Sure, I've trashed a lot of religious arguments in my time and railed on a lot of christians, etc. I have over my time here though, come to realize a few things about god - from an evolutionary psychology perspective. For instance, it was brought up a few days ago in another thread that "god is one of the worst inventions EVER". I vehemently disagree and would like to state why and discuss it here. While I personally do not at all believe in god, the concept and believe are incredibly powerful. It is my opinion that it serves two fundamental purposes that have basically guaranteed the survival of our species over the millenia. Basically, the strong belief in god offers incredible personal strength and the religions that are derived based upon various god concepts promotes localized social unity. Personal Strength: Generally speaking when it comes to "accomplishement" in general, tasks that require will, perseverence and/or greatness in any amount - an individual's doubt is the most significant hurdle to overcome. In general, I cannot do something that I don't believe that I can do. God offers a coach without requiring an actual coach. It's an internal ideal projected to objectivity, more firmly the stronger the belief/faith of the individual in question. This belief offers an avenue of mental fortitude that may not be available to a non-believer. So you can lift the boulder off your friend because you believe god wills it, when otherwise you may shy away by the seemingly rational "that rock is way too heavy for me to lift". God is an enabler. This internal projection to the external world allows humans to rise above their percieved limitations. Their belief can translate to ascendance in their personal context. Belief in god's will is more powerful than their own will. Though it's really just their own will, this meme offers personal power. I haven't even touched on the whole "getting past mental difficulties of lost family, etc", in which case the strong beleif in god assists similarly. It can put a mind at ease that searches aimlessly for a reason to justify tragedy. God is the reason, and in the case of a strong faith - god is enough. Social Unity: While god can offer individuals power they may not be able to find otherwise, when in the form of a religion - god provides a common cause. The strength of humanity in terms of its capacity to survive is basically: intellect, opposable thumbs and the capacity to cooperate. Intellect and opposable thumbs are given, but the propensity for cooperation is not necessarily so. Humans can choose how they wish to apply themselves. Given the subjectivity of their stimulous, if they are not assimilated into some abstract framework, they by no means bound to participate in the welfare of the whole. God provides a very powerful framework indeed. It explains everything in terms of one simple concept - your mutherscratchinskydaddy. God fills the gaps between subjective takes on reality, binding them all together under the rituals and beliefs of whatever religious system that was created to prop the deity to its proper pedistal. God gives leaders the power to accomplish great things, by enabling willful cooperation of those bound by the religion. People are willing to die for god. True believers will do ANYTHING for god. This allows localized social groups the power of social unity, amplifying the force of an individual believer into the force of an army thereof. That's powerful stuff. As I see it, these two main contributors from the concept of god have allowed an acceleration of societies world-wide - not to mention fueling their clashes. While some may see clashes of religion as "horrible" (and I would agree), they are natural. They are an expression of the redistribution of divergent values, and could not be avoided. The imbalance in the equation (so to speak) forced the situations to resolve themselves. So there. God, with no physicality whatsoever has allowed humanity to succeed like no other species. Discuss.
Without God people can, do and will find their "Personal Strength" within them. Not only that, but I actually think the strength that comes from a belief in yourself is more potent, real, tangible and effective than strength that comes from belief in God. Social unity can and should be derrived from a common goal to succeed through cooperation and hard work. In both of these cases, belief in God serves to work against the community and person. In order for it to be a benefit, doesn't that require that it gives humans something they can not get otherwise, or at least something better than what they have to offer themselves?
Let me put it this way... You can either find happiness and peace withing yourself through positive action, introspective meditation, healthy living, fostering strong self-esteem and other methods of working on yourself and your view of the world. Or you can take an anti-depressant, and ignore all the rest.
