Arabia's Flying Mujah ed-Din I can't substantiate the following, but very strongly suspect it to be true. The 15 Saudi hijackers of 9-11 were not your average wild-eyed fanatics, and not your average airline trainees: Some were more than passingly acquainted with tactical flying, and some were experienced in killing people hand-to-hand. Those specific hijackers who controlled these jets were well-experienced with high speed at low altitude. Those who manipulated the controls on that clear but ugly day, autopilots of heavily loaded jets disengaged, hand-flying through 4-g turns at over 400 knots at altitudes in a corner of the flight envelope where airline pilots never go, not even in moments of recreational sim time, and rarely in daydreams: Where accelerated stalls, compressibility buffeting, adverse elastic oscillation/pilot-induced oscillation were a very near and present threat. These pilots did not learn to go so fast, low, and boldly, with such positive control at civilian flight schools in light piston twins and Level 3 Boeing simulators. These training environments are not equipped or staffed to produce pilots with the necessary skills to accomplish the hideous mission of 9-11. These experienced pilots acquired their elite and necessary skills in F-5Bs and F-15s based at Dhahran and King Khaled airbases in the Kindom of Saudi Arabia. These well-trained military pilots were trained by American instructors, among whom were graduates of Miramar, who had proven themselves to be excellent instructors, several with considerable Mideast life experience. The training records of these murderous and determined pilots and their instructors were once on file in multiple locations both in Saudi Arabia and in the US. I very strongly suspect that what I am accusing is common knowledge above certain levels of the military, all the way to the Pentagon and White House, and that there is a considerable chance of a credible leak exposing a paper trail. Disclaimer: I can't prove it, I'm not stupid, and I have not, and have never had, any access whatsoever, authorized or otherwise, to classified information or information regarding classified materials pertaining to this subject. But the American People have the need to know, and in time, we will. J'accuse.
Well hype it is quite an assertion... it makes sense. But hype how do you know? Or are you hunching here? But I must admit I never even thought of this. If any of you have FS2002 or other flight Sims, it is very hard to control a lumbering 767, or 757. I could just imagine the stresses on the airframe, and the motion sickness of the passengers. I have a hard time believing that a 757 hit the Pentagon: http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone/erreurs_en.htm 9/11 was a weird experience for all of us to decipher...
Toy flight sims, or even multi-million-$ full-motion sims can't simulate what we're discussing in any useful preparatory sense. Bring a big Boeing down to low altitude at high speed, and things get very very twitchy wobbly, scary, and impossible to accurately control- that is without extensive high-speed low-altitude training. Make a 2-oz 1/2-second inadvertant control input, say control wheel forward as the stabilizer trim gets behind a 50-lb. pitch trim change ( this can happen in 3 seconds taking a large Jet 1000' downhill at high power settings with a clean wing) results in 3 negative Gs RIGHT NOW. A large jet can easily be pulled apart, rapid inflight breakup can quickly develop at these speeds and altitudes, with nothing more than one sharp pull or push on the controls. What's more, a 4-g turn is required to reverse over Jamaica Bay, and there is no time for overshoot or altitude bobbles as rollout and impact happen within 15 seconds. "RRemaining seated and buckle ub, ladies and gentlemans, this will not be hurrrting." These were fighter pilots trained in low-altitude high-speed gravity weapons delivery: To take out a target, an attack pilot must ballisticly be the weapon until release. To impact weapon, fighter, and all in one fireball, as happens too frequently on weapons ranges, all you have to do is target-fixate for an extra 3 seconds or less. These pilots had special knowledge about jet ground attack and target fixation. They embraced both.
"I have a hard time believing that a 757 hit the Pentagon" Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Aluminum and composite structures are rapidly consumed in a contained impact and explosion within a massive concrete structure. Almost every part of that jet was shredded into small pieces and then exposed to the extremely fierce heat resulting instantaneously when thousands of gallons of kerosene are atomized, mixed with air, and detonated. There is no mystery or doubt that a 757 hit the Pentagon at high speed, and nothing anomalous about the results. This is like ramming your car into a bridge abutment at 300 mph with extra cans of fuel in the back seats: Not much is recognizable afterwards, unless you are familiar with high kinetic- and thermal- energy crashes. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
hypewaders The pics show quite a different story Hype, the website I provided clearly shows that not even the wings survived. Also I can’t fathom that the RR engines would not hit the ground before impact with the pentagon. Also the video just before the craft hit the building showed the craft coming in at a horizontal (glide) into the Pentagon? Also not even the tail (horizontal stabilizer) survived? That always has the best chances of surviving even the most horrid of crashes. The 757 wings didn't survive at all either? Not even the flaps, or engine pods? I find it extremely hard to believe that a huge 757 would leave almost NO wreckage... I mean look even at the Tenerife accident that would a huge fireball, but there was still wreckage. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
American 77 was a high-speed bank shot. Some people confuse a low-energy crash like Tenerife or Ron Brown's, or even an energy-dissipating breakup like Lockerbie with the very different debris field that results every time in a high-speed impact: Even in an open field like UAL 93, if an entire large aircraft impacts at anything over about 250 knots, there are no large bits left, and most everything recognizable is consumed in the heat. One exception was Eagle 4184 in Roselawn, Indiana- In that one which impacted vertically nosefirst, the tail section popped off like a cork before the contents of the fuselage was ejected vertically, and the tail section landed outside the fireball. In a high energy crash into a structure resembling a large oven, thin structures like wings, control surfaces, tail (which is a fuel tank on a heavy jet) are instantly shredded. Within the large fire that follows, magnesium, aluminum, and composite confetti remaining from these large structures all become ash within seconds.
