Star Wars vs Star Trek

Discussion in 'SciFi & Fantasy' started by Pollux V, May 9, 2002.

?

Which universe would win?

  1. Star Trek

    227 vote(s)
    35.5%
  2. Star Wars

    268 vote(s)
    41.9%
  3. Spaceballs

    47 vote(s)
    7.3%
  4. Farscape

    12 vote(s)
    1.9%
  5. Dune

    50 vote(s)
    7.8%
  6. Stargate

    36 vote(s)
    5.6%
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  1. Saquist Banned Banned

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    I'm unfamilar with the "dark star" moniker.
    He's had good reason. The contradictions are expansive in the Lucas canon and I've seen statements on the wiki which supports his premise that EU isn't canon based on George Lucas himself.
     
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  3. Cody Registered Member

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    Fine, I'll quote you, ya ninny.

    I'm not saying fanon is canon, (Heh heh, that rhymed.) but I'm saying the EU (Writing, games, comics, etc.) is. He has three worlds for a reason.

    One, for movie directors like him.

    Two, for writers.

    Three, the fan's stories and the only non-canon one.

    He also says, in plain English, that 'but they don't always mesh'. Here, he is basically saying that the EU isn't canon ONLY when it contradicts the movies.

    I was saying that he was TALKING ABOUT HOW HIS MOVIES WERE THE SUPREME CANON!

    For the last time, I AM NOT SAYING ALL THREE ARE CANON! I'm saying that there are three domains of Star Wars:

    The G-canon, for Lucas only, or movies.

    The C-canon, or the EU. It is for writers. Only Non-canon when it CONTRADICTS THE MOVIES!

    The fanon. Not canon at all.

    Be warned, this is long: (This is not my writing.)

    To make a long story short, Robert Scott Anderson (henceforth dubbed "RSA") is an uneducated help-desk operator who took a hobby and turned it into an obsession. He also suffers from paranoid delusions of persecution, and he basically see himself as Captain Ahab and me as Moby Dick. By way of explanation, go to his website at www.st-v-sw.net. Just to give you an idea of the sort of paranoid obsession I'm talking about, his website's Introduction page mentions me by name as part of the site's entire reason for existence, and out of 38 topical articles linked on his main site index as of June 27 2004, nearly a third of them mention me by name! As a further example of his obsession, out of 36 E-mails he selected for publication on his Feedback page, no less than 14 of the messages or his responses to them (that's more than a third) mention me or my site by name, usually in derogatory fashion. Naturally, like most deranged and obsessed personality types, he believes the obsession runs the other way, ie- that I am obsessed with him. Naturally, it should come as no surprise that he has no girlfriend and no prospects.

    If that's not enough for you, he even makes the absurd claim that Wayne Poe and I tried to have him killed! As he puts it, "Wayne Poe's obsession with me runs so deep that he openly fantasizes about killing me, and Wayne and Mike Wong (in his Hate Mail section) still try to publicize an old site intended to help with that goal." Intent to have someone killed is a pretty serious charge; in fact, it's so serious that if it had a shred of validity and he wasn't so obviously delusional, Wayne and I would have been charged for it by the police. So why hasn't this happened? Why didn't the police visit? Or even make a phone call? I suspect you can guess the answer to that one.

    RSA's behaviour is often characterized by a Trekkie persecution complex. It goes without saying that he accuses me of automatically abusing ST fans on my forums (even though one of my moderators is one of the former so-called "Spacebattles.com Babies" who once donated an article to RSA's website and was promptly accused of being a "rabid Warsie" when he tried to sign up on RSA's short-lived forum). But he even makes similar accusations about the SpaceBattles.Com forums, saying that there is "a Warsie majority here with a moderator to back them, and you will be banned if you upset them by posting evidence against their positions.". As with my forums, RSA's accusations are best refuted by asking you to sign up and/or observe them for yourself, rather than letting someone help you judge it sight unseen. And would it surprise you to know that he even accuses the unmoderated (read: free for all) alt.starwars.vs.startrek newsgroups of being a "Rabid Warsie support group", or that after all of this, one of his favourite accusations against others is, ironically enough, "poisoning the well"?

    Of course, it's important to know what kind of arguments he has generated in the past, so without further ado, let us look at:

    Some of the uneducated troll RSA's more bizarre claims:

    "Of course, given that we have nothing to compare it to, it may simply represent the natural order of the dominant humanoids of the SW galaxy." This is RSA arguing that Vader's obviously mangled and subsequently repaired spine is naturally that way.

