no official standing.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's not correct. Every professionally published work of ST fiction, from initial concept to final manuscript, is considered, vetted and approved by the studio--the owners and copyright holders of Star Trek--before it sees publication. That's the distinction. It's a formally sanctioned expansion of the ST mythos.

None which has anything to do with the fact that no books are canon, without exception.

Marco

[ April 26, 2006, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: Marco Palmieri ]

You do not have an inkling of what's going on in Trek.
You also can't seem to examine any closer than surface deep or as far as your motivated to go. Your Star War's knowledge is website based. You're 25% of the time and speculating the other half.

And all you can come up with is..."twisting canon"?

You don't need to disprove me and I nor you...Canon speaks for it'self...And if you'll listen you can hear Artoo squealing from two direct hits from a Tie fighters lasers.

This Hole in your argument was brought to you by SaQ. Taking down Lies one error at a time.

I EAGARLY await the next round of speculations and trash talking that you'll use as a paper thin defense.

Invest in our new product: RESOLVE...with Outtadout.

It eats through the worse caked on Warsie attacks like bleach without the harmful chemical reaction of denial. Watch those lies just lift right out into the open.

THATS RIGHT...You too can have RESOLVE...with Outttadout.
Add it to any movie and watch the BS float away... Speculation disolves away with RESOLVE... Just a splash on a Warsie and they'll beat the wicked witches best shrivel time, RIGHT BEFORE YOUR EYES!!!

THAT'S RIGHT!!! GET RESOLVE NOW!!! AND GET TO THE TRUTH BEHIND WARSIE ATTACKS!!! ALWAYS AVAILABLE WHEN INVESTING WITH THE TRUTH. WITH OUTTADOUT....

Simply ridiculous.

I can't say anything that would make saquist look stupider than he's accomplishing all on his own.

Case closed.

aH ! Yes..the trill of victory.

You know I don't mind looking Ridiculous...I don't take myself or my point of view too seriously.
Most important...I'd rather than be ridiculed than feared or despised... I'd rather be a nice guy than a person that speaks without regard for others. I'd rather be the good guy than the villian.
I'd would far rather be me...than you.

You're bad Sian... You chose the bad guys...Your speech is bad...your sensitivity is bad...your perception is bad. You make bad decisions...And you view people badly and not with love or understanding.

This discussion meant so much to you. There wasn't nothing you weren't prepared to do to win...Victory at all cost is no victory at all. Even if you had won.

It was the most selfish display of arrogance and selfindulgence I'd witnessed in long. I feel pity for those around you on the daily basis...whether it be family or friends becase such a person will...turn on those he says he loves.


So..Sian reduced to a ameba like post.

The sting of a lie gone terribly wrong. Wanna know the best thing...you made it possible to make it painfully clear that Star Wars has some catching up to do by most that link to U Tube...with no window controls I was able to capture those pics and land your pathetic argument in the toliet...

But you know that was alreay done. The lie was just butterscotch on the top. This was won when TWScott had to Lie to get him out of the case of the Tank and the Fighter.

know why...no one noticed it. I notice alot of thing most people over look and I look for the details. While you live in speculations I dawn truth...like a cool leather jacket and drive a talking car...named-wait...wrong thread....

Better yet this was like David and Goliath
You know the story...wait..that's right you're one those that think we came from apes....Well the story goes like this...A Big bad Troll roams into the thread with all the grace of a T-Rex and decides he knows better than everyone else...Then he's joined by a Fat Allosaurus. They team up and take on the small force of Trekdom with it's zealous explores...

They taunt, spat and utter ugly curses fitting to what is int there heart...(darkness) But when it came to deliver on those promises...A small Astro-mech droid proved them liars and sissies...

They ran...They hooted but they were harmless.

I changed a few things but I think you get the idea.

You know what I find so hilarious about Saquist? It's that he actually thinks his speculation based on what he has viewed is somehow more valid than licensed EU or even mine or your Sian. EU is based off professionals who have observed Star Wars and talked with Lucas.

Now, LFL policy is that EU is canon unles DIRECTLY disputed by the films.

This doesn't mean that EU is totally negated becuase we see a scene that does not demonstrate the full firepower or accuracy of weapons. We sit back and think for a moment. Is there a reason for using lower power, or for missing? Does this seem to fit the tenor of the movie and scene? Becuase SW does not take the kindergarten approach of telling us absolutely everything this is a must when analyzing scenes.

What aSaquist fails to take into account is the whole situation. He focuses on one thing and in the end looks completely foolish.

Yeah, but because he can contrive a roundabout way that the films may be possibly interpreted to dispute the evidence, that must be the One True Way. Like how the trench run pics somehow proved his point, when the exact same frame also shows direct evidence of shield interaction (the glow in front of R2's head, when the explosion occured behind.) As I said, RSA standard tactic #3 of Vague Evidence. He also LOVES the standard RSA tactic of ignoring established canon policies, because without that, his assumptions crumple like the paper tigers they are. I have a few images myself to finish out with. Pay close attention now.

I'm actually the only one not speculating. I actually call it as I see.
No shield, no splintering
Direct hit...twice.
Superior Canon.

