King Herod is an actual historical figure who lived about 73 BC - 4 BC. His death occurred at the beginning of a Passover that was some time preceded by a lunar eclipse that happened the night he executed Rabbis Judas and Matthias and their pupils who had smashed the golden bird symbol for Rome which he had placed on the temple he had restored. This is according to the historian, Joseph ben Matthias also known as Flavius Josephus (37/38 AD --around 100 AD). Ernest Martin located a full eclipse on January 10, 1 BC which occurred 12 1/2 weeks prior to Passover, however Herod's successors Antipas, Philip, and Archelaus all appear to have taken their reigns in 4 BC and the chronology of datable events in the Roman Empire best fit with Josephus' description of the circumstances of Herod's death give a date of 4 BC. There was a 40% partial eclipse March 13, 4 BC which would have been difficult to see, but could have possibly been calculated in Josephus time and used by him to reference the death date. Jupiter(the planet of royalty) and Saturn(protector of Israel) underwent three conjunctions in 7 BC in the constellation Pisces (associated by ancient Babylonian or Persian magi with the nation of Israel), not of which would have appeared as a bright star, but the astronomical events would have caught the eye of any attentive magi of the time and as their definition of a star would have differed from the scientific definition of today, they may have referred to the astronomical events as stars. The two planets were found again in the constellation Pisces as well as Mars on Feb 6, 6 BC. Michael Molnar found that Jupiter underwent an occultation with the moon in the constellation Aries on April 17, 6 BC and again on December 19, 6 BC. Aries is a ram/lamb which would be associated with Israel due to their sacrifices or by Christians with Jesus. The April 17 occultation occurred near the sun during the day and wouldn't have been seen, but given greater attention due to the previous astronomical events any good magi following Jupiter and tracking the moon would have known that this would occur and that on April 17 when this would occur, it would be "in the east". August 23 Jupiter reversed its apparent motion and "went before" anyone following it until it "stood over" being stationary in the transition of its apparent motion right on the second occultation of December 19. William's Comet Catalog of 1871 identifies a comet visible in 5 BC It was visible from Mar 10 to Apr 27. Such a comet would disappear and reappear as it moved behind the sun which does correspond to Matthew witch inferred that it did so. Finally, Chinese astronomers recorded a new star, a nova, in the constellation Capricorn visible March to April of 5 BC, for over 70 days. Herod was an evil warmongering king that had many of his own family killed including two of his sons Aristobulus in 7 BC and Antipater in 4 BC. The later may also have sought the life of any prophesied king of Israel accounting for Matthews's statement that those who had sought the life of Jesus had died. However, the slaughter of the babies under two years old by Herod has no basis in history. It is utterly mythical and can be traced back to Krishna, another former Christ story. There was also no great taxation of Israel wherein folks had to return to their birthplaces and the only census by Quirinius when he was the actual governor of Syria was conducted in (6 - 7)AD. On the other hand he did established a seat of government in Syria, including Palestine, from 10 BC to 7 BC in which he would have been responsible for the census of Romans, not Jews, that took place in 7 BC. The new testament gives two contradictory genealogies for Joseph. If they are fictitious and Joseph was a Roman then he could have taken part in the census, but such a census still would not have required the participants to return to their homeland and would have been finished prior to the (6-5)BC astronomical events. Apparently the nativity is also a fiction. It can be traced to the Egyptian mythology where Meh(Meri, Mary) whose consort was Seb (lord or god - Seb, Yo-Seb, Joseph) had a virgin birth of Horus in a cave or manger amongst the beasts under a star, were visited by three magi bearing gifts, and then fled from the serpent Herrut. It appears that someone drawing on the similarity between Herrut and Herod and given the astrological signs decided to fabricate a reason that such a Horus/Krishna/Christ type being would be born amongst beasts about that time. Recalling that there was a census conducted around that time and such were related to taxes, the Horus story was recreated in terms of an Israeli Messiah born in a manger due to no room during a tax. Here we find the birth of modern Christianity.
