Star Wars vs Star Trek

Discussion in 'SciFi & Fantasy' started by Pollux V, May 9, 2002.

?

Which universe would win?

  1. Star Trek

    227 vote(s)
    35.5%
  2. Star Wars

    268 vote(s)
    41.9%
  3. Spaceballs

    47 vote(s)
    7.3%
  4. Farscape

    12 vote(s)
    1.9%
  5. Dune

    50 vote(s)
    7.8%
  6. Stargate

    36 vote(s)
    5.6%
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  1. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    That's nice.


    Evidence?


    Evidence? And in any case, 20 UFP ships can destroy the surface of a planet in less than half an hour (20 min I think), and we've seen that they can take the explosion of a nearby planet and live (although take heavy damage to the shields.
     
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  3. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

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    The turbo lasers can't hit a slow moving medical fregate from 300-500m distance. they only apear usefull for shooting and phasing out cosmic garbage (small asteroids). the shields on ISDs can't stop 30-40m freighters from landing on their hulls. and we can't tell if ion cannons will have any effect on other non-star wars ships. they only apear capable of tempoarely disabling electronic circuits, not optical or bio-neural devices (used by starfleet).
    and what good is a ship, if there is noone to man it?
     
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  5. Darth Reven Registered Member

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    3
    Star wars would kill them all with centerpiont station.Uses gravity to move any mass it targets.It createda entire system by moving planets to a new location.
     
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  7. Darth Reven Registered Member

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    ISDs have advance targeting computers.They have huge amounts of power. 12 ISDs can turn a planet intoaslet alone the full first empire's 4,000,000 escort ships.450,000 star destroyers. + 1 billion fighters to boost the 5 million weapon emplacements
     
  8. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,447

    well either they are not that advanced (just see the movies-suprime canon) or they don't know how to use them.
    all the ISDs are capable (acording to the books it seams) is shooting at natural phenomena. RoTS , ANH, TESB (the best SW movie) and RoTJ show them as extrimely inacurate and argubly under powered. it takes an ISD hundreds of shots to hit and disable Freighter. they don't even scratch the rag-tag rebel fleet at endor. you'd think they'd at least try to "prevent them from escaping". depite their weapon placements being mostly broadsided, they only score hits on targets on the same trajectory. the "dreaded" imperial navy must suffer from incompetent crews to show performance that poor. this may shed interesting light on imperial training regime. they were able to field 25000 ISDs, but they obviously were "little" short on good men. no wonder Vader ends up choaking admirals. ADMIRALS!!! you'd expect some level of competence from the senior staff right?
     
  9. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    Really? How about some evidence? And how about you tell us exactly what they did to do it? Having ships specifically modified to do that isn't proof that they'll do it.

    And if they can, why don't they ever use it for combat? If they don't use it in battle, then it must not be a viable tactic. And again, how strong are those SW shields? The Voyager, a light scout ship meant for short missions, was able to survive the blast of a small planet, and still have their shields around 20 or 30 percent. Not to mention we have evidence from Chakotay that the Voyager hit an ice planet at full impulse, and only have a few decks of the ship compacted, and some damage to the warp nacelle. And then we have the Enterprise D, which survived a fall from orbit after the engineering section of the ship exploded. Granted, the inside was torn up pretty bad, but the outer hull looked to be in fair shape considering. Oh, and then we have the fact that earlier in the show, we saw a klingon photon torp bypass their shields and hit the hull itself, blowing in only a small hole into their armor (well, relatively small). For a multi-megaton weapon (at least), that's pretty damn impressive.
     
  10. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    Huh, 12 ISDs? Last I checked, even the most wanked numbers place one ISD at destroying the surface of a planet in an hour, and most people still stick to the 24 hour claim.

    Let's take a look at that shall we?

    You see, in TDiC, we see twenty Cardassian and Romulan warships heading to the Founder's homeworld to obliterate it. Upon their first volley, they obliterate 30% of the planetary crust. One volley. Dividing it up evenly (which isn't really fair, since Cardassian ships are pretty crappy compared to the warbirds, so it's likely that the warbirds did more damage, but this is conservative), we have each ship putting in 1.5% of that planetary damage. Now, it took about five seconds for them to destroy that 30%. Now, assuming they were firing at full power, and it takes them another five seconds to ready their next one (a fair estimation), it would only take them about thirty seconds to destroy 90% of the planetary crust, about forty for the whole damn planet. Now, let's see, math has been some time past, but it should be that would be 666.6666667 seconds, or 11.11 minutes in order for one ship to destroy 100% of a planet's crust. That's about 5.4x stronger than your standard ISD, and that was BEFORE the Dominion war, and BEFORE the Voyager returned from her seven year journey.

