We all our who we are based on our biology, our environment in our early years(most shrinks say by 5 we are matured sexually to whatever we are attracted to but many suppress it due to society) and the choices we make fighting to find ourself.

Let me start with biology as all of us start out female. Many of us evolve into males but mother nature sometimes doesn't make all of the changes and we have more than two sexes.

The making of the sexual body in the womb is a complicated, many-stepped affair, in which there are many possible outcomes. This is true even at the level of the sex chromosomes. Most people have 23 pairs of chromosomes, all shaped like Xs, except for one lone Y chromosome in pair 23 if you're male (Y is the gene with the instructions for making a boy). The XX pair of a typical female is what International Olympic Committee is testing for when it tries to weed out the supposed transvestites from the actual girls. But some girls are born with only one X chromosome instead of the crucial pair. Others have an XY pair, but the male-making gene on the Y doesn't succeed in being heard, either because it's defective or because another gene has failed to make the necessary receptors. Before the 1992 Olympics, a study in the British Journal of Sports Medicine concluded that about one in 500 female athletes flunks the gender test. Some of these women might have arrived at the games knowing they were different--one genetic anomaly, for instance, can lead a baby to develop as a female, but without ovaries and a uterus--but others probably had no idea that they were unusual, and slunk away from the stadium shocked and traumatized.

Not that all chromosomal oddities yield females, either. About one in 500 males would also fail a gender test. A man with Klinefelter's syndrome, for example, inherits not one, but two X's from a parent, as well as the necessary Y from his father. He thus has a chromosome "pair" that reads XXY.

http://www.pfc.org.uk/news/1996/biodoma.htm

Reseachers now show a difference between female and male brains and many of us are in the middle.

Intersex Society of North America is devoted to systemic change to end shame, secrecy and unwanted genital surgeries for people born with atypical reproductive anatomies. We are working to end the idea that intersexuality is shameful or freakish. In the U.S. alone, five children are subjected to harmful, medically unnecessary sexual surgeries every day. We urge physicians to use a model of care that is patient-centered, rather than concealment-centered

http://www.isna.org/


Get Discovery Channel documentary "Is It a Boy or a Girl?"

"Very impressive. Everyone interested in intersex issues should see this film." - Robert Blizzard MD (pediatric endocrinology), Genentech Foundation for Growth & Development

I believe that sexual preference is based on both Genetics and environmental factors

One can be genetically pre-disposed to homosexual preferences, but the evironment also has to be right in order for these preferences to be expressed.

Unless we are physically forced to do something, everything we do is our choice, our free will. Sexual preference is a choice. To assume otherwise is to reduce the value or someone's choice, to say it is something that needs an excuse.

And don't forget to change your sexual orientation every 5000 miles!!!!!

Sorry.

Ah, justagirl, what does any of that prove? What is the relevence to orientation?

And what do you mean 'all of us started out female'? How do you define 'female', because I think don't think our chromosomes change in utero.

justagirl,
I think Xev hit the real confusion on the head. What exactly does your post have to do with sexual preference? (and are you really sure you're justagirl?)

Adam,
Not sure I agree with that, just because someone's decisions could be/are influenced by there genetics doesn't mean they need an excuse. I'm sure some of my decisions are influenced by my genetics, but that's part of me and I will defend my genes if anyone dare insult them. (THEY ARE NOT DEFECTIVE! NO MATTER WHAT YOU ALL SAY.)

Also, free will has certainly never been proven. Personally I'm not sure exactly what it would mean. Either your will is deterministic or it has a random element. In either case, there are limits on what your will is free to do. If you are completely deterministic, what ever part of it you consider you can exert some influence on its future path. Personally I find that much more reassuring than there is some random element of my nature and I could suddenly do anything.

Our free will decides matters. Our genes may give us preferences or vague leanings, but our will decides. I don't see anything wrong with our genes. But I do see something wrong with people saying "It's not his fault, his genes made him do it". We have free will.

Adam,
Someone's genes are part of them. If they did it because of their genes then they are at fault. Even in an adult many brain functions are directed by genes. I'm not sure what you define as free will, but just saying we have free will means little to me.