    Despite the obvious concrete appearance of Docking Bay 94 in ANH, he believes that it was a "dirt pit". Or as he puts it, "Wow, Han's blaster truly is extraordinary . . . it disrupted the structural integrity of packed dirt within a big hole." He bases this on a "dirt pit" quote from the novel even though the movies override the novels in the event of a conflict and the Tatooine docking bays are obviously not mere "dirt pits". Of course, in other pages, he makes a point of reminding the reader that the novels cannot contradict the movies and in fact has numerous pages and very long dissertations on the precise nature of canon hierarchies; I guess he just suffered temporary amnesia when Docking Bay 94 came up.

    "Canonically, the Millennium Falcon's weapons range is no more than about 200 meters." Yes, he really says that, even though we can see hand weapons being used at far greater range (many kilometres) in AOTC and TESB. He bases his claim on the assumption that the focal length of a 35mm film camera is fixed at 35mm, regardless of zoom (please consult a photographer if you don't understand how absurd this is), so he figures he can calculate the distance to any object is by simply looking at how much of the screen it takes up.

    Regarding the Death Star superlaser striking Alderaan: "no atmospheric effects are observed". Yes, that's right. He believes there was no visible effect on the atmosphere of Alderaan when the superlaser hit it: an astonishingly strange claim upon which he bases many other arguments, such as his conclusion that the Death Star superlaser was below "23.5 gigatons" in yield (that's roughly 0.02% of the yield of the real-life "dino-killer" asteroid 65 million years ago). This is but one of the many bizarre components of his various Death Star claims, among such oddities as his "bands of brightness" moving over the surface of Alderaan which nobody but him can see or his strange "fire rings therefore mysterious chain reaction" argument.

    He believes that the asteroid in the Star Trek Voyager episode "Rise" can be assumed to be totally vaporized for the purpose of calculations even though we can see solid fragments flying away from the blast and one of the crewman even estimates how big they should be. At the same time, he believes that the asteroid in TESB can not be assumed to be totally vaporized even though the only visual remotely resembling a fragment is a few reddish glowing clouds which disappear in fractions of a second.

    Regarding Leia in the shield generator control room on Endor in ROTJ (from his website): "Leia comments that the "fleet will be here at any moment". That, of course, is absurd . . . the fleet doesn't arrive until pre-dawn on another day." Yes, that's right: he figures that when Han, Leia and Co. were captured, a whole day passed before they were brought outside to the clearing! If that isn't enough to make you shake your head, he also claims that after they broke into the complex in the first place, they took half a day to reach the control room! He bases his argument on exhaustive analysis of the direction of shadows (and some assumptions about the orientation of the complex, the planet's direction of rotation, etc). Naturally, he uses these "facts" to conclude that it took two days(!) for the Rebel fleet to jump from Sullust to Endor, so hyperdrive is slow.

    His "crown jewel" argument is his belief that the Death Star must have used some kind of mysterious chain-reaction to destroy Alderaan, because apparently the superlaser creates some kind of mysterious "superlaser effect" which converts matter to energy in a self-perpetuating chain-reaction. At the same time, he believes that the Empire does not possess a means of annihilating matter into energy, which is why they are limited to nuclear fusion for power generation ... thus proving that they must have this energy-generating "superlaser effect". See if you can spot the obvious self-contradiction in this argument.

    Darkstar's Arguments

    http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/RSA/Canon.html For some bizarre reason, RSA has made his "Canon Policy" the centrepiece of his entire debate strategy. Find out what that's all about.

    http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/RSA/MoO/index.html This is a page by page critique of RSA's website as of Year-end 2002. Strongly recommended, particularly since it discusses many of RSA's specific sci-fi arguments, as opposed to his endless ramblings over the oh-so-important "Canon Policy". Note: I added some editor's notes to Mr. Blackburn's articles.

    Here is a last example: http://www.daltonator.net/fuq/trolls/g2k.html
     
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  5. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

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    Well he has had many and under each has shown complete disregard for scientific fact.


    Wiki is not the authority here. George is and the man has said many times that he has what he calls several levels of canon as it were. The movies are absolute and where the EU does not directly dispute movies then the EU is canon. Meaning if the movie contradicts anything in EU than for that fact the movie take precedent. It is the the excepted canon policy.


    Besides look at the very first post here. This conversation includes EU specifically.
     