    This is of course, supported by the fact that in Broken Link. Garak claimed that the Defiant had enough firepower to reduce the Founder's home world to a cindar. Given that he wanted to kill the Founders before the Dominion could destroy the Defiant, that helps support the idea of 11.11 minutes to destroying a planet. Yeah...the Empire is fucked.
     
  11. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    That doesn't include new weapons like Quantum Torpedoes, Heavy Phasers, and Phase Cannons
     
  12. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    True, but it didn include the Romulan Warbirds, but it averages out with the crappy Cardassian weapons. That's why I stick to 1.5% for the UFP ships, since they're about inbetween the two (on average, you have some like the Akira, Defiant, Soverign, Galaxy, and Nebula who could perhaps equal that firepower with the new UFP upgrades...actually the Soverign can probably do 2.5 or even up to 4.0 with its armaments).

    Although, the UFP has yet to get those phase cannons to work, but yeah, heavy phases and torpedoes are indeed later on. And that's not even including all the illeagle technology the UFP COULD employ to beat the Empire.
     
  13. USS Athens Very Special Senior Member Valued Senior Member

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    1,265
    Remember what happended directly after the admiral jumped out of hyperspace to close to rebel sensor range?

    *Vader Chokes Admiral*

    Vader to Captain Needa: "(some random order) Admiral Needa"

    The Empire is in desparate need of more men, so Vader puts in way to many promotions.
     
  14. FoolFromHell Photons be Free. Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    421
    Look here. In the episode "the Omega Directive" Ensign Kim states 50 isotons can destroy a small planet.

    And a standard photon torpedo is 64 isotons. Imagine Quantum Torpedos...

    So, a small ship like Voyager can destroy a whole planet. Imagine a fleet.
     
  15. USS Athens Very Special Senior Member Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,265
    There is no proof of this. But if even if there was, we have never seen an ISD successfully hit an enemy ship at an impressive range. Either that or the empire has the most badly trained crews in all of the universe (which is also to an extent true, seeing as they are poorly disciplined).

    Here is a good diagram for you:

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    And please, read this article. Weapon Ranges
     
  16. USS Athens Very Special Senior Member Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,265
    Are you sure? Then what about the whole Joint Romulan-Cardassian attack argument? If that were true, then obviously the attack would have acheived it's goal in much less of a time...
     
  17. FoolFromHell Photons be Free. Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    421
    Wait. I'm wrong. A Photon Torpedo only has the power of 25 isotons. But, Kim was easily able to make an 80 isoton torpedo in that episode. So, I wouldnt put planet-destroying capabilities past the Federation.

    The Cardassian/Romulan bombardment is something I have no idea about.
     
  18. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,938
    it CAN destroy a planet - but it'd have to be able to get into the core first.
     
  19. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,447
    when they said desrtoy, they probably ment lay wate on it, and by a small planet they probably consider a planetoid of several hundreds kilometers in diameter. a 18.2 isoton torpedo should be equivalent of 60+ megaton warhead, but with most of it's blast directed (see "hull compromised" scene in ST6). however this data originates from the tech manual which is not canon. still a 60 megaton directed blast is perfectly capable of laying waste and even oblitarating several 100s meters of asteroids (depending on the composition).
     
  20. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    I hate to argue, but Kim may have been exagerating, and we have no idea by what he meant by a small planet. Plus, the strange nature of the weapon may do that, via the power of technobabble. Thus, let's use better styled quotes, shall we? Otherwise we'll slip into the cesspool that is Stardestroyer.net.

    Enterprise:

    Reed : "Photonic torpedoes. Their range is over fifty times greater than our conventional torpedoes. And they have a variable yield. They can knock the comm array off a shuttle pod without
    scratching the hull, or they can put a three kilometre crater into an asteroid."

    The 1.8 crater that the military made with a nuke was 15 megatons. Granted, the moon is smaller, so I'm not sure if it would take as much energy, but surely it can't be lower than per say 30 or so megatons, givne the level of energy needed. Thus, already, we see that ST can toss around some nice level weapons.

    TOS:

    Scotty : 'All cities and installations on Eminiar VII have been located, identified and fed into our fire control system. In one hour forty five minutes the entire inhabited surface of your planet will be destroyed.'

