did Jesus exist?

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Dreama, Jan 22, 2006.

  1. Dreama Registered Senior Member

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    Come Friday, courts in Italy will be hearing arguments as to whether Jesus Christ existed. Anyone here care to discuss the possibilities?

    Sunday, January 22, 2006; Posted: 9:06 a.m. EST (14:06 GMT)

    ROME, Italy (AP) -- Lawyers for a small-town parish priest have been ordered to appear in court next week after the Roman Catholic cleric was accused of unlawfully asserting what many people take for granted: that Jesus Christ existed.

    The Rev. Enrico Righi was named in a 2002 complaint filed by Luigi Cascioli after Righi wrote in a parish bulletin that Jesus did indeed exist, and that he was born of a couple named Mary and Joseph in Bethlehem and lived in Nazareth.

    Cascioli, a lifelong atheist, claims that Righi violated two Italian laws by making the assertion: so-called "abuse of popular belief" in which someone fraudulently deceives people; and "impersonation" in which someone gains by attributing a false name to someone.

    Cascioli says that for 2,000 years the Roman Catholic Church has been deceiving people by furthering the fable that Christ existed, and says the church has been gaining financially by "impersonating" as Christ someone by the name of John of Gamala, the son of Judas from Gamala.

    He also asserts that the Gospels -- the most frequently cited testimony of Jesus' existence -- are inconsistent, full of errors and biased, and that other written evidence from the time is scant and doesn't hold up to scholarly analysis.

    Prosecutors, who in Italy are obliged to investigate such complaints, initially tried to have the case dismissed, saying no crime could be verified.

    But Cascioli challenged them, and Judge Gaetano Mautone set a hearing for next Friday in Viterbo, north of Rome, to discuss preliminary motions in Cascioli's bid to have the court appoint technical experts to review the historical data and determine if Jesus really did exist.

    Cascioli, 72, said in a recent interview that he decided to pursue the case against Righi, a priest in the village of Bagnoregio, near Viterbo, because the cleric had written in the parish bulletin that Jesus existed.

    Asked why he went after Righi -- a schoolmate when he and Cascioli were boys -- and not any number of bishops, cardinals or even the pope who have asserted the very same thing, Cascioli said it didn't really matter who he named in his complaint.

    "When one demonstrates that Christ didn't exist, attacking a simple priest is the same thing as attacking a bishop or cardinal," Cascioli said.

    Cascioli is quick to stress that he has no problem with Christians freely professing their faith. Rather, he says in his complaint, he wants to "denounce the abuse that the Catholic Church commits by availing itself of its prestige in order to inculcate -- as if being real and historical -- facts that are really just inventions."

    Righi, who has been a priest for 50 years, declined to be interviewed on the advice of his lawyers before the pending court date. But he set out his rebuke of Cascioli in a recent issue of his parish bulletin "Risveglio," or "Awaken," and said by telephone that the article encapsulated his position.

    Righi argues that the existence of Christ is "unmistakable" because of the substantial historical evidence -- both pagan and religious -- testifying that he indeed lived.

    "Cascioli maintains that Christ never existed. If he doesn't see the sun at midday, he can't denounce me just because I do. He should denounce all believers!" Righi wrote.

    He cited many known observers, including non-Christian ones, who have written about the existence of Jesus, including the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, considered by scholars to be the most important non-Christian source on Christ's existence.

    A passage of Josephus' "Jewish Antiquities," completed in A.D. 93, cites the execution in A.D. 62 of "the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, James by name."

    Righi also cited Pliny the Younger, who in the early second century described a policy of executing Christians who refused to curse Christ, and Tacitus, another writer of the same time who wrote that Jesus was executed by the sentence of Pontius Pilate.

    "You would have to give lie to each, one by one, to cancel the Christ man that they speak of," Righi wrote.

    R. Scott Appleby, a professor of church history at the University of Notre Dame, concurs. There's "no real doubt" that Jesus existed, he said.

    "But what Jesus of Nazareth did and what he means is a different question," Appleby said. "But on the question of the existence, there is more evidence of the existence of Jesus of Nazareth than there would be for many other historical people who actually existed. Not only did Jesus actually exist, but he actually had some kind of prominence to be mentioned in two or three chronicles."

    Cascioli says he fully recognizes that his case has a slim chance of succeeding in overwhelmingly Catholic Italy, but not because his argument is lacking.

    "We aren't optimistic -- unless the Madonna makes a miracle, but I don't think that will happen," he joked.

    Cascioli says he is merely going through the necessary legal steps in Italy so he can ultimately take the matter to the European Court of Human Rights, where he intends to pursue the case against the church for "religious racism."

    "I was born against Christ and God," he said. "I'm doing it (the complaint) now because I should do it before I die."

    Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved



    http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/01/22/christ.book.ap/index.html
     
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  3. Mythbuster Mushroomed Registered Senior Member

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    There's absolute no prove that the guy existed other then a fantasy book called: BIBLE
    Not a single skull of him. The Romans had no records of a man named "Jesus".
     
