Fatima - Miracle or Close Encounter?

Following the Pope's recent revelations about information given to the children at Fatima helping to save him from assassination, I thought it might make a good topic for discussion.

I'm not sure if everybody here is aware of all the facts behind the world famous 'Miracle at Fatima' but, if you're not, it's well worth checking it out. Which ever way you look at it, this is one of the strangest incidente ever to take place in the 20th Century. Many people suggest that it would have had a far greater impact worldwide if it had not taken place during the First World War.

Interestingly, there is no doubt that what 70,000 people said they witnessed at Fatima in Potugal during 1917 does bear striking similarities with modern UFO sightings. For example, extremely odd clouds which hovered, buzzing sounds, flashes in the sky, not to mention the blast of heat which allegedly dried the clothes of the vast crowd.

I would be interested to hear what the religious/non religious and pro UFO/UFO sceptics on the board think about this incident.

Was it a geniune visitation by the Virgin Mary? Was it decidedly alien in origin or was it simply a mass hallucination?

Anybody who wants to check up on the basic facts behind the incident can check out this web site below.
http://www.angelfire.com/id/fatimaonline/Apparition1.html



[This message has been edited by Spadge (edited June 09, 2000).]

 

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Miracle.

First, their was three specific prohphecies that all came to pass.

Second, these were children. Not some wacked-out religious freak like me, but children. What would be their motivation to lie? They were threatened to stop lying or daydreamaing about this lady, yet they persisted.

As far as a "heat blast", well, I'm not a scientist, nor do I play one on TV, but I think that something of that magnitude would kill the people as well as dry their clothes, given the amount of heat needed, in the given time frame.

Marian visitations are very intresting.

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"Know Jesus, know peace; no Jesus, no peace."
-Patrick Ashley

 

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Pashley

Hmmm...so you're coming down on the geniune miracle side.

The trouble is how could we possibly know the difference beween a genuine religious experience or dem pesky aliens pretending to be God? All throughout history they could have been shaping religion for their own purpose. This is assuming aliens exist of course.......

Incidently, I find it hard not to find the 'heat blast' a bit unbelievable myself.


[This message has been edited by Spadge (edited June 15, 2000).]

 

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Hello Spadge,

That is a very good point you have there Spadge, if you think it through a little further then you should realise something else : there is no obvious difference between an invisible god doing his stuff and invisible aliens doing theirs. This means that the alien subculture that has been florishing since the Roswell case is beginning to show more and more signs of a religion.
Looking at it from an antropological point of view, I'd say the alien subculture is a newly emerging religian with its very own believes, dogma's and rites.
Very interesting indeed to see how something like this grows...

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I err, therefore I exist !

 

Hi Plato

I certainly would not disagree with you here. Unfortunately, both 'faiths' have their fanatics and I have to admit that I'm not very keen on extremists whatever they're involved in.

Getting back to the original theme of the thread, I am keen to know what your view of the Fatima event is given your views on religion and aliens? What do you personally think is the most logical explanation? After all we simply can't ignore an event of this magnitude and pretend it never happened. Something obviously happened at Fatima, but what?



[This message has been edited by Spadge (edited June 15, 2000).]

 

I'm afraid you won't like my explanation. It revolves around the fascinating and sometimes simply unbelievable complexity of the human mind.
There are different aspects of course, first of all you have the cultural aspect of a long tradition of miracles and apperishions. This was needed to provide the general acceptence by the surroundings of the subject that experienced the 'miracle' but also as a trigger for the subject itself to interpret what really happened.
Second you have all kinds of different stimuli that can get very strange effects, lets call them halocinations in the broadest sense.
Third you have the individuals personality and psychology since that ultimatly molds facts into ideas.

These three aspects were needed in order to get the miracle, something definitly happened there namely the convergence of these three aspects. What went on afterward is an ever more complex reinterpretation of the so called facts in a continuously broadening set of ideas. Resulting in some kind of mass psychoses.