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  7. Saquist Banned Banned

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    From the Wiki and also stated on "G2k's Tech assessment"

    In July 2001, Lucas gave his opinion on the matter of what is canon in Star Wars during an interview with Cinescape magazine:

    "There are two worlds here," explained Lucas. "There’s my world, which is the movies, and there’s this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe – the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. They don’t intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, [but] they do intrude in between the movies. I don’t get too involved in the parallel universe."

    I'm sure you've seen that before, Cody.

    Further, in an August 2005 interview in Starlog magazine:

    STARLOG: "The Star Wars Universe is so large and diverse. Do you ever find yourself confused by the subsidiary material that's in the novels, comics, and other offshoots?"
    LUCAS: "I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."

    That's very clear what the EU is to George Lucas. It means he doesn't rely on it to tell his stories and that's why we see the contradictions and he recognizes those contradictions.


    CHEE: "GL is certainly not bound by the EU, though he's certainly open to using things created in it (Aayla Secura and the Coruscant name, for example). On the other hand, the quote you provide makes it sound like the EU is separate from George's vision of the Star Wars universe. It is not. The EU must follow certain tenets set by George through the films and other guidelines that he provides outside of the films."

    It certainly seems like Chee and George Lucas have different ideas about what is his vision. Lucas says he's no concerned...it's a parrallel universe and Chee says it's not seperate at all. Does Chee know what a parallel universe is?

    Parallel is a term we use to describe two paths which never cross, distinctly seperate. I'll have to go with the creator on this and not the Novel Overseer.
     
  8. Saquist Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,256
    According to the Holocron G2k is right to contest the authors canon vs what George Lucas himself dictates.


    I've seen Wong's statements on Trek fans, Trek movies and G2k.
    His criticism on Star Wars' films fans and supporters are quite different. It can only be described as highly biased.

    Look at how he describes Star Trek Nemesis in it's summary. Most of it I agree with but it's so inflamatory it's barely readable let alone moral. In contrast Attack of the Clones and Phantom Menace are horrid in plot development and he defends it as though sacrosanct.

    I've decided to use my own mind. in the debate but the information others provide.
     
  9. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    Do try not to lie. That isn't what he just said, and he just said they belong to different worlds or universes. So, at most, you could claim that they are all Star Wars, but each one is from a different universe, or dimension. In any case, they would not apply to the movie Star Wars. This is not hard to understand.

    In fact, I have already provided proof where fans of EU are accepting what I have just said. To claim that I am twisting his words is one thing, but when fans of the EU are agreeing with me, it's another. Unless of course, you wish to accuse them of either being biased, or stupid.

    Your credibility doesn't stretch nearly that far.



    You claimed that there was shielding upon the generator when there was none stated to be there in the movie, nor did we see some sort of energy field surronding it, or try to block it. Thus, proof of burden is upon you that there was one.


    Sorry, but there is no shielding around the generator. And the only warpcores in ST history to be shielded is the one on the USS Enterprise E (which we saw), and if I recall correctly, one of the Defiant's (mostly because it kept the core from killing everyone in the room).

    All the other warpcores were not shielded.

    First off, you need to prove that his calculations are false in order for it to stand in debate when the math is right on the link. You did nothing of the sort.

    And nuclear weapons seem to explode upon impact, because they are releasing unbelievable energy...see? I can say too! They appear to be exploding, BECAUSE THEY ARE EXPLODING:

    Actually, Wong's calculator claims that it would have been vaporized, which is, I quote:

    Put in 20 meters yourself and see what you get:
    http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Science/Asteroids.html




    Got some pics to prove that?


    No you don't. Whenever we get in an argument, you put up a fight, I debunk you, and then you either ignore my posts until everyone else points it out and leave, or you just leave.

    Never once have you ever argued against my posts when they have defeated your claims. You just try to act as if it wasn't there.


    :bugeye:

    So let me guess, the villian of Whom God's Destroy (who was an insane man and was locked up just before the Enterprise got there) not only outfitted an entire colony with planetary shields, that by your claim that no other man in the UFP could do it, and then he somehow, by magic, put this shield over another penial colony lightyears away in Dagger of the Mind?:bugeye:

    Yes, I'm sure that's the explination.:m:

    No it wasn't. There are two seperat colonies with two seperate planetary shields lightyears away. In Dagger of the Mind, the crew wasn't at all surprised that the colony had a planetary shield, and Kirk even lectured the the transporter officer when he forgot to call the colony and ask them to lower the shield.