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  5. Dreama Registered Senior Member

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    agreed, there is no physical evidence that such a person ever existed, but for the matter to be at trial, especially in Italy, is provacative, to say the least.
     
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  7. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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  8. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    If their defence rests on Tacitus and Josephus then they are in bad shape. The Josephus "evidence" is the closest to real evidence and that has already been shown to be fraudulent.

    There is no independent credible evidence for the existence of the Jesus character.
     
  9. Dreama Registered Senior Member

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    53
    Cris - thank you for the website, am reading it now. My interest in posting the thread for discussion was actually less about the mechanics and content of the lawsuit than for the discussion of possible ramifications. I seriously doubt that, no matter the outcome, anyone will really change their beliefs, but the thought of a world in which there is no 'right', or 'wrong' 'GOD', strikes me as quite wonderful. Nothing as ever caused so much war and pain as religion.
     
  10. FallingSkyward How much is there to know? Registered Senior Member

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    This is only the beginning of larger-scale accusations of Christ's nonexistence...

    www.thebeastmovie.com


    6/6/6, haha. I wonder how the younger(generally more skeptical) generation of Christians are going to take this movie. No doubt most non-christians will eat it up. Could this idea spread and have a profound effect on religious societies? We shall see.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2006
  11. Dreama Registered Senior Member

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    53
    Falling Skyward - just watched the trailer and read the 'about'.... this is a movie I will watch - thank you
     
  12. superluminal I am MalcomR Valued Senior Member

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    History seems to indicate that you are correct, at least not without much time and bloodshed.

    Amen.
     
  13. Mythbuster Mushroomed Registered Senior Member

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  14. Dreama Registered Senior Member

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    We are in accord, Superluminal.

    I can think of no 'sin', of any denomination, that has had greater impact than religion.
     
  15. Medicine*Woman Jesus: Mythstory--Not History! Valued Senior Member

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    *************
    M*W: Welcome to sciforums, Dreama. You have an interesting name.

    My thoughts dwell, too, on the ramifications of this lawsuit. In the big picture, this isn't the first time in Christian history that it's dogma has been challenged.

    I don't know anything about the Italian judicial system, but in a court of law in the USA, the only evidence for Jesus existing is entirely "hearsay." Therefore, it would not hold up in court.

    As I understand it, the small town priest and defendant in this case, is the one who bears the burden of proof, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Jesus did in fact exist. If nothing else results from this 'inquisition,' (oh, how I'm loving to use this word right now!), the lack of biblical credibility will brought to the public's attention.

    But, speaking as devil's advocate (hmmm...?), the little parish priest was only doing his job as per his job description... he was selling his product (religion) under the pretense of guaranteeing eternal life. How many organizations sell their products based on living, feeling, and looking better, longer? It's the same old spiel.

    If the priest is found guilty based on the lack of evidentiary proof, he has not committed a crime, per se. He believes the product he is selling is the best of all the other products on the same shelf. Therefore, he did not do his job with malice of forethought, because he did not know his product was faulty.

    I admire Luigi Cascioli and his efforts to bring some 'light' to the evil darkness which is christianity, and I'll probably buy his book, The Fable of Christ.
     
  16. Medicine*Woman Jesus: Mythstory--Not History! Valued Senior Member

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    M*W: Yes, one might think that a trial of this nature in Italy would be somewhat provocative, but not so. Italy is one of the fastest growing atheist countries in Europe! That really freaks the Roman Catholic Hierarchy, or so I've read.
     
  17. Dreama Registered Senior Member

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    Thank you for the welcome, Medicine Woman (your name is interesting, too). Luigi Cascioli, who happened to be a schoolmate of the little parish priest named in the lawsuit, said that it mattered not whether the person named in the suit was a bishop or the pope (small 'p'), or the parish priest, it was simply that the parish priest provided the needed 'evidence' for the court by stating his position that Jesus was factual in publication (newsletter sort of thing). I, too, am looking forward to a read of 'The Fable of Christ'. ... and also to this forum.

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  18. Medicine*Woman Jesus: Mythstory--Not History! Valued Senior Member

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    M*W: Interestingly, the computer image was a recreation by forensic artists who molded and shaped the "head of Jesus" according to physical features of men of his 'day.' One fine point I would like to mention is that the short hair depicted on this image was known to be the standard doo-of-the-day for a Roman -- not an Semite. Semites of the day kept their hair long. It protected them from the desert sun.
     
  19. geeser Atheism:is non-prophet making Valued Senior Member

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    he does exist, it could be your gardener.

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  20. qwerty mob Deicidal Registered Senior Member

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  21. Adstar Valued Senior Member

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    LOl the debate if Jesus existed or not is a pointless debate because He still exists

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    He has never ceased to exist and will exist into eternity. LOL


    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     
  22. mars13 give me liberty Registered Senior Member

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    considering theres more evidence to support santa clause then jesus im going to say NO,jesus is fake.

    besides,Odin would kick his pansy head in.
     
  23. Mythbuster Mushroomed Registered Senior Member

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    Especially when Jesus went on the top of a mountain and he could see all the kingdom. He proved that the earth was flat. Cardinals executed many scientists & astronomers in the past cause of it.
     

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