Translation & Muslims

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by flameofanor5, Dec 13, 2007.

  1. Revolvr Registered Senior Member

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    By "deal breaker" are you saying that belief in the return of the Mahdi is outside the bounds of valid Islam?
     
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  3. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    If its not substantiated by the Quran, I do not waste my time researching it.
     
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  5. Revolvr Registered Senior Member

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    Certainly some diversity is fine. But is it too extreme? bin Laden uses the Qur'an to justify his actions. I assume most Muslims disagree with his diversity?

    Is the extreme diversity you talk about primarily due to a lack of any central authority? Or is there another cause?
     
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  7. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Ok first of all, all Muslims who are not Wahabis consider the Wahabis as a fringe group, because they break the first rule in Islam- ie they denounce Muslims who do not follow their way. So Wahabis in general are persona non grata in the Muslim world.

    The story of bin Laden is an interesting one. He was influenced by Ibn Tamiya, a thinker who broke the mould of Islam from the traditional thought.

    So the extremists you see are NOT the religious Muslims as Muslims perceive religion: they are quite paradoxically, the rebels and reformers.

    If you're interested in this topic, you can read the entire article here:

    http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/ali_eteraz/2007/09/the_roots_of_islamic_reform.html

    Unfortunately, their philosophy appeals to those young men and women, who are tired of living under despotic governments and also tired of western intervention.
     
  8. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    It isn't really a question of Wahhabis or Salafis or, really, even "Qutbis". It's more about the continuation of the old laws about persecuting and oppressing religious minorities. It would be impossible to say that this is a new phenomenon; one might argue that there's been a revival, but how would it be differentiated from any other variation in general tolerance or intolerance in those societies?
     
  9. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Or, to continue in light of Sam's links, the problem isn't so much that Taymiya no longer thinks that he must refer to the relevant islamic authority for the permission to take a life, but rather what the relevant islamic authority thinks one ought to take a life for.

    As always, the problem is deeper than the solution.
     
  10. Revolvr Registered Senior Member

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    278
    So I take it you are a "traditionalist" as Ali Eteraz describes in his articles? Do you generally agree with his comments on Islamic reform? Would it be valuable for me to read all 7 of his articles?
     
  11. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Was that for me or Sam?

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  12. Revolvr Registered Senior Member

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    SAM. Unless you are Muslim.
     
  13. Kadark Banned Banned

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    Islam is the best choice for everyone in the world if they want it to be. If you refuse to relinquish uneducated preconceived notions on what the religion is, then it will never work out.

    Nope. Believe it or not, telling me that I agree with something doesn't really mean that I do.
     
  14. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Why? No needs to write down a song - just learn to sing it by hearing it.

    Doesn't it seem more plausible that the need for a canon was due to people changing parts here and there?

    I beleive I have read that Uthman had all the Qur'an collected and destroyed when he had his particular version canonized?

    I'm surprised you didn't consider that? One would think it was the most obvious choice?

    It's not an irrevelent question at all SAM. There have been people put to death for leaving Islam and taking up a new faith. There have been people put to death for leaving Islam and not taking up any faith.

    To the people who had their heads cut off I'm sure it's a question that was very relevant to them.

    Also, I said Buddhism in this last question - not atheism. Lastly, I didn't say anything guaranteed happiness, hell a lobotomy may "guarantee" happiness.


    I said which is better: A Muslim who is unhappy or an ex-Muslim that converted to Buddhism and is now very happy?

    It's a pretty simple and straightforward question,
    Michael
     
  15. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Islam just needs to be cleaned up and people in the secular West and secular far East simply need to be properly educated. You know, it used to be Xians had little regard for Jewish due to their forefathers having put Jesus to death. THEN it became thought of that the Jews didn't have a choice and this was all part of Gods plan. Problem solved.

    Basically we get someone similar to SAM, perhaps someone who supports homosexual female Imams (I think the Chinese are in favor of this) and promote them and many of their liberal ideas. Re-interpret the Qur'an to mean there should be a secular government and a pluralistic society.

    Done, problem solved.

    Michael
     
  16. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Hey something interesting

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    Do you have a reference?