Dude, why do you take so much time trying to convince yourself that Christ wasn't divine? Isn't simple unbelief sufficient enough to separate yourself from Christ/Christianity? People hardly read the bible, you think they're gonna read your 2,000 posts of unlinear speculations? You're trying to do forensic reseach on things that occured thousands of years ago. Go compile a book of writings from all the ancient heiroglyphs or wherever you think you're getting your data from, then translate them correctly and publish them. Then circulate them, and distribute them. Until then---your just radiating hogwash amongsts the few dozen people you associate with, wishing you guys never knew a thing about Christ. Seriously get over it. Or get some faith.
I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Nisus, The issue is quite straightforward - the nativity didn't occur according to the best evidence available. I thought this was well known and widely accepted. This is not a new issue and these aren't Trilairians opinions. And BTW his post count is 175 not 2000.
What best evidence..? If there are Ancient Documents and publications to consider, then you should include those in the post. But all he has is an inference, that's not evidence. That's and idea. 2k posts was an exaggeration =p
I'd very much like to see where he got his Data from... but I already know before hand it's not evidence.
This attitude is called displacement. You must be the one trying to convince yourself of something. Instead of Reading just far enough to see that the info is something you don't want to know and immediately responding with insults and no valid arguements, why don't you do some research and find out for yourself that I am telling the truth. I am only interested in the facts and the facts indicate that there was astrolonomical events and a Herod that die shortly thereafter as Christians assert, but the facts also indicate that the rest of the Nativity was a fabrication inspired by those events and the parallel between Herod and Herrut. This is apparently what inspired the creation of the modern version of Christianity.
In other words a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. Everything I posted is public knowlege now. Look it up.
Whatever dude just grab your "evidence" i'm not gonna believe what you say without documentation or publications. So you know that Christ wasn't born, you have like a census record or what? Or a testimonial written by all the people in bethlehem? No evidence, no validity, congratulations on another unsubstantiated claim. Who then fabricated the Nativity? Was it one person or a group of people? You have record of their lives and history? No, you don't and i'm not gonna go surfin around the web till my hairs fall out just to find some corny Jesus-hater websites. Get some documents/publications and translations of where you claim your data came from. Then we can make the deduction for ourselves. Otherwise you're not even basing your ideas on anything valid. Just speculation and ideas. And CRIS! You're the one that rides on --demanding evidence. How can you say such a thing?! I'm not gonna take what he says at face value just like you guys won't take what I say. Now scrounge up some documentation. And we'll get to discussing this matter. Edit* Consolidated Posts- I'm not looking for anything else other than evidence... c'mon. Don't get offended just back it up.
You aren't going to believe me either way, so why do I care? I'm doing this more as a part of my own research into it than for you. If I happen to convince a few fence sitters of the truth then good. Look it up and you'll see I'm telling the truth. Don't look it up and you have no valid argument. I don't much care either way. I'm not telling you any man wasn't born. I am informing you that the Nativity was fabricated and what inspired it at that time. I have given you plenty enough detail to look up the info for yourself so stop being lazy and look it up. Until you do you have no valid argument against it and if you do then you will find out that I am telling you the truth. Personally I think you are so scared that your religion has been disproven by me, and it has, that you won't search even one date that I've listed.
All that energy you just spent writing that post, should have been used in sourcing your data. I'm not lazy, i'm not scared etc. I'm just asking you to do the same thing that you athiests ask of me. Give me some PROOF. Otherwise it's just preaching what you've read without even citing a verse. I know sufficient about king Herod i've looked him up on Wikipedia before Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! BUT--- your claim is that the Birth of Jesus Christ was fabricated. Trust me I will consider your information, if you can provide any. Yes I seriously doubt any of it even has an inference to the birth of Jesus, but you seem to have deduced this. So Chop chop, quit being lazy and cite your sources otherwise you fail. No proof. And your argument is just as good as any other religious persons.
Nisus, It's been discussed here several times before with references and I've researched it independently. I don't need to be convinced again.
Yes, heavy indeed is burden of truth to bare. I'll remember this next time you ask me for proof! 11/4/2005 3:33 PM PST. All I wanted was some evidence! Actually, the burden of truth rests upon Tril. So, he knows the ball is in his court.
I agree Tril shoud perhaps add some more support. I simply wasn't offering at this time. Of course you could have simply asked him rather than become so confrontational.
If he would have asked nicely I would have given him some. As for burden of proof I feel none because I already provided sufficient information to prove my point, and because I am not making the religious claims that contradict the historical evidence, and because I don't care to reference every sentence I write. Everything I wrote is well documented and he's not going to believe me unless he does some research and looks it up for himself, and until he does so he has no argument to the contrary anyway.
Yup OK - there is quite a bit there already. As a readability observation - how about throwing in some white space next time in long posts - more people would read them.
We'll just skip all the star talk and get to the meat. Meh is more formally known as Hathor. Mehturt was the former spelling as well as Mehurt, Mehet-Weret, and Mehet-uret. Explain how you turn Meh into Mary, and also why you choose to recognize her as Meh, an alternative form, over Hathor. So you have Hathor, Meh, Mehturt, Mehet-Weret and Mehet-Uret (5 names to choose from)and you say that = Mary? Yes Meh begins to look more like Mary when you write Meh(meri Mary), and you choose Meh over Hathor. And Meri comes from where? It comes from: Hathor>Mehet-Weret>Mehet-Uret>Mehturt>Meh... then Meri(which is Tril's way of turning Hathor into Mary). But to be more technical we'll use the formal name Hathor and compare that to the Judeo-Aramaic form of Mary which is Maryām. Sorry Hathor doesn't = Maryām to me. Hathor = a cow-deity (in egypt). Maryām = Mother of Yeshua (aka Jesus Christ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hathor (or type in Meh, and you will be redirected to the more appropriate name, Hathor.) Consort: 1. A husband or wife, especially the spouse of a monarch 2. A companion or partner. Hathor is not companion, partner or wife of Seb. She is the wife of Ra. If you were trying to be as correct as possible you would have said GEB. Whose alternative forms of spelling his name are as follows; Seb and Keb. Not Yo-Seb, Joseph. Keb's wife is actually Nuit. Not Hathor. Keb doesnt = Yosef Yosef = Husband of Maryām http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geb (or type in Seb, and you will be redirected to the more formal recognition, Geb) Add manger to further miscontrue and interpolate and you get closer to sounding like the Nativity of Jesus, but fact, truth, and reason all negate the possibility...as attested from the above explanation. Where did you get Magi from? Manger, and Stars?
Sort of. I thought I had explained this here before, ,maybe not. Originally Mehet-Weret, Nut, and Hathor were separate cow goddesses. Mehet-Weret was the Nile goddess, Hathor was the mother of Horus, and Nut was the mother of Ra. Mythically the Nile was connected to the sky through the underworld. Mehet-Weret would therefor be the one who would help the pharaoh and Ra reach the sky. In a way it makes sense they would think this as the rainwater must get up there somehow. For this she became known as the right eye of Ra. Nut being the mother of Ra was thought to give daily birth to the sun, but since Mehet-Weret was also thought do deliver Ra the sun god to the sky, through syncretism the identity of Nut was absorbed into Mehet-Weret. The name from one generation to another changed. The etymology down to the book of the dead was ........................................................Mehet-Weret ................................Mehetweret.....................................Mehit-Weret ........................................................................................Mehitwer ................................Mehueret.........................................Methyer ................................Mehturt ................................Meh-Urt and from there to the mother and wife of Jesus and possibly to Miriam celebration leader: ................................Meh ................................Meri ..Mary moth. of Jesus,..Mary Magdalene,.....Miriam(Exodus 15:20) Horus, sun of Hathor inherits the sun and in doing so Meh-Urt who was known as the right eye of Ra became the right Eye of Horus, but also since Nut who was absorbed into Meh-Urt gave birth to the sun daily Meh-Urt then became the birth mother of Horus who was then the sun god and the identity of Hathor was then absorbed into Meh-Urt as well through synchretism. Since Meh-urt was Horus's right eye which eye represented the sun, the moon then was represented by Horus's left eye and his adoptive father Seb became the speckled cow, the left eye of Horus in the book of the dead,as he was consort of Meh-Urt. Above. I cut a lot of the rest of your argument because the above proves it wrong. From Meh. Yes through synchretism Hathor becomes Mary. Through the correct etymology lord Keb does so. I just proved you wrong. From the Nativity of Meh..