    And then in the Lights of Zetar, Memory Alpha is under attack, and Kirk asks them if they had a planetary shield, and he was told that no, it didn't. Why would he expect it to have a shield if such things were beyond even UFP technology?
     
  10. Cody Registered Member

    Messages:
    262
    I think Wong flames a lot because he's used to being flamed and most people that email him are idiots.
     
  11. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,149
    Small problem is we do see them cross, he has used some stuff that is the same.

    Besides George said the EU stuff happens between the movies but not in. Meaning nothing the EU can enter the movies unless George put it there, but the EU covers everything inbetween. Any world has massive backgorund stories. George lets other writers tell those, but doesn't let them dictate anything about the movies.

    How hard is that to understand?

    By the way ICS books are made by DIRECT observation of the movies and interpretation by a widely respected Physicist. That would make them G and C canon.
     
  12. Saquist Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,256
    I don't see flames are logical to the discussion.
     
  13. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    When I try to reply to you, sorting out your quotes and my own can get messy, thus I prefer it this way.



    No he didn't. Otherwise he wouldn't have mentioned the three worlds at all...he would have just said no, he wasn't and then said that sometimes, the two worlds don't mesh...if even that at all. Saying it this way is just confusing.

    And the only one:

    I took this from Saquist's post, and he has a few more. People have claimed that Lucas is being misquoted here...but how is it possible that four sources show him debunking one universe, one of which is the official Star Wars website?:bugeye:

    No, sorry. Lucas did not say that. Otherwise, he would have listed only two worlds, not three. You are trying to twist his words again.

    Funny, all this comes from a biased source. And that one trekkie mod? Yeah, he quite in 07 when it became clear that Wong was an asshole and treated him like shit:

    http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=801&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

    His name is Alyeska.

    This is an extension of SD.com I think.
     
  14. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    That is not an excuse. That's as about as logical as saying that all Christians are stupid because Creationist scientists ignore basic facts, when in fact, the fucking Pope declared that evolution is infact a valid theory, and that the creation story in Genesis was not literal.
     
  15. Saquist Banned Banned

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    3,256
    And yet G2k is the one that keeps his cool in a discussion.
    Social Law says I'm likely to entertain that which is offered in an even tone.
    Conversely Wong behaves much as an angry bee defending his territory. It does not encourage a listening attitude.
     
  16. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    So? Giving cameo appearences to characters from EU is more of a tip of the hat to EU fans, it does not validate EU.

    Sorry, but how can you possibly spin that logic and not feel like an idiot?:bugeye:

    Dear Lord, the guy even compares his EU world with the canon of Star Trek!

    You mean by ignoring basic english, twisting words, and then trying to explain it away like it was a deep meaning waiting to be found, despite the fact that it would confuse most people? Wow, I guess that isn't very hard.

    It doesn't matter if Jesus Himself wrote ICS, they would still be non-canon because Lucas decides what is and what is not canon, not Saxton. Furthermore, those calculations were given on the basis that Base Delta Zero was the destruction of the entire crust...which is from a EU source. And furthermore, that itself was bullshit since the source involving it had three ISDs destroying the surface of the planet, sent down bombers for mop up work, and a man in a deep base shelter managed to somehow survive.

    Not to mention, that if his calcs were true, everytime an ISD flew by a planet, it would kill everything on it.

    Yeah, some real good author you got there.
     
  17. Saquist Banned Banned

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    Once the canon issues are settled simple observation shows a great weapons firepower ability on every level and especially on the ISD to Galaxy level which is hotly debated. Perhaps appropriately G2k never gets involved in the actual phaser power debate in litteral terms of comparison but it seems clear there is no trumping the phaser over the anti fighter Turbo laser. 6-60 times the Turbolaser.

    The real question is just what are those Heavy turbolasers capable of doing. We've never seen them in action and there are really quite few of them. Four on a standard ISD. I wanted to get you estimation on the Heavy Turbo Laser/ Captial ship weapons.
     
  18. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

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    1,099
    Not to mention his site is outright biased against Star Trek fans. He insults them at every turn. Granted, G2k (also known as Dark Star) takes a few shots, but he's more calm and trusting.

    When I first hear about the debate, I thought it was an interesting idea, and thus checked out the link someone gave me. It was to Wong's five minute debate page.

    Afterwards, I went to G2k's site and found it to be much more truthful and balanced, and he didn't sound like a condescending asshole.
     