    Here we see that in 45 minutes, the entire inhabited surface of the planet would be destroyed. This suggests that the Enterprise, with just no more than 50-100 photon torpedoes (the phasers were stated by Scotty to be incapable of firing with the shields up at full strength, although this is a very strange quote by itself, so it's possible the deflectors were on a special setting to absorb more energy from the planet's weapons). Given this, even a 23rd century UFP ship is easily capable of dealing heavy damage to the surface of a planet.

    Marcus : 'From what I understand, your vessel could lay waste to the entire surface of the world.'

    Granted, Marcus doesn't know the Enterprise's specs, so this is more of secondary evidence, but the fact that he had a starfleet captain as his advisor for six years would suggest he would have an inkling of what the UFP could do.

    Scotty : 'Mister Sulu. What do your sensors show?'
    Sulu : 'We can't beam anybody down sir. The forcefield on the planet is in full operation and all forms of transport into the asylum dome are blocked off. '
    Scotty : 'Aye... we could blast our way through the field but only at the risk of destroying the Captain, Mister Spock and any other living thing on Elba II.'
    McCoy : 'How can we be powerful enough to wipe out a planet and still be so helpless!

    It seems that even combatting a planetary shield would have been too much of a risk to Kirk and Spock in order to be a viable tactic. Thus we see that even teh 23rd century Enterprise is able to lay waste to a planet.

    A Taste of Armageddon: We are told by Spock, that a small portion of antimatter in a bomb, is capable of blowing off half the atmosphere of a planet. Later, this seems to be true.

    The Immunity Syndrom: A power sucking 11,000 mile wide ameoba is destroyed by an antim-matter bomb used by Kirk and crew, obliterating the creature. Granted, it's just an ameoba, but it's awsome all the same.

    Later 23rd Century: During the movies of the TOS crew, we learn that the Enterprise is at least five years old before Kirk gets it (and likely older than that), and later we learn that it has to go through a refit so large in the Motion Picture, that they basicly built a new ship into the frame. And this is after we learn that the Enterprise had at one point used lasers, and then switched to phasers later, showing that it had already gone through a complete weapons change before Kirk took command. These MP updates last for only a few years, to the point where Starfleet is forced to retire the ship because it was too damn old, with the Excalibur class taking over as the strongest ship of their time.

    This suggests, that even before the 24th century rolls around, that the starship that could lay waste to the surface of a planet is severly outdated and needs replacing.

    The Next Generation:

    The Survivors: In this episode, we see a warship that left the entire surface of a planet wasted, as if the entire planet had been through a war. On the surface we see a horribly deformed world with the burnt our remains of what used to be trees. While some strange clacs were tossed about throughout the episode, these must be taken in with some skeptisim, since there is no way the warship, with its claimed yields, could have done as nearly as much damage as it did in three days time...or even be a threat to the 22nd century Enterprise, let alone the 24th century Enterprise D. Thus, either Worf was using some really strange methods for the calculation, or the weapon itself has some sort of strange effect. Given how Worf was only having trouble keeping the shield assembled (rather than just getting them blow through), the ship must use some sort of chain reaction, or funky technobabble device to deal out horrific damage. In any case, this shows that the crew, despite seeing the damage caused to the planet, was unafraid of challenging the warship. Given previous evidence, we can see why.

    Evil Skin: Towards the end of this episode, we see a massive explosion occur from just one torpedoe hitting the surface of the planet. Some claim that the shuttle that carried Troi was the cause of such an explosion, but wouldn't have the abomination on the surface tried to shield itself and the shuttle? So thus, this isn't really evidential of the Enterprise D's power.


    Deep Space Nine

    The Die is Cast: Here we see that a small fleet of 20 Romulan and Cardassian ships are able to destroy 30% of the planet's crust within five seconds. Some claim that because Lovok claimed that the fleet would take hours to destroy the surface of the planet, that the later example is wrong, further proven by the false transponders sending back false sensor readings.

    But this is somewhat hard to swallow. First of all, Lovok was speaking to Garak, whom he didn't trust, and even went to the point of threatining to kill him should he enter the battle bridge. Thus, why would Lovok, who didn't trust someone, tell them a crucial portion of how long it would take them. While Garak was once part of the Obsidian Order, there is no reason for Lovok to have known that Garak would know anything about weapon's yields, or how a Romulan Starship works. Thus, we can safely assume that he's lying.

    Furthermore, the false readings in TDiC only pretained to the number of life forms. Remember, the status of the planet had changed from having a 100% of its crust intact, to just 70%. The reason why the fleet discovered the trap is becuase the number of life forms didn't change. If the Founder were sending back false damage readings...why not the life forms as well? There is no reason to believe that they would do one, but not the other. Thus, we can believe that the planet itself has really lost 30% of its planetary crust.