Mind you I'm not just talking about the Fatima miracle but in a very general sense about para-physical experiences.
However, I'm not saying "this is all bullshit and there is no such thing", I'm saying that we don't understand the human mind enough to provide sufficient answers. I'm saying we don't understand the universe enough to know all its secrets. But I am saying the universe is much, much trickier then we suspect...

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I err, therefore I exist !

 

Describing it in a very simplistic way, what I think you're saying is that these things are all in the mind right? As I said, that's probably far too simplistic a way to describe your theory but I think I get the gist of it.

I'm sure you are aware that two of the children were told that they would die soon, which in fact they did. Was this a coincidence?

It is interesting that you've tended to go for the more down to earth answer, although it's certainly not a conventional one. Now to me, each of these two things sound believable. To be honest, even if I was pushed, I really would not like to say what I think happened at Fatima, although the alien idea does appear reasonable to me.

 

Good topic Spadge. As for my two cents, I would have to say that I have no idea. I do believe in miracles, and in prophecy, and in revelation from Christ. But I also am very aware first hand that not everything we'd like to believe is from God, is really from God. See, I don't believe that aliens are aliens as we attempt to define them in the first place. I think that the aliens that we are all too familiar with are demonic. There are 2 forces at work on this earth. One is Satan, the other is Jesus Christ. There is a spirit of deceipt and a spirit of truth. It seems to me, from what I've seen, read about, and experienced myself, that the spirit of deceipt is just that. Crafty, crafty, crafty. I've referred to the alien phenomenon before as the "Antichrist laser light show" and I like that description, cause it's kinda funny, but not too far from the truth. I also know personally that the Holy Spirit of truth doesn't usually involve some fantastic laser light show. God speaks to people's hearts, and is much more subtle in presentation. At least as of recent times it seems.

What it always, always, always, boils down to is the message that is conveyed. If the message matches the word, then it is from God. If the message doesn't match the word, then it is from Satan. It's really that simple. Now, Satan is one sly mother-f&$ker ok? He'll bend and stretch the message, and take bits and pieces of it, and leave other parts out when it's convenient, just to try to fool you. He'll get really close to the truth, and present some truth, but not the whole truth. Hey, they don't call him the master of deceipt for nothing. If we humans could tell when we were being deceived, then we wouldn't be being deceived, now would we? The test of the spirits is as follows....if the spirit confesses that Jesus is the Son of God come in the flesh, then the spirit is of God. If the spirit confesses that Jesus is not the Son of God come in the flesh, then the spirit is of deceipt. Pretty simple huh? Hey, but try not to get blinded by the laser light show....it's really beautiful. Satan is beautiful in an asthetic kind of way, but as we all know, what is beautiful on the outside, can be very deadly on the inside.

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.



[This message has been edited by Lori (edited June 15, 2000).]

 

You see,

Lori illustrates very much my point that the alien subculture is becoming a religion. It is possible to exchange all mysteries by aliens doing their thing but as Lori states. One might as well assume that the aliens are nothing but manifestations of the devil. Thus encorporating the alien story in the existing paradigm of christian religion.

I think this phenomenon must also have been at work when for example christianity tore itself lose of Judeism and further more of the state religion of the Roman Empire. There is some kind of cross fertilisation at work that actually changes and molds both religions. Sometimes one of the two simply gets devored by the other one. However I don't think this will be the case with the alien subculture. Although Lori's idea is a pretty good attempt to recuperate the lost sheep it rests on a side of christianity that has been a bit neglegted the last couple of centuries. The 'workings of the devil' as a concept is on its way back. It used to be very big, especially during the religious wars of the sixteenth and seventeenth century when the unity of christianity was at stake. However ever since the eighteenth century it become more and more associated with superstition. This doesn't mean that 'the devil' has lost his place as ultimate evil but it does mean that one came to accept that man himself was pretty much capable of doing evil without any help of a supernatural being.