My family history shows almost no sign of heart disease, cancer, diabetes, or just about anything else you could name. However, by my choice, I could go out and eat twelve Big Macs and twelve milkshakes each day and give myself a heart attack befoire I hit thirty years of age. Seems pretty damn clear to me.

Adam,
What makes you choose to go out and eat lot's of unhealthy food? Your brain, which is architected and run by genes and influenced by the ideas you are exposed to.

Which is at the heart of the discussion. What shapes your will? If it is deterministically unfolded from your conception onward then what exactly "free will" would be is unclear. If you want to debate it further though we should start (or revive) a free will thread on the philosophy forum.

I do believe that sexual orientation is innate, although there are cultural factors at work.

As proof, (I won't get into the whole 'gay gene' thing), I propose a thought experiment for heterosexuals:

When did you make the choice to be attracted to the opposite sex?

What I do feel is a choice is the label we give ourselves. I think I have mentioned this before, but I could easily be 'straight'. However, I choose to identify myself as bisexual (because it is a good way to meet guys ) simply because it is a more descriptive label.

My choice. I doubt anyone can choose whether or not to feel desire. What we choose is whether or not to act on that desire.

Which is more or less what Adam is saying. But he isn't saying it as well because he is not as brilliant or as wonderfull as I am.

Self-depreciation out of the way, as for 'excuse':

Bah humbug, who needs an excuse?

Edit to add:

A 'free-will vs. determinism' thread? What, did I accidentaly end up in 'alt.masochism.endlessphilosophicalarguments.pleas e.god.make.thehorrorend.'?

xev

When did you make the choice to be attracted to the opposite sex?

It was a no-brainer. As yet, I've never seen anything more desirable than the female body.

... except money of course.

The brain, which is your point here scilosopher, is not entirely ordered by our genes. The human brain develops in form and function based on how we school it, on what we learn. It continues to change throughout life. If you have never studied maths, and go now and enroll in a year-long solid maths course, your brain will change. New neural pathways will form. Our genes may supply the raw materials, but our will determines even the form and function of the brain itself.

Adam,
Let's avoid turning sciforums into the thing Xev fears. I said "influenced by the ideas you're exposed to". If the brain was totally genetic it would basically defeat it's purpose. In this case as in many others debate is often fueled more by differences in language than disagreement ...

Xev,
If a guy prefers bisexual women is that a sexual preference or a sexuality preference?

Quote:
Most people have 23 pairs of chromosomes, all shaped like Xs, except for one lone Y chromosome in pair 23 if you're male
**********

Our chromosomes are NOT shaped like Xs at all. They are more like rods (called chromatids).

When you see a picture of an X shaped chromosome, it is in the first stages of mitosis and has just finished duplicating itself.

The two chromatids go into their individual cell and we have a perfect copy of the original cell DNA.

Each chromatid has a partner to function with. 23 chromatids come from each parent.

But you would need to like Big Macs and Shakes.

Its a case of exercising the choice because of a prediliction for one orientation or the other, whether or not the choice is a conscious one.

Genetics can't have anything to do with it. If homosexuallity was genetic it would have been bred out thousands of years ago. Something affects a person psychologically while this part of the personality is forming that does this. I believe in the Bible, but I'm not going to change you preference by preaching that you're going to go to hell if you're gay. If, however, you decide to try to change to what's right, you have my full moral support.

That is so wrong dude. If that is true, all genetic diseases would have been bred out. Gays still reproduce.

what if you have no sexual desire? and you havnt been socialed to any sort of gender preference... your saying the ulimate descions between male and female is genitalia, when clearly it is not that cut and dry!@

"Unless we are physically forced to do something, everything we do is our choice, our free will. Sexual preference is a choice. To assume otherwise is to reduce the value or someone's choice, to say it is something that needs an excuse."

Ug. This is disturbingly right-wing American Christian of you.

It is a person's free will choice to decide whether or not to act on their sexual preference, not a choice on whether or not they are physically attracted.

What about if your culture does nto allow u to be your sexuality!! then its not your free choice is it!