    Broken Link: In this episode, Garak tries to destroy the Founders by hacking into the Defiant's weapon system, and destroying all life on their homeworld. When he's caught by Worf, he claims that the Defiant has enough firepower to reduce the planet to a burning cindar. Now, the claim would most likely only pretain to reducing the planet's surface to burnt ash. Now, this is somewhat less than what the other warships could do...why is that? Well, first of all, all the other ships in TDiC were battleships, or their equal. The Defiant is basicly an anti-ship, or a destroyer. That would mean that they focus primarly on destroying the other ship. Given the pulse-phasers, they Defiant likely can't put out as much sheer firepower as the Enterprise D could with a Phaser array, but the sheer power behind each pulse is able to punch through the shield and get some nice bleed through damage with the highly varying frequencies on each pulse.

    However, still note that the destruction of the planet's population would still have to occure before the Jem'Hadar are able to obliterate the planet. Now, we don't know how long the Defiant can go with the phasers, but I doubt it's any longer, or even close to what the Enterprise E could do. In Star Trek 10, we see that after only 18:04 minutes, that the Enterprise E had exhausted her complement of 250 photon torpdeos, and (let's say 45) Quantum Torpedoes, with phasers down to 4%.

    First off, the Enterprise E has eight photon torpedoe tubes, and one quantum torpedoe tube. Thus, each tube would hold about 31.25 torpedoes, and the Quantum torpedoe would hold about 45. This is a pretty impressive number of weapons. Now, let's see, we'll say that since you can't have a .25 torpedoe, we'll have the two extra in the forward twin launcher. Now, we saw that each one could fire about 3-4 in a rapid burst, so a full volley would be about 32 photon torpedoes in a single full volley, not including the phaser banks. This means in eight fully volleys, we would have a depleted Sovereign. Assuming each volley takes about five seconds per shot, the Enterprise would exhaust itself in about 40 seconds of launching several heavy volleys.

    Now, as for the Qs, we see that the Enterprise can fire four of these at a time, and with only 45 torpedoes, she could do it in 12 volleys. Assuming again that each volley is 5 seconds apart, we would get sixty seconds, or a minute. Thus, at most, it would only take the Enterprise a full minute to empty herself of every torpedoe she has.

    Given that the Enterprise was only firing a few shots every now and then, in order to make every shot count, we can safely assume they evenly spaced each shot.

    In any case, the event of 18:04 minutes is an upper limit. Now, the Defiant doesn't have nearly as many launchers, or torpedoes. At most, she has 45 Quantum torpedoes, and perhaps 90 photon torpedoes. She has two photon launchers (one on the nose, and in the aft), and two quantum torpedoes. Typically, we see that the Defiant only fires one torpedoe at a time, and we'll assume five seconds between shots. Thus, it would take about 112.5 seconds, or 1.875 minutes in order for the Defiant to empty itself of all its QTs. Now, assuming a complement of 90 photons, we have 225 seconds, or 3.75 minutes. Again, we see that the Defiant would be able to empty herself in a realtively short time frame.

    Now, from a phaser standpoint, the Enterprise E has 14 phaser arrays, and the Defiant has 4 pulse phasers, and 2 phaser banks. The Enterprise was reduced in 18 minutes at the very least. Thus, to a ship with a much lighter armament, I'll go with half, giving it nine minutes.

    All in all, that planet had about 9 minutes to live if Garak had succeeded.
     
  21. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

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    1,099
    Again, Kim's quote has been brought into question, so I often just go with the TDiC example, where they destroy 30% of the planetary crust in 5 seconds flat. Again, it would have taken at most of 40 seconds to destroy the planetary crust off of a Class M planet with 20 ships. With one ship, about 11 minutes.
     
  22. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

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    1,099
    Nope, not at all.

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    I do know someone calced Voyager's torpedoes at 60 megatons though. Going with this idea, the Enterprise E would have an armament of 15,000 megatons. However, it could be much higher, especially given what we saw in TDiC. According to the Daystrom Institute, the torpedoes in that episode could be calced from 25 thousand megatons, to 20 billion megatons, depending on how you look at it. Personally, I'd go with the lower number, just to be on the safe side.
     
  23. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    The enterprise E was brought down to 4% phaser strength because of damage to the ship... it could fire its phasers at maximum power indefinately for the course of it's mission lifetime if it so wanted.
     
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