Disagreeing with Dan

So I'm going to disagree with Dan Savage. Not that this is any big deal, but since homophobes, conservatives, and other assorted scoundrels like to pretend that liberals never disagree with one another, it seemed worth mentioning. After all, we need to go out of our way to make sure our conservative neighbors feel welcome and accepted, so no matter how ridiculous their zealotry compels them to be, we need to pretend from time to time that they have a valid point.

Otherwise, who really gives a f@ck if I disagree with Dan Savage?

But the point of disagreement seems somewhat important.

"Auntie Mame" writes:

The letter goes on to ask two questions. The first is whether it is even possible to tell the sexual preference of a child so young. Dan Savage responds:

I disagree. While we might colloquially admit that there is a 99% chance the kid is gay, I don't think we can objectively say the same. Now, I'm all for erring to caution, so I accept the colloquial assessment. But I must protest that, in this day in which so many people are looking for a reason, and looking for a gay to criticize and hate, we should not give the semi-literate ammunition. Normally, I would protest that such a concern represents the sad process of giving over to the bullies, but right now the bullies are pushing quite hard for their "equal" right to be bullies. So perhaps my disagreement with Dan Savage is only for their benefit. Everyone else ought to be able to figure out the point in the first place.

The second question is more delicate: "Is it wrong for me to indulge my nephew even though my brother (his parent) has told me that he doesn't want my nephew doing those things?"

Because this situation involves sexuality and a five year-old, there's something inherently creepy about keeping secrets. Now, knowing that some conservatives really are so reactionary, I'm actually very careful about establishing secrets with my daughter. I get where Dan is coming from on this, but Auntie Mame actually asked the question, which suggests she's actually dealing with the potential ramifications of the answers. Now, because she needs to be reminded of the obvious ("Your nephew needs an adult in his life who loves him unconditionally and a space where he can express himself without fear"), we might also consider reminding her of the obvious thing about secrets: there are some secrets I just can't keep for you.

Savage goes on to include a third point of advice:

I should at least note that I agree with him on this point. I mean, Auntie Mame will have to tell someone where the boy has disappeared to, but if she can't figure that one out on her own, the kid doesn't stand a chance.

• • •​

I should say that I feel for Auntie Mame, as well as the boy. In my own extended family there is a budding gay boy. At the outset, everyone dealt with it because they thought it was "cute"; once they realized this was more than just a passing fancy, they started dealing with it for real. My conservative Lutheran aunt has apparently decided to leave this one between the boy and God. The parents are to varying degrees uneasy, but they also seem determined to adjust to the circumstance.

And I do sympathize with the boy's father: looking around, the boy prefers his female cousins, who are more than happy to provide him with dresses and pretty shoes. And, facing his in-laws, the father sees his wife's sisters and aunt openly amused and fascinated with this developmental process they've never witnessed. He has no support on this one, so instead of alienating his son, he's going to get used to it. And if it becomes a serious frustration for him in coming years, he has an entire family that will help him get used to the fact that his eldest son is gay.

Personally, I think the whole situation is hilarious. But that's only because I'm so lucky that this is the family I get to watch go through this. Best of luck to Auntie Mame.
____________________

Notes:

Savage, Dan. "Savage Love: The Girly Boy". TheStranger.com, October 25, 2007. See http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/SavageLove?oid=424590 ​

 

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I have a thought. How about instead, they just raise the kid and see what happens? Just for laughs, I mean.

 

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Well, right. But what exactly does that mean? At some point the ideas collide. I suppose I'm lucky in that respect; I have a daughter. If she turns out to be a dyke, fewer people will notice.

To the other, can you imagine all the anguish and internal wrangling, and all for ... well, for what?

EG: Daddy, I ... I'm ... I'm gay.

T: And?

EG: I mean ... but ... I mean ... huh?

T: Well, is she nice? Is she cute? I mean, good for you. What am I supposed to say?

EG: Aren't you supposed to go nuts? Tell me, "No daughter of mine ..."?

T: Would it make you feel better if I did?​

I mean, you realize that even that could be damaging?

Okay, okay ... I'll be serious. Although, yes, that could be damaging.

But seriously, what does it mean, to "just raise the kid"?

 

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I think instead of focusing on the sexuality of a five year old boy, both Auntie Mame and brother Johnnybegood, should invest that interest in something more useful.

 

Why?

Why? Have you even been to Berkeley?

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Ah, I kill me.

