Star Wars vs Star Trek

Discussion in 'SciFi & Fantasy' started by Pollux V, May 9, 2002.

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Which universe would win?

  1. Star Trek

    227 vote(s)
    35.5%
  2. Star Wars

    268 vote(s)
    41.9%
  3. Spaceballs

    47 vote(s)
    7.3%
  4. Farscape

    12 vote(s)
    1.9%
  5. Dune

    50 vote(s)
    7.8%
  6. Stargate

    36 vote(s)
    5.6%
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  1. Flectarn Unregistered User Registered Senior Member

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    More enlightened how?
     
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  3. Enterprise-D I'm back! Warp 8 Mr. Worf! Registered Senior Member

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    OH! Well, automatically adjusting for the attacking ship amounts to the same as adjusting for a ship of your own class...I'm certain that UFP ships can withstand barrages from other UFP ships. Actually, smaller ships can withstand fire from larger ones...eg when Riker's battle-game Miranda withstood Enterprise-D's shots long enough for Wesley's genius plan to work (had they not been interrupted).
     
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  5. Enterprise-D I'm back! Warp 8 Mr. Worf! Registered Senior Member

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    Very very easily. In the new Clone Wars series, we see Grievous' Malevolence being bombarded feverishly by 3...count em 3...ISDs commanded by our good pal Obi Wan. If they got 2 shots to land on that massive ship, I'd count that as lucky. Take a look at the last episode.

    Those ships SUCK at targeting. The Enterprise E would have more than enough time to rip apart a typical ISD before the Warsies could even get a bead on it.

    Further, that energy rating of yours has been refuted countless times on this forum. You just refuse to accept it.



    I honestly don't care about your fallacy comparisons. I've seen many examples of shieldless battleships, including the latest Malevolence which could not even protect its Ion Cannon, which I must say is an impressive weapon...if that slow ass bolt hits.

    Further, we see countless ST battles where the shields are evidenced (a good example would be ST: Nemesis, wherein Enterprise E hull hugging shields were consistently evidenced until the Scimitar's many disruptors finally penetrated). What we DON'T see all the time in ST is the shots between 100% shields and 0% shields. What we also DON'T see in SW (movies/Clone Wars) is the 100% shield state. Not even a 10% shield state! Hell, even the Clone Wars series have not evidenced battleship shields as yet. Force shields in SW appears to be limited to ground troop advancement, small ships and internal protected systems.


    Excuse me? This is an obvious ploy on your part to sow discord.

    1. The Q are amorphous beings. Their human forms are for the Starfleeters' benefit. Nowhere is it stated that the Q are the future state of humans.

    2. A hazy definition of enlightened I must say Scott...you mean, the Q Continuum, would welcome a conquering warlike race, that still is susceptible to a 'dark side', dictatorships and god-awful AIs that can't see or aim?

    3. If by some remote plausibility your confidence statement is accurate...it would be in the best interest of the Q Continuum to protect the Starfleeters from such an invasion...since they DO evolve into the Q Continuum (in your opinion).
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2008
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  7. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

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    6,706
    travel

    Okay here's what makes ST different than pretty much all other faster than light travel.
    They travel through subspace by making a bubble around their ship and than propel themselves through subspace.
    Star wars, Sg-1, SG atlantis, etc, travel through subspace by ripping a tunnel from their starting point to their end point. Than they travel through it. The borg also use a similar technique to achieve warp ten also known as infinitely fast travel.

    The difference between Sg-1 and SW is that Sg-1 shows the tunnel visibly by making a blueish vortex whilst in SW it is not visible.
    Also in star wars the ships cannot make their jump when near an object of significant gravitational mass.

    The problem with all sub space tunnels is that they can be collapsed. Now granted by the time ST figures out how to efficiently do this, it would be by the mid point of the war. But the fact remains that if ST ships can jam subspace tunnels using the deflecter dish it would destroy any ships inside the tunnel. ST has done this several times, jamming a subspace hole, only one of them actually had a ship inside but thats besides the point.

    This is probably the only reason Stargate could hold out against the empire is because they have discovered a device to jam said sub space tunnel.

    I know scott is going to make this up so NO scott, the empire's sub space engines are crappy at best, and just plain slow at worst. So i must say that if ST jams empire's ships form sub space, the empire would never know what hit them.

    And besides the fact, with or without the ability to go into sub space, the empire's sub space engines arent good at all, they go around light speed, we know this because in the dialogues the term, "make the jump to lightspeed", and "theyve gone to hyperspeed." Have been synonymous in the movie.

    Also the borg do have warp 10 capability's , which means that they pretty much go infinitely fast, so i gotta say that the empire is screwed beyond belief. You cant fight a war if you move so slowly you can never fight your opponent on your own terms.

    Because of this the Death Star makes no difference in things. I mean you may blow up a cube that didnt know what it was getting into, but after that, dodging something that is as big as the moon, and moves at a snails pace is not dificult.

    The ability to move your forces many times above your enemies will always win you the war. That's how a tank as awful as the sherman beat a masterpiece like the German Panzer in World war II. It could move very quickly and was very agilie, so when push comes to shove, the sherman out flanked the Panzer. Here's another analogy, the b-26 flying fortresses and the German fighters. The B-26 had 8 machine gun positions, how did they get annihalated? The german fighters outmaneuvered them.


    Shields. One thing trekkies forget, star wars shields do not block physical attacks. That's why the proton torpedo could pierce the shield of the death star, the shield blocks lasers not torpedos. think about it, if the shields do block physical attacks, with the shear power of the death star the shield should have annihalated the fghter when it got into the trench.