An other way to encorporate the aliens into christian religion would be to see them as messengers from god, angels sort of speak. This would be the other side of the spectrum but just as valid. However it seems the angels have suffered from the same illness as the evildoer himself since they also aren't as prominent in mainstream christian religion as they used to be.

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I err, therefore I exist !

 

Plato, Lori

Very interesting postings from two totally different viewpoints. I just hope that Lori's concept isn't the right one.

Personally, although I've certainly considered this idea, I wouldn't say I agree with it. However, none of us really know the answers to this and this is just one idea about the whole subject that does give me a sense of unease.

Ufology has been an interest of mine since I was six years old and, although I've always found it hugely facinating, I'd be very happy if this phenomena simply didn't exist.

I don't know if either of you have read Operation Trojan Horse by John Keel (frequently quoted as one of the best books on the subject ever written) but some of the things it contained scared the hell outta me. Lori, you in particular would probably find it interesting. That's assuming you haven't already read it of course.

I'd prefer my aliens/devils to only exist in the movies thanks.



[This message has been edited by Spadge (edited June 16, 2000).]

 

Spadge,

as a cultural phenomenon, aliens certainly exist. Just take a glance at the Aliens & Extraterrestrials.
It is however up to us how much we let them become real for ourselves. For some people aliens are as real as you and me, they have totally immersed themselves in this culture. This is the reason why they can see and talk with them and we can't.

You have probably heard of imaginary sickness, this shows how much power the mind has over the body. The same thing can be said for cultures and perceived reality of people who adhere these cultures. A culture can bend reality in such a way that its claims become as real as you getting stinged by a musquito.
The trick is to get away from the musquito

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I err, therefore I exist !

 

Plato

Ah! I find that there is a slight problem with this explanation. As I explained before, I have been into this stuff since I was six. How is it then that I'm still not sure that aliens actually exist? Also, does this mean you are saying that alien abductions only happen to people that have immersed themselves into the culture?

I'm sure that your aware that this is not the case at all.


[This message has been edited by Spadge (edited June 16, 2000).]

 

First of all, there are several degrees of being an adept of a certain culture.

You see, it doesn't matter that they are, it is just part of the culture that it makes you think they are not !

You see it is far more elusive then a simple dillusion. It isn't just an illusion or imagination of a single or a few human beings. It is something that resides in the human collective mind. There it can create stories and effects who for example turn believers into non believers, make seas part, make dead walk, abduct entire populations of towns, you name it.

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I err, therefore I exist !

 

You quite rightly point out that as a cultural phenomenon, aliens certainly exist. The thing I find interesting is where all this came from in the first place?

Is the phenomena that has caused many people since the 1940s to the present day to believe in the existence of ETs the very same one that centuries ago helped in the evolvement of organised religion? Is that what we are saying here?

This would mean that the UFO issue is the most profoundly important question that faces mankind today.

I can certainly see how due to a 'collective mind' events can be forced into fitting into a predetermined religious or ET framework.
However, If your mind theory is true, how did this all start in the first place assuming there was no 'collective consiouness' to hang strange events on. What was the initial metaphorical pebble that was thrown into the pond that caused ripples that are still gathering momentum thousands of years later.

Surely we are talking cause and effect here in that order. Something that causes genuine events to happen must be behind this whole thing to trigger such a wave of belief in the first place.

Another point! Taking your 'collective mind' theory a step further, would you ascribe all paranormal events to be somehow linked with this. For example, how do sightings of Bigfoot fit this idea. Are you saying that people only see large hairy men in the woods because thousands of others have seen them?

If I'm getting out of my depth here, it's because I am. lol......

[This message has been edited by Spadge (edited June 16, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Spadge (edited June 16, 2000).]

 

Very interesting questions you are asking there Spadge !
Actually they very much resemble questions about evolution or creation. Or the chicken and the egg problem.
You see what goes for the biological aspect of our being also goes for the cultural aspect of what makes us humans. What mostly seems to be the case is that nor the chicken, nor the egg was first but something totally diffrent.