I have three children, all boys. Why should I wrangle? It's possible - given that I'm a social Darwinist - that I could be disappointed in their probably non-reproductive status (especially since my brother and cousins have no children, the fools), but otherwise, there is really little that can be done.

Although you're not being really serious: not really, no. I'll be frank: any child that couldn't stand the...'damage'...that would come of their parent having no real reaction to their choice of sexuality is probably not going to survive the tumultuous period of higher education and, dare we speak it, life. Better to have a shock or two early, just to toughen up the spirit.

"OMG, daddy, you don't disapprove or approve of my personal-happiness-neutral decision? I hate you!"

Feed, clothe, teach, instruct moral imperative and competitive perception. Play some sports.

All right, now I'll be mostly serious: if you're looking for something more specific, I would admit to rearing boys with a male gender bias and girls with a female gender bias. That might offend some people, I suppose; but they already tend strongly in that direction, frankly, and I have to go with statistical probability.

 

The skies darken...the moon turns to blood...


Geoff and Sam agree.

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It's Hallowe'en!​

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I agree. They should buy him guns and knives, and take him out to a good shooting range. They should also buy lots of violent war films and violent crime films so he can see what life is REALLY like out there in the cold, cruel world of reality. It would also be nice to bring some tough little redneck kids in to tease him mercilessly when he acts like a little sissy.

Baron Max

 

Thankyou for that, Baron.

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Let you out of your box again, have they?

 

Ah I see the damage was done young :bawl:

 

Umm ... thbpbpbpbpbpbt!

Whatever you say.

And?

Um ... never mind.

You're looking at it differently at least, and I would say wrongly. The damage comes from the fact that the child should have to wrestle with those considerations in the first place. And no matter how young or old we are, there's a sting when we realize we've just put ourselves through the wringer for nothing. However, your prior paragraph ("Why should I wrangle?") suggests there's a glitch in translation.

Sounds great. It's one of those feel-good standards, though. I mean, we can all pretty much agree on that, but I'm not so naîve as to pretend that everybody agrees on what that standard means in practice.

In and of itself, it's not offensive.

I'll trade you on the mostly serious: Given how wrong popular culture can be, is statistical probability the best thing to go by in this case?

 

Someone who's gay could never be into guns or war or dressing up in uniforms

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You need a shrink...the 500 dollar an hour kind.

 

Funny... I'm a two-time vet. I did two deployments to Iraq.

I can say this now because I am no longer in. I did my enlistment and chose it was time to move on. And though Im out now, I still love the military and don't regret a minute of it. But ANYWAYS....

Who freegin cares if the kid is gay. He's 5 YEARS OLD! His family should be concentrating on his education, social skills, and other basic fundamentals to everyday life, not focusing on who he will be sleeping with in 15 years from now. Let him live his childhood, and then deal with his sexual orientation when the right time comes. How he handles it is up to him.

 

Of course. This is best for everyone, at all times. I am nothing if not al-insan al-kamil, you understand.

...that was a joke.

:shrug: Whaaaatever.

Wrongly? I am never wrong. If the damage comes from the fact that the child should have to wrestle with those considerations in the first place, then why are you transplanting it onto yourself? Either she is or she isn't. If it's her wrangling, then just be a parent and do what you think's best. No gay woman was traumatized because dad got her Barbie instead of dumbbells and pants with an elastic waistband.

Those are the standards. Do those things. What else?

It's all we have. If playin' w' axes and leapin' arf buildins' were good enough for all t' generations of me brutal, vicious bloodletting ancestors, it were good enough fer me lads as well.

 

Yep.

 

Fine. But the question was, what do you do if the kid's father doesn't think that way, and wants you to back his restrictions to the point of possible harm to the child ?

 

(Insert title here)

Imagine that you're thirty years old. You have a degree, a nice place in the city, and a good job with a prestigious designer. You've managed to get a television show that hits the air in two weeks. Oh, shit ... the show is called Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, and you're about to become one of the most prominent gay men in the country. Maybe, just maybe, you should get around to having that talk with your folks, so they don't have to find out from the television show.

Do you have any idea whatsoever the weight of that confession? Sisyphus, stay, until I get you bigger goddamn rock to push up the hill!

Your standard is a little like "teach her to sing pretty songs". Okay, what constitutes pretty? What is the perspective of moral imperative? These definitions differ. What is the perspective on competitive perception?

 

The

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LOOK AT THE

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!

Hmmph!