Oh but you see...
This hasn't just directly disputed the range for the 200 GIGATON fallacy it disputes all your speculation automaticly caues it's not canon at all. All those reasons. and not a lick of evidence to prove it.

It's negated because every scene plays out the same way with nary of Meganon explosion btween a fighter and a Death Star.

Do all the speculation you want I'm only intrested in what's provable. Unless your speculations become extrapolations then it useless and inadmissable as evidence...IT's not evidence is speculation and circumstancial.

I gave you the terms for justifiying your speculations. If you can find two or more scenes that show a reduced power setting was used in an enclosed space or that an Astromech commandeered a spacecraft and lowered those setting...I'll accept it.

But I've read alot of Star Wars books and I've never ever read such a thing...But I haven't read all of them.


More like precise. In every situation of detail verse speculation I lean on the side of Detail...There is an endless amount of speculation as no why the wall didn't collapse or Artoo blown away with two laser shots...

But any of them could be true and they all could be false. You have me chose your interpretation...one that you must admit is biased in every way. The Facts tell one story...

They say something was damage. They say something was destroyed. They show how many shots and they use like weaponary... There for I use common denominators to single out like situations.

I'm told...that's what makes a good judge. Impartiality

Ah but it does my dear deluded friend it does...
We can see from the pick that even as one may or may not have set off the shield...

It still causes and explosion. And explosion at the same time as the shield?
We've never seen that before....And explosian at the same time as the shield...

And you can also see the laser bolt hasn't finished striking it's target...
In the animation you can see that the white flash is acutualy the beginings of the explosion not a shield effect.

I have two shield effects on record.

[IMG][/IMG]

One of things I asked myself is...

That might be a shield effect...that little flash infront of Artoo. If it is Sian and TWScott are right...the energy splintered off the shield and continued through to the droid.

The question was...Was it a shield effect.

[IMG][/IMG]

Two shield effects? Yeah...nothings standard in Star Wars when it comes to special effects..but this at least shows that shield effects were animated larger than the size of a football.

There's more...That flash point is actually the explosion...in one clip you see it expanding.

[IMG][/IMG]

The moment of strike... Flash? No... No Flash at all....

The Effect of strike, bELLOW...

U TUBE may be inferrior in picture quality to what I can pull up at home but these images are condeming...

If you're right Sian...that thin pathetic post of yours seems to suggest that even the flah from rubbing two sticks together is a shield effect... We've all seen sparks before....

But ta....There is no flash...no shield here. You would appear to be wrong. Not only is that flash in front of Artoo an explosion as can be told in the center as it expands it's definitly an explosion...

Granted that explosion, the real...un animated explosion happens behind Artoo D2 You can rationalize that all you won't but we all know that no amount of working light or as you insist plasma and physics is going to make that explosion appear on the direct opposite side on Artoo's dome...

That's not splintering that's not light refraction...and plasma doesn't refract.

If I were to speculate....
I'd say it went straight through...while this seen doesn't show it. The end scenes of pulling him out of the fighter show his dome look like acid hit it. It evidently didn't have that amount of damage at impact or even a few seconds afterwards.

Again they didn't put that amount of thinking into the scene...They animated an explosion. Animators at the time didn't cut an apply effects with the detail they do now. To the human eye that flash didn't even happen...I was there for may 6 to 12 frames for the computer to catch.

In any case a shield effect definitely isn't seen on alot of shots...Just shot and explosion....

Reach for the Straws Sian...there the only thing left and their hollow. REach for the last remants of your tactics...attack.

That's usualy what animals do when cornered.

So no shield effect...what now...
Those weapons just passed straight on through....

Why the Y-wing lost the engine nacelle...Is anybody's guess. Again the effects depart is the blame... The engine severs as though as fragile as bassal wood from a laser impact.

I tell ya...A New Hope is a Star War's fans wosrse nightmare.

Worse yet...You still have no evidence at all of what you contend. Please speculate as too how this conversation will end...I figure why not go to the master...The master of speculation.

Give me anything...Sian...anything that agrees with your theory of the acutual portrayal of events...
We clearly see Artoo take a hit from the team...twice....

We see more than half the time these "shielded" fighters couldn't even survive one hit...One bolt...Some how Artoo does...
Those WHy wings had full shields...Lukes shields were damaged by this point.

Whats the common denominator...Is Artoo's Armor better than Star Fighter Armorr?
In Return of the Jedi we see a modern fight get slaged by one volly....from a Tie fighter.

WE also see that these weapons are detrimental to an imperial Star Destroyer...Whether that be by repeated attack or single waves...but shields again don't become a factor on screen.

The X wings preformed just one on screen run on the Executors Shield Generators and it blew sky high!!! Now they may have preformed mulitple runs on that thing or not...It's not for me to say...

But with the fire power we've seen so far.

[IMG][/IMG]

They only had minutes to do this amount of damage...and that was before Admiral Ackbar ordered to concentrate fire power on the super Star Destroyer.

And the last shield Generator to go was by straffing with Lasers...so much for impenetrable and there wasn't a trace of damage on the thing when it blew like a baloon.

You see direct observations...

Please continue to attack me...Because you apparently have no response to the evidence...It seems like you've given up...

That's all you've got.