hypewaders Got it now bob! Just wondering is there precedent on this? Is there another crash that has had almost the same circumstances? I actually there is (lol, talking to myself)here: Air New Zealand DC-10 Antarctic crash 1979 Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Negative: That's a low-speed impact, at less than 200 knots, and hence the big chunks. Below 10,000' descending heavy jets are at near idle power, have extended drag producing surfaces, and must not exceed 200 or 250 knots, depending on location. The crash you refer to was controlled (normal) flight into terrain the crew were unaware of: It was an impact during a routine slow descent. As an aside, when I removed the wreckage of a high-speed light airplane crash from thick woods, it was only necessary to cut one part of the wreck to carry everything out of the woods by hand. Other than that cut, and occasionally prying heavy small objects out of the ground and out of trees, we just picked up pieces of structure and walked out to a roadside 1/4 mile away... and all of this destruction I witnessed was without a fire. The exponential difference in devastation in impacts above 250 knots, as opposed to slower ones, is hard to imagine until you have seen it.
Ok thus I would assume that you would think that the men who went into the Pentagon were also militarily trained pilots of the Saudi AF. But hype, I have my ideas on motive. But what are your reasons for them to do that? What is your motive, were they Al Qaeda or did the administration have a implicit hand in the attack?
There is no evidence, motive, or behavior to suggest any component of the W Bush admin desired or allowed 9-11. However, there were warnings that were ignored at high levels, and in the aftermath the administration worked very hard to rapidly put distance and deniability between themselves and some shifty Saudis that they had ties with. Within the gamut of contacts made in the Kingdom due to the oil biz were elements of al-Qaeda. A great deal of the structure of al-Qaeda became apparent to the Bush administration after 9-11, but information along those lines was judged too politically dangerous to an American cabinet comprised largely of petroleum executives. Behind the bunting of the Bush Administration is a cabal that is very quick to panic. Although the Administration is not responsible for al-Qaeda attacks including 9-11, they hold the opinion that much information is too confusing for the American public. They believe that they can manufacture durable sanitized versions of events, better to keep sensitive deals in the Mideast intact, to avoid politically dangerous association, and better to promote their wider agendae.
As to the motivations of those who hacked their way into cockpits and flew themselves and hundreds of innocents into their targets, I don't imagine there was anything particularly remarkable about them: Fervor, loyalty, revenge or detached single-mindedness, all in ready supply within all of us, given severe circumstances. Nice American boys do very bad things to innocent strangers on a regular basis lately. We call it duty, honor, country, they call it Jihad, fought with all available means.
Flight path plots? Has anybody seen an accurate portrayal of the aircrafts' flight paths and speed? It should be reconstructable for the second aircraft, at least. Could go a long way towards supporting or refuting your hype-othesis.
hype, ok let's just cut to the chase here. Are you saying the pent knew of the training of these pilots and the intended purpose of this training?
No. I'm saying that they are suppressing information after the fact that would help in exposing and eliminating the organization that perpetrated 9-11. I'm saying that US leadership is unwilling to publicly reveal a dangerous splintering that is under way in Saudi Arabia, that permeates into relationships between US and Saudi oil biz. US leadership is aware of changes ahead in the Mideast power structure that will shift alliances, and it has frightened them into near panic. They are attempting to leverage new footholds before more dramatic events occur that will remove preferential sales in Dollars from Saudi oilfields. This administration is also attempting to avoid embarrassment over unfortunate associations with entities that are now seeking to undermine American interests in the mideast: They have been double-crossed, and don't want the public to know it.