    So when push comes to shove, A massive borg cube can out run an ISD.
     
  8. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,938
    The Q would laugh at the empire and hold them on trial as they did the Enterprise crew... and then SLAUGHTER them after they failed the trial miserably.
     
  9. Saquist Banned Banned

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    3,256
    That's highly suspect Antaran...It exploded a good 30 to 40 meters from the tower. In the Second Colision that is possible there was a particle shield protecting the bay. Yet the case for imperial shields on Captial ships would seem to be inconclusive with one example of penetration.
     
  10. Saquist Banned Banned

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    3,256
    And Yes Kittamaru, it is decided one for all...No matter what power source a Star Destroyer may be packing it doesn't come out the weapons ports.


    The spark beats napalm this time....
     
  11. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,938
    Personally, I think a subspace weapon or two would make short work of any flotilla the Empire brings to bear...
     
  12. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,447
    1. i think you may be confused. allthough some sources could clame a huge energy imput, the highest canon proposes far more modest output.
    2. if Q continuum desided to prosecute UFP, i'd hate to imagine what it would do the the Empire.
     
  13. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,447
    good news, i finally found out what is a cocrane (or how eveer you spell that):

    cocrane is a mesure for space-time curvature used to quantify intensity of warp and deflector fields. 1 cocrane is the space-time curvature equivalent to warp1 (allowing a 1c speed), 2 cocranes is the space-time curvature equivalent to 2c and so on.

    now someone please translate this to tricobalt devices yield. it would apear they are gravity based or have some other impact on sub-space.
     
  14. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,447
    one last discovery, it would apear 1 squadron of B-Wings has enough torpedoes (fighter-based) to take down a Victory class SD. i don't know how many ships a rebel squadron has (4,5,6,8,10,12?) but a B-Wing can cary 16 torpedoes? this means a fully operational and shielded VSD is destroyed by 64-192 proton torpedoes. and we've seen the yield of those torpedoes in action (they are even used against other fighters, which results in fighter distructions with visible debries). it would allso apear the have limited fly-time of 0.5-1m.
     
  15. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,447
    i did not say they can't, i just pointed out to 1 of the definitions for a BB, that being ability to stand up to your own firepower (not the only requrement BTW). besides when we take into acount how much time it takes for a D'Deridex to overwealm a GCS shield, i doubt that given a clean shot Riker's ship (i belive it was a Constelation class) shields could hold out more then few seconds.
     
  16. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,447
    i guess we would have to disagree on this one then. IRL i know it's a case of visual effects gone wrong, but since we must justify what we see, i'd say something must have stoped that tie from ramming it's own ISDII.
     
  17. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,706
    Well for starters the vast majority of star wars shielding blocks energy, particle based weapons but not solid objects.

    Also, antaran which side are you on? I mean you list disadvantages of star wars, you list disadvantages of star trek, what side are you on?
     
  18. Enterprise-D I'm back! Warp 8 Mr. Worf! Registered Senior Member

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    1,898
    I'm pretty sure a Galaxy Class vessel could go toe-to-toe with another for hours. It'd be the more ingenious crew that would determine the battle direction.

    (I thought it was a Miranda...worse yet if it were Constellation lol)
     
  19. Saquist Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,256
    Indeed.
    I'm weighing the Falcon's penetration vs this Tie fighter and the two just don't jibe. I'll say that the fighter just exploded or it was a really small Star Destroyer.

    I would say that is about right.
    It makes fighters useful and almost mandatory against the Empire.
    But if we gauage the laser strikes by the A-wings it would sometimes appear that laser's are more powerful.
     
  20. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,447
    i am not really on anyone's side. i just try to explain what we see on screen and especially what we DON'T see.
     
  21. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,447
    well, in this case it would depend on wether it is a show or a movie. the shows often depict the time necessary to bring down a shield (and then raise it up again) close to 30-60s. in the movies it often takes up to 10-15 minutes. i realise this because of plot/time restraints, but overall i've decided to go with the shows.

    but since we must explain this diference then we could depict this as a toe to toe combat in the shows and skirmish like combat in the movies. so if a D-Deridex and a GCS just stand and shoot at eachother (eighter solo or a part of a formation) it might take no more then 1m for their shields to fail. however if the micro jump, manouver, retreat and advance, hold off, separate or use any other non-frontal method, then the battle migh last longer. at least Nemesis confirmes this speculation, when it takes just several shots (in somewhat around a minute or under) to bring E-E out of warp (i asume the shield did get up in time). however later on the battle rages on for quite a while, even after the Norexans are thrown out of the battle.

    oh, and i've never really decided what i like more, Miranda or Constelation class

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  22. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

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    1,447
    similar sources state that several hundereds torpedoes and missiels can even bring down the shield of a SSD, leaving it open for bombardement. but i'd have to doublecheck on that.
     
  23. Enterprise-D I'm back! Warp 8 Mr. Worf! Registered Senior Member

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    1,898
    Minutes??? To cycle a shield?? Even for Warsies' debatable shield technologies that seems unrealistic...why even bother with them when a strafing run might be more successful?

    Actually, Enterprise E dropped out of Warp because it was not at red alert, hence not prepared for the cloaked firepower that the Scimitar ravaged it with - i.e. Enterprise E did not get shields up in time. Had the Scimitar allowed Picard to raise shields before firing the first shot, the battle would probably have been longer, considering how much time it took for the saucer shields to fall.

    I've the DVD though, I'll double check.

    LOL get with the times! Galaxy Class is sexy!

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