Oh? For what reason? To what end? Sure maybe some people do, but the masses? I don't think so. Approx. 10% of humans have "leadership qualities". The rest find little without guidance. Without god people could, might and should find their "personal strength", but the many need a "higher purpose" as motivation to bother. That's because you don't believe in god. I don't think there's a difference really. It all comes from the individual, it's just the route that's in quesiton. Can and should don't cut it. I cite history as strong evidence to the contrary. Certainly there's been a lot of that, but the resultant empires and modern world are a result of humans stringing god memes along the ages. Uhm, you are putting yourself as the model human it seems. YOU might be able to get it otherwise, but I don't think "the masses" can at all. They offer this to themselves via their history and compulsion for its persistence. At least that's my opinion at the moment. It's not even necessarily "the masses" I suppose. It's just certain personality types I think. Meh. People obviously need god, and I'd say it's been a very fruitful tool for advancement through the ages. I would say also that the time for the need of such concepts is past, what's left is "cultural lag". Regardless I think the meme has served humanity well.
Wes, there is no doubt that God as a concept has facilitated the generation of civilisation and the pursuit of living without fear. The need to have a symbolic way of coping with what we do not know and because of that lack of knowing instinctively fear. [ issues such as our mortality ] However the concept of God has come at a price as well as we learn more and more about our reality our need to reliquish our dependancy on superstition causes us all some angst. As to drawing strength in the face of adversity or need it is often the case that symbols of strength can also aloow us to tap into reserves we did not necessrilly know we had. We as humans do this in so many ways and not just with notions of God. For example a golfer may gain inspiration from "Tiger" Woods, or a musician from NIrvana, or scientist froim Einstien. Of course morally we have greater dificulty in finding inspiration, however many works of literature and film offer such. The Bible is also a work of literature that can and does offer much guidance whether one is religious or not and using God as an ideal affords a direction for the "masses" to move towards. So using God as a way of fortifying oneself when faced with adversity for those persons who have not the desire to do the philosophical legwork is a easy and simple way of coping with such things. However as One_Raven has pointed out once one does the leg work and works out a significant personal life philosophy, the need for a god like symbol is not so strong but still present as we use our personal ideal as a symbol of our ideal thus "God" becomes more a reflection of your own personal ideal and not the structured ideologue that religion promotes for those less inclined to do the work. In evolutionary terms it is only recently that atheism and agnotism has become more acceptable in a general sense and I would suggest that in the future will become more the norm rather than the exception as peoples religious needs tend more and more to a Panthenistic pov. I do realise that your thread starter post is talking from an evolutionary perspective with direct and subtle reference to an extended period of human history. It is in this context that I have responded.
Wes, Yes, they have used God for these things, historically. I do not deny that. The fact that it is possible to not use God for such things, implies they do not "need" him or it. People do/believe/act how they are taught and raised most often. Children raised as Atheistic Buddhists do not feel the "need" for a God to provide these things to them. In a predominately Buddhist culture, "the masses" do not need God. And, in my opinon, are better off for not needing him, and rarther being self-reliant in the personal and collective sense.
Like hell, yeah. Once you get assaulted and raped, overpowered by other people or an animal or natural forces -- this will teach you a profound lesson of how helpless and powerless you really are in this universe.
Self-reliant? With all that karma, and not knowing what exactly it is? Like they say, "If you're a Christian, God will get you, and if you're a Buddhist, karma will get you." Really, Buddhists may not speak of God, but they have other ways of understanding that make them just as dependanble on other beings and events.
You are just as helpless and powerless as anyone else, thus you are just as self-sufficient and powerful as anyone else. Besides, how does believing in God make you any more powerful on earth or any less suceptible to rape/attack/natural disasters? You still get the SAME amount of physical damage done to your person whether you believe in God or not. Belief in God is not some magical force field. And as far as psychological... Not only do people who do not believe in God also recover from traumatic events. In fact, a positive outlook, belief in yourself and mind-over-matter have proven to accelerate the healing process. How does God make make you more powerful in these instances you brought up in ways that belief in yourself will not?
On what basis can one do such things? With what motivation? Why should one meditate? Also, the Christian concept of God, as I understand it, does not oppose what you are saying above.
What is your point? I was not saying the Buddhism is better or worse than Christianty. I am simply saying that people raised where "the masses" do not believe in God, do not feel teh need to believe in God, in opposition to what Wes was claiming. Besides, I said self-reliant in the collective sense as well. What I meant by that was self-reliant as a people, not just a person. A people who believe that other people is all they have to rely on, rather than dieties.
