Muslim Experience in America

Discussion in 'Politics' started by DiamondHearts, Aug 6, 2008.

  1. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    That is an abject, deliberate, lie. And you know it.

    Same.
     
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  3. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Orthodox Judaism as I understand only recognizes a person as being Jewish IF their mother was Jewish. Which is fine in Iran or KSA or wherever but is not fine in the USA as that should be against the law.


    Since we're side tracked I'd like to make a couple other points.

    1) The USA is only in Iraq because of oil. They probably wouldn't mind if the place was a secular democracy and had freedoms etc... but the reason we entered into war with Iraq was because Iraq sits on top of a shit load of oil.

    2) Many countries that have absolutely nothing to do with America also don't think very highly of Islam or Muslims. My Chinese friend says most Chinese think Muslims (in the ME) are overly religious probably a little nuts and because of this their societies are backwards.

    Now, I seriously doubt that the USA controls Chinese media. Similar sentiments have been said to me by Japanese and Singaporeans and Europeans and Indians.

    Three Iranian friends independently told me (in a nut shell) that Islam is a medieval and the reason why their country is going in the wrong direction. Hmmm do you think the USA controls Iranian media?

    Please,


    Now, if we go back to the questions I posited we can see why.
     
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  5. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    don't forget the Taoists too...

    Fatal blasts hit Chinese province


    Oh, and Hindu, don't forget them too...

    Indian cities on high alert after blasts


    Oh, and Buddhists, don't forget them.. they may seem peaceful but it's all an act
    Explosion in Thai town


    Oh and Muslims, they declared war on Muslims too
    Furious militants battle police at Pakistan’s Red Mosque



    :bugeye:

    oh, wait, scratch that last one, it's just there are so many people that can not get along with Muslims that I got carried away...

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  7. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

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    Maybe, but your comprehension sucks.

    Actually the American troops do not provide body counts but they are still tracked. Only any given day there are more muslims who are behead, detonated and murdered by fellow muslims than there are of all other cuases combined.

    Becuase they claim to be muslims. I would argue they are criminals, but they labled themselves.

    Not actually, I have seen that moderate muslim are just as upstanding as any other religion. It's the extremists you have to worry about.

    Yeah , let IRAN annex Iraq and Afghanistan! Brilliant, right up there with playing russian roullette with a minigun.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2008
  8. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    Genuine 1984 speak.
     
  9. DiamondHearts Registered Senior Member

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    It's always easy to pick on a weak and demoralized people. For 200 years, the people of the Muslim World have faced the worse oppression, colonization, and slavery at the hands of European powers and her children. According to Gideon Polya, an Australian professor, the Western powers have killed 1 billion Muslims from the years 1900 to 2000.

    If you think this conflict started in 2001, you are ill-informed. This conflict started with the Western invasion of Muslim territories starting from the Crusades in approximately 1099 A.D.

    The Muslim world, along with the oppressed people of Africa, South America, and East Asia, must rise above the colonial aspirations of the Western power structure. We still have not liberated ourselves from the yoke of Western colonial dominance, we need to wake up to the reality.

    That is not my solution, but I must agree with you that that is far more preferable to allowing the American imperialists to remain in sovereign Muslim land, while they vilify Islam and Muslim peoples in the world. The people of Iraq and Afghanistan no longer trust that foreigners like the Americans and Europeans will give them justice because of the unnecessary bloodshed they have caused. Their moral and ethical bankruptcy is shown by how they treat innocent Muslim people in Guantanamo, Abu Ghareeb, Bagram, and a number of other prisons which they run.

    The Iraqis and Afghans are MUSLIMS. That is a fact, and no amount of American propaganda will change that. Those who hate Islam or Muslims cannot be expected to be love Iraqis or Afghanis because these people are MUSLIMS.

    My point is that a Bush administration which demonizes Islam, and arrests and detains innocent Muslims in the US cannot be expected to be fair for Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan. As we see, a government which covers up the crimes in places like Guantanamo Bay (which is not far from the American homeland) cannot in common sense treat those in Iraq and Afghanistan any better. Abu Ghareeb and Bagram are just the tips of the iceberg.

    Can a government which allows their prison guards to force Muslim inmates to bow down on a Satanic circle and denounce God be expected to treat other Muslims with respect? [Source: James Yee's For God and Country: Faith and Patriotism Under Fire]

    http://www.democracynow.org/2008/1/11/guantanamo_a_look_back_at_six

    http://www.democracynow.org/2005/10/6/fmr_army_chaplain_james_yee_on
     
  10. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    Welcome to the Conversion to Judaism Home Page, the web site of the Conversion to Judaism Resource Center. The Center provides information and advice to people who are considering converting to Judaism and to those who have converted. Members of the Advisory Board of the Conversion to Judaism Resource Center include: Rabbi Bradley Shavit Artson, Rabbi Rachel Cowan, Dr. Nan Fink, Dr. David Gordis, Rabbi Irving Greenberg, Yossi Klein Halevi, Dr. Edward Hoffman, Dr. Walter Jacob, Professor Julius Lester, Patti Moskovitz, Rabbi Barbara Penzner, Lena Romanoff, Susan Weidman Schneider, Rabbi Harold Schulweis, Rabbi Alan Silverstein, Rabbi Neal Weinberg, and Professor Zvi Zohar.


    CONVERSION IN ISRAEL:

    For 35 years the WUJS Institute--Center for Hebrew and Jewish Studies in Arad, Israel has provided intensive introductory Jewish education to young Jewish graducates and professionals from all over the world. This year WUJS has gained recognition to enable them to provide a conversion to Judaism course. The program runs under the auspices of the Institute of Jewish Studies as established by the Israeli government in the wake of the conclusions of the Neeman Report on conversion. The program provides serious residential study in a pluralistic environment leading to halachic conversion through the Israeli rabbinate. For further information, contact Rabbi Aubrey Isaacs

    Requirements
    Rabbi Marc Angel notes that "The Bible does not describe a formal process for conversion."

    However, the Talmud (Keritot 8b), sets out three components for a conversion to Judaism, which must be witnessed and affirmed by a beth din:

    Circumcision (Brit milah or hatafat dam brit) for men
    Immersion (tevilah) in a mikveh (ritual bath) for both men and women
    Offering a certain korban (sacrifice) in the Beit Hamikdash (the Temple) - this requirement does not apply