"Has anybody seen an accurate portrayal of the aircrafts' flight paths and speed?" Flight Paths Time reported the impact speed estimates at the WTC as 470 and 590 mph Purdue University impact analysis
These experienced pilots acquired their elite and necessary skills in F-5Bs and F-15s based at Dhahran and King Khaled airbases in the Kindom of Saudi Arabia. These well-trained military pilots were trained by American instructors, among whom were graduates of Miramar, who had proven themselves to be excellent instructors, several with considerable Mideast life experience. The training records of these murderous and determined pilots and their instructors were once on file in multiple locations both in Saudi Arabia and in the US ok, so these men were trained through official means, in official military facilities. Now there can (as I see it) be the following scenarios: 1)Saud/US have no ties with AQ (obvious right?) so the men enlisted to these facilties were AQ members that had gotten in undetected (easy enough) without official knowledge. 2) AQ deliberately targets these men since it knows they have the skills that are so useful to the AQ cause. AQ targets these men, and "turns" them to the cause. 3) #2 but there was official knowledge, but nothing was done about it. ????
My allegations regarding US government are that after the events of 9-11, the War on Terror was manipulated to tamper with the evidence and with public opinion. It is not unprecedented for the US to provide a country with state-of-the-art weapons and training, and then get caught flat-footed when there is revolt (see Iran). A suspicious money trail leading to Saudi dissidents was ignored. A suspicious training trail leading to RSAF training may have been suppressed. A very special and hush-hush air charter chauffered Saudis home to the Kingdom while no US citizens were permitted to fly in their own country on 9-12-01. Many odd things have been disregarded and suppressed. A frightened and angry America was distracted from following many indicators of what actually happened, but was instead strongarmed into directing our fury at another regional mideastern agenda previously revealed in expressions like the Project for a New American Century. In high circles it was probably rationalized that it would all work out through the blossoming of US hegemony over the Mideast- That we would get to the 9-11 bad guys after changing the regional political landscape. Trouble is, that's not what they told the public. Trouble is, it's not working. Meanwhile, the clique in the seat of power are covering up the manipulation of intelligence, the press, and public opinion. Meanwhile, the colonialization of the Mideast is failing (again). When this is over and a larger extent of the truth is revealed, the neocons will have hell to pay. But back to the core of this thread, would anyone like to defend an opposing theory, that the Saudis who flew heavy jets at high speed into ground targets needed no military flight training?
Karma If your assertions are true hype, then what could happen to US -S.A relations? Espeically in the sense of the militaristic co-op? I mean if the RSAF did know something about this or was even involved in some sense, can the US actually cut ties with S.A? I very highly doubt, that is why we today see the "blacked out" parts of that 9/11 report. The economic and political implacations would be grand at best. The Sauds are going to it seems eventually lose power, with the apparant strength of AQ in her territory, with two huge bomb attacks et al. This is a very Karmatic situation in SA I should say...
Better analysis needed I have a couple of ancillary questions: I can't believe that the FBI, going over wreckage of the WTC with a fine toothed comb as they did, failed to find either CVR or Flight Data Recorder. Not even scraps, for Allah's sake? Be that as it may, I would like to see a sober analysis of the last two minutes of radar data on United 175. That ought to tell the tale on whether a bunch of amateurs could or could not have executed the terminal approach. Hysteria aside, a few conspiracy sites raise an interesting point about the Pentagon attack - the aircraft came in at an EXTREMELY flat angle - the pilot practically greased it on before hitting the building. A skillful piece of flying meant to penetrate the maximun horizontal distance. If it were me I'd be concerned about hitting short - I'd go for a real steep kamikaze approach and aim more or less for the middle of the Pentagon. Anyway, does that radar data exist, or is it classified, too? It would be interesting to take a bunch of real low-time commercial jet pilots and see if they could replicate the attacks in a simulator without fucking up. I bet they couldn't. I couldn't do it in FS2000, and I was all relaxed with a beer and a bag of doritos.
"if the RSAF did know something about this or was even involved in some sense" It would be extremely unlikely and illogical for Prince Bandar, for example, or any RSAF command to be complicit in aiding the enemies of the Kingdom in anything: Remember, Qaeda wants Saudi leadership dead. What is curious, even extremely suspicious, is that everything that leads to Arabian extremists, to enemies within the Saudi Kingdom, is downplayed, quashed, and ignored by present US leadership. Why? Probably for the same reason that no substantive evidence has been revealed regarding the 9-11 airliners, their CVRs, FDRs, etc: We can retrieve them from the Lockerbie crash, from shuttle disasters, but not this.:bugeye: The Saudi Royal family routinely practice denial and royal solidarity in response to domestic problems or scandals. Apparently the US govt operates in the same way regarding the so-called War on Terrorism. This indicates a possibility that not only do they value royal Saudi friendships more than fighting al-Qaeda, but also a possibility something embarassing to the administration could be linked to al-Qaeda's Arabian operations. Not cooperation with Qaeda, but perhaps a major fuckup concerning them. Conspiracy theories about US govt complicity with al-Qaeda seem entirely ridiculous to me. What is far more likely is that the very base of "The Base", Qaeda's Arabian operations, are too hot to touch for present American leadership. They have ruthlessly turned public attention away. I expect that someday we all will know, probably when certain individuals jump off or are pushed from the US Oil / CIA gravy train, and survive to tell the tale.