You could call it like that but you could also say that the UFO issue is simply the latest variant of a process that has been going on since we first uttered coherent thoughts. I'm talking hundreds of thousands of years ago !

We have a theory describing biological evolution, although there is still much controversy about the precise mechanisms of this evolution. What we need now is something analogical but about cultural evolution. There are some steps in that direction via archeology and antropology but this science is still very young. I think a lot of help could come from the area of psychology.

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I err, therefore I exist !

 

Ok, Plato... I've only been reading this thread and have held back as much as I can stand...

Ok, to be fair..yes, the above can be true...HOWEVER, it is not true in ALL cases, Plato. Have you ever read the book called Communion??? Read it..then come back and say all alien abduction takes place in the mind. I for one was taught that there is ALWAYS a logical explanation for everything. I was never taught to open my arms up to such things as aliens or even ghosts. Point blank...was told they didn't exist. Now there have been somethings that I have experienced that I cannot DENY. I'd like to give a short example..something I'd like you to ponder for a bit. I was at a dinner party one night. Now, yes, it was known that the couple giving the party had a lot of activity going on in their home. There was a big group of us that didn't really think much about it..and kind of wrote it off...even though this couple was not the type to really buy into such things. During this party the younger crowd, which I was a part of, was sitting in the dining area. We were all talking about different things..as the lady happened to walk into the room..some of the people I had heard say "shhhhh shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!" Everyone got quiet. I had my back toward the phone... I heard a man's voice speaking...I thought to myself...ohhhhh Lloyd must be on the phone and that is why some of the people said "shhhhhhh". I turned around...NO ONE was on the phone..nor was there a man standing back there. Only the lady that lived there. She was similing as she KNEW what was going on. Afterwards we all started talking about what happened... EVERYONE heard a MAN'S voice. Now, how could we ALL have imagined the very same thing??????????????? I mean everyone there started saying at the SAME time, "did you hear that guys voice?????". Do you see what I'm trying to say? To sit there and say that all this stuff is in the mind it's just not so.
Oh, and just and FYI...the only time before this event where a voice was heard...it happened to be a woman's voice..but, it had a body with it that time.

 

Flash,

I think you underestimate the power of the mind and certainly the power of a culture.

This book about abductions and your experience with ghosts is not something that can be easily explained. Therefor you can't just say it is all in the mind.
What actually takes place is a fairly complex interaction between something that did happen, your memory of it and the thoughts and talks you had with people about it. Al together make the experience that what you described.
You see reality remembered isn't the same as reality as it actually was. Each moment you think about a specific remembrence, it becomes ever so slightly different without you noticing it.
It doesn't really matter actually because every time you remember the situation for your it retains its original reality because you were there, right ? Besides the illogical explanations are mostly much more pleasant and exiting then the logical ones, so if you can choose take the fascinating one.

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I err, therefore I exist !

 

Plato!!!!!?????? Give me a break, will ya????? Come on! I'm telling you that I heard they guys voice..turned my back and there was NOT a man that was there. At the SAME time...when the voice STOPPED everyone responded the same way saying, "did you hear that guys voice" I have not added to this story nor have I taken anything away.
Question: How is it that when the voice stopped that exactly at that time..everyone knew it stopped????????
Question: How is it everyone confirmed it was a mans voice that was heard..at the SAME time???????

 

Flash,

come on. You didn't seriously believe that I was going to make you doubt one second about your experience ?
You obviously have been thinking about these things for several years so what could a little post like mine do ?
I am not going to change your mind, that is all up to you if you want that. If you don't that is fine by me, I have no problem with this. I hope you also have no problem with the fact that I have some trouble with your interpretation of what you saw.

Peace !

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I err, therefore I exist !

 

Plato,

Paradigm, huh? LOL! Well, can't argue with that. But my paradigm is based upon some pretty solid evidence. No, don't ask me to share, it's not mine to share. You just need something really, really weird to happen to you. I'd like to see how fast you changed your tune.

Operation Trojan Horse? Sounds good. I'm on it dude, thanks.

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.