    There are still some gnostics in Iraq (or were) they worship John as the-man-in-the-middle for their religion.
     
  17. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Well Kadark, that's interesting, so you learned in Islam that Islam is the best beleif if you truly beleive it.
    Deep.
    :bugeye:

    I'm not asking that question Kadark, you keep reading my question and then answering your own question. THIS is the exact reason why I usually just ask for a yes or no and then explain.

    Here to be as clear as possible:
    Which is better:
    (a) A Muslim who is unhappy or
    (b) an ex-Muslim that converted to Buddhism and is now very happy?

    A or B?


    Anyone ever meet one of those Americans that comes to live in a foreign country and constantly tells you how mush "better America is". And you know, in their head they really think this is the case.

    Scientology is the best choice for everyone in the world if they want it to be. If you refuse to relinquish uneducated preconceived notions on what the religion is, then it will never work out.

    Can you see how the above statement in absolutley no way answered the above question?


    Michael
     
  18. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Try to imagine if the following was a revelation from God to a band of neo-monotheists entering Africa 2000 years ago:

    In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

    Say, "O you stupid Niggers who worship tree, rocks, wind and water.
    "I do not worship what you worship.
    "Nor do you worship what I worship.
    "Nor will I ever worship what you worship.
    "Nor will you ever worship what I worship.
    "To you is your religion, and to me is my religion."


    "Which is a better situation to be in?" one African asked. Me who is happy to worship and live with nature or you who has come here to call me a Nigger?
    "Look Nigger" came the reply, aren't you proud to be a Nigger? Our belief is the best choice for everyone in the world."

    Get it?


    OK, you want to know what my beleif is.
    All people should have equal respect for all other peoples beliefs and ideas and cultures - with this one qualifier. The farther one deviates from the spirit of this statement the less "value" they are accorded. That is, it's fine to say: To each there own. But this should be said within the context of: you know, you may actually be right or I may be right or both or maybe we're both wrong. You see this is called respect. What's disrespectful is to say: Hey Nigger, you can beleive whatever the f*ck you want to beleive, but as far as I'm concerned you're wrong if it ain't' what I'm believing.

    As I've said We're all atheists for most Gods. I'm atheist for you one God as well. But you know, you may be right and I might be wrong, Or maybe I'm right and you're wrong OR maybe we're both wrong and the Shinto were right.


    Michael
     
  19. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I would have to say I do not agree with ALL his ideas, but I do think his idea about recruiting the traditionalists is a very interesting one.

    Considering that most Muslims live in societies identified more by culture than religion (Chinese, Indonesian, Pakistani, Indian, etc), the appeal for a Western system of society is very limited. On the other hand, the traditionalist approach, which was followed by the Ottomans (e.g. the most severe sentence they passed against adultery/homosexuality was a fine, because the Quran demands four witnesses and traditionalists will not be satisfied with less; four witnesses for a sexual act make it impossible to be proved in practice) is likely to appeal across the board, since it will be derived from the Quran. It worked excellently for the Ottomans and is a good basis to start with.

    As such the appeal to traditionalists eases the restrictions on society and their cooperation makes it easier to access a larger section of population (since tradition appeals to Muslims, as being closer to the values espoused in the Quran).

    I'm not certain a central authority is a good idea, there are too may Muslims for it to be practical or even plausible, I don't believe any central authority could represent all Muslims and it would just lead to a lot of time wasted over unneccessary deliberation. But having a Council (of several representative associations) might not be a bad idea, with voting rights and representation of all sects.

    Its up to you, of course; he is one of the most well read of the liberal Muslims and has explained some of his notions extremely well.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2007
  20. Kadark Banned Banned

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    Michael, I'm not even going to bother with you. I've posted loads of text, answering your same question at least a dozen times. If my answer doesn't satisfy you, then I guess that's too bad.

    Seriously now, this is getting really boring and repetitive. If you're not going to say anything new, then I urge you to say nothing at all.
     
  21. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I just ignore him when he gets tedious, he has a tendency to get pedantically boring when he does not get an answer he likes.
     
  22. Kadark Banned Banned

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    Good advice. I think what I admire most about Michael is his determination. I mean, look at the length of those posts!
     
  23. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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