It's a question of identity. If you identify with your own strength, then you will lose your identity once this strength is overpowered. And soon enough, it can and will be overpowered. If you place your identity with God, for example, then your identity won't be threatened no matter what happens to you. No one has stated otherwise. WHY a positive outlook? On what basis is one to have a positive outlook? When I don't depend on myself and my limited and fluctuating abilities for who I am, I can feel secure for my identity. Depending on my sense of self, I am always endangered.
I don't understand the question. Are you asking me to prove it is possible to impriove your outlook and health through meditiation? Self improvement. I thought I made that clear. Self improvement. I thought I made that clear. Where did I say it does? :bugeye: You seem to be awfully defensive about this. I have not said that Christians are right or wrong, that God does or does not exist. Wes put forward the belief in God as a psycho-social tool and a necessity for humans to have a sense of empowerment and a common belief which pushes people to cooperate. I disagree. Whether or not people need to believe in a God, in the psychological sense, to derrive personal strength or to form communities has no effect what-so-ever on whether the Christian ideal of God does or does not exist.
Yes. But they have their "equivalent" of God. What God "does" in the Christian understanding, karma and awareness "do" in Buddhism. Basically, it's just different conceptualizations and different names of the same phenomenon -- that humans are dependent beings and not in control.
I agree with you. To have your identity so intrinsically tied to your physical prowess and powers is not a healthy outlook and not a healthy, consistent I HAVE been overpowered and I have NOT lost my identity. But that's because I am a lot more than my muscles and physical power. If you replace your identity with God you have already LOST your identity. You are relinquishing your identity, your strength, yourself in fears that it will be injured. I think that's absurd. Being attacked does not have to destroy who you are, and even if you relinquish all that to God, your psyche can STILL be destroyed by being attacked. This is teh reason so many people have "Crises of Faith" when being attacked, losing a loved one etc. This God you have placed all your strength and opiower into has failed them, it has failed to protect them. Besides, as I said, I am not saying it is wrong to believe in God, just that Wes's apparent idea that it is neccessary for making to progress and flourish is incorrect. Why? Because it is helpful. Because it is healthy. Perhaps I do not understand the question? Perhaps that's because you have poor self esteem. No one is perfect, and difficulty will always face you. Depending on yourself gives you the impetus to improve yourself. The more you improve, and the more self reliant you become, the greater your faith in your abilities to achieve and succeed will become and the more you will improve as a result. It is an upward spiral. Depending on God does not necessarily do that. "God is perfect, he will take care of me."
Not quite. God has intention, cognizance, wisdom, foresight, hindsight... Karma is simply cause and effect of actions. With Karma, uman beings ARE in control of their own destiny (just as in some flavors of Christianity, they are) but Karma is quite different from Abraham's God.
Pardon all the typing errors. I was running like mad for a few minutes there to try and keep up with you, water. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Now I don't feel like going back and fixing it all.
The short of what I was trying to say is this: If you are grasping onto a belief in God resulting from fear of being hurt (again) not only are you selling yourself short and opening yourself even more widely to being hurt by not working on your own defenses, strengths (inner and outer) and further eroding your self-esteem, but your faith is hinged upon what God can do for you (protection) and is therefore on shaky ground that becomes more and more unstable as the cycle continues progressing towards being hurt (again) and once it happens (because, as you said, it is bound to), your faith gets shattered, because God didn't hold up his end of the bargain. So, at this point, you have little to no solid standing for any valid self-esteem, you have lost faith in God, you have lost faith in yourself and you have a hell of a time finding the strength and will to begin building yourself up again without something to believe in or depend on. I've seen it happen, and it's not pretty. No, I am not saying it is inevitable, I am saying that it happens, and is facilitated by substituting self-esteem and faith in one's self with faith in God alone.
You've just described idiot faith in God. This is when a person believes they can exist separately from God, yet still put all their trust in God.