  19. Cody Registered Member

    Messages:
    262
    No, it is not confusing if you get the idea.

    Just before I start, are you related to DarkStar in any way? He is the only one who has denied the canonocity of the EU besides you.

    In that quote, it is never stated that the EU is not canon. Because it is a 'parallel' universe doesn't mean it isn't canon unless directly stated. Which it isn't.

    No, I am not. I think you are, stating that the EU isn't canon from Lucas, although he has never DIRECTLY stated that it is.

    Funny that you think something is biased from a biased forum; Starfleet Jedi. That is Alyeska's opinion if Wong treated him like shit.

    It is written by another person. Bloody hell, just go there ya ninny.

    Oh, and BH8? If you are so high and mighty, go have a debate against him.
     
  20. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

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    1,099
    Actually, I believe that G2k has posted on the HTLs:http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWvapetown.html

    As for the phaser arrays, the Romulan warbird disruptor canon showed to be around 70,000 TW, according to the Daystrom Institute.
     
  21. Saquist Banned Banned

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    3,256
    It's intresting you say that Hellblade8.
    When I first broached the discussion I ran into the Wong site. At first I was VERY receptive. I understood initialy his idea of "suspension of belief" but as I read on...it was how he was using his terms and then I began to pick up on anti Trek terminology and occasional slurs. It can be summed up in one word..."disturbing"

    After he called Data a moron for a statement on power levels of the Enterprise I decided to pack up and go else where. It wasn't long before I stumbled upon Ex atris and G2k. I found him witty and balanced like you said. He wasn't condescending and nor did he dictate the results in a hard and fast fashion.

    Did I agree with everything he said...No. But much of it I did agree with.
     
  22. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    No, it doesn't. No writer would say or do something to specifically confuse someone when they are talking about their canon and characters. They are very protective of them. How do I know this?

    Because I'm studying to be a writer. When you have people coming along and changing your charactes and stories to fit their own image, it can very often be insulting.



    No, I am not. I met the guy briefly on another forum, but I had no idea who he was at the time. And sorry, other people do not accept that canon either, and as I have posted, the SW.com people accept this in their posts that I linked to you.

    :bugeye:

    Excuse me? Do you KNOW what parallel is?

    He has said it four times, as I and Saquist have posted. How can all 4 quotes of his be wrong, misquoted, or just plain so complicated that most people seem to think he means the opposite of what you say he means?:bugeye:

    Um, Alyeska is the guy who got treated like shit. Something tells me that if someone treated you like shit, that you would bloody know.

    So? Wong has a big following.

    If he wishes to debate me, he can come and debate me here. I have no reason to go to his site and get attacked by wave after wave of his followers, while he sits back and just tries to pick me off after I've exhausted myself in beating them back.

    So rather, if he was really so high and mighty, he should come here and debate me. At least that way he won't be a moderator with an unfair advantage, and I'll have people here who'll back me up in the even that
    I get spammed with Wong followers, so it doesn't appear as if I'm the only person on the planet that thinks this way.
     
  23. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    Oh, don't get me wrong, I was very receptive too, he has that talent of sounding reasonable...at first. As he went on...things became a bit wanky. He declared that a small ship like the Slave I could easily obliterate the Enterprise...something that my brain just screamed no against. I had seen both shows and movies, and I knew that the Slave I just didn't have that kind of firepower. Granted, that mine would have been a nasty surprise for the Enterprise D, but nothing she couldn't handle.

    And then as I read on, he got more and more outlandishly stupid about shit. He said one thing was wrong for the other side to do, and then did it himself. He claimed that his opponents were so far behind them in firepower, it wasn't even funny.

    He was a biased bigot.

    Exactly, G2k whispers where as Wong shouts. Human nature tells us to believe the one who isn't fronting at the mouth...and there's a reason for that. G2k treated it less like it was life and death, was funny, and he didn't have an air of crazy as shit that Wong did.

    That much is certain. I for one, am not too sure on his Rise calculations, as they are somewhat based on a photon coming toward the camera, and his expliantion for it kind of loss me, but I could see where he was coming from. That's why I used the Trekspert calcs, and chose the higher yield of the two presented: because it was fairly close to G2k's and had an alternative method to it. I also treat the Daystrom Institute with a fair amount of respect, although I don't always agree with what they say either.

    All in all, ST prodebaters tend to be more sane, realistic, and don't claim god-like firepower just so their sci-fi could win (although we could if we wanted to).

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