What do they mean when they say the Universe is expanding?

Discussion in 'Astronomy, Exobiology, & Cosmology' started by rug, Nov 3, 2005.

  1. rug Registered Member

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    Can you actually say the universe is expanding? I'm not too sure but I think when we say universe we mean everything that exists anywhere. So for the universe to expand there needs to be space (or something) somewhere.

    But then isn't this space supposed to be part of the universe?

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  3. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    As an anology, imagine the whole universe is the surface of the Earth. Take some objects and locate them at different points on the Earth's surface. Now, suppose the Earth expands. All of the objects move further apart from each other, as measured along the surface. However, no "new" surface has been created - the surface has simply stretched.

    This is the kind of thing which is happening to the space in our actual universe.
     
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  5. Roman Banned Banned

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    I find it funny how we can say "this is what's happening" so authoritatively. Reality's so dodgy.
     
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  7. rug Registered Member

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    If the Earth (Universe) is stretching doesn't it need space (or something) outside of it's "boundaries" and isn't whatever it is that is outside this "boundary" part of the universe too?
     
  8. cheio Registered Member

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    Someone correct me if i'm wrong. We don't know what's outside of 'space', but we do everything is moving away from each other. In billions of years there will be no more stars in our sky, well in theory.
     
  9. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    rug:

    In my analogy, the Earth's surface is supposed to represent the entire universe. The centre of the Earth, in this picture, is not part of the universe, and neither is anything which is "above" the ground. The picture is of a 2-dimensional universe. The expansion can be pictured as having that 2-D surface embedded in a 3-D space, but the 3-D space isn't part of the actual universe.

    The analogy is supposed to be easier to visualise than our real universe, but you can start to imagine what the real situation is like by bumping everything up by 1 dimension. Then you can consider our 3-D universe as embedded in a 4-D (unvisualisable) space. When our universe expands, all distances in 3-D increase equally. The 3-D space stretches, but not into additional 3-D space. It only stretches into additional 4-D space, if you're using that picture, and the 4-D space is not really part of the universe.
     
  10. RoyLennigan Registered Senior Member

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    that's exactly how it is. once you get the idea of a sphere in your head, just imagine adding another dimension. you could say the surface of the sphere is the present, inside the sphere is the past, and outside the sphere is the future. the sphere is expanding, so the surface area is getting larger (the space between objects in the universe is increasing) but then that would make the spacial universe 2 dimensions. so to make it accurate to our universe, you just add another dimension. its just really hard to visualize it because we have only ever conceived of 3 dimensions on a normal basis.
     
  11. rug Registered Member

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    JamesR and RoyLennigan, I think I see what you mean. It's stretching in hyperspace.

    Would I be correct if I deduce that the universe is actually infinite but space is stretching thus causing galaxies to move away from each other?
     
  12. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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  13. rug Registered Member

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    Thanks for clearing that up.
     
  14. allisone Registered Member

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    Ok, wait...

    If the universe is infinite, and we're just a part of an expanding 3-D type sphere of space within that infinite universe, then it's possible that there are other (perhaps even an infinite amount of!) expanding 3-D type spheres of space like our own, yes?


    (I would have started a new thread with this question, but it's so dependent on this one that I decided against it...)
     
  15. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Yes, it's possible, allisone. However, if other such universes exist, then they can't communicate with out universe or affect it in any way, since there is no point at which the spacetimes of the two universes can connect to each other.
     
  16. Azzy42 Registered Senior Member

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    The Bubbles Universes theory doesn't work in my mind. What would be between the Universes? Am I correct in saying that space-time does not exist between the Universes.
     
  17. jack54 Registered Senior Member

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    Yes, as far as I understand it (basically from what I've read in this thread), space-time would not exist between multiple universes. They would coexist in the 4 dimensional space, right?
     
  18. john smith Tongue in cheek Registered Senior Member

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    In response to the thread question-

    When scientists say that "the universe is expanding" they are reffering to the big bang theory.

    When the big bang occured there was an immense expolsion (obviously), and, as everyone knows when an explosion occurs, the fragments/matter are blow outwards i.e. when a frag grenade explodes.

    The same happend in our solar system, and i suppose in others, the force of the big bang is still pushing the universe outwards, making the universe 'expand'. Thats what i picked up in Gcse physics anyways.

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  19. PsychoticEpisode It is very dry in here today Valued Senior Member

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    Does matter displace space? Each and every particle needs room. Matter must occupy an equivalent volume of space. The introduction of matter into spacetime resulted in a less dense spacetime making room for it. Perhaps the expansion is merely matter making room for itself. Something has to give way. If there is finite matter then expansion will stop eventually, no? In the beginning it may have been very difficult to move space but over the years space gradually weakens its position allowing matter to speed up the settling in. Spacetime and matter are like oil and water.

    Nobody knows but I think it important to put stuff out there that others can read, laugh at or take seriously and run with. Sometimes innocent remarks stimulate the genius of fellow human beings. Not that mine will.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2005
  20. Azzy42 Registered Senior Member

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    If matter were to displace spacetime would that mean that time doesn't exist within matter. Can't think logically how that would work?
    But I guess one can view Einsteins classic theory of relativity as matter displacing/bending spacetime directly proportional to its mass.
    Am I wrong in saying so?
     
  21. jack54 Registered Senior Member

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    Sorry to dredge up an old thread, but I just have a question regarding this:

    As space-time expands, do the objects on it's surface (ie, in your analogue, the objects on the earth) stretch and get bigger too? Like, if you draw a dot on a piece of rubber then stretch it, the dot too gets bigger.
     
  22. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Yes, they do. So, as space expands, the atoms in your body try to get further apart. However, gravity is not the only force which acts on your body. Electromagnetic forces are much stronger on that scale. So, the expansion of space "tries" to pull the molecules in your body further apart, but electromagnetic forces pull them back together. The overall effect is that galaxies move apart from each other (because the electromagnetic forces between them are insignificant compared to gravity) but the atoms in your body stay close together.
     
  23. revprez Registered Member

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    They mean that distance scales increase over time (in the reference frame of the universe). Forget all those analogies about balloons and rubber sheets; you don't need them when you consider length contraction in different reference frames in special relativity, you shouldn't need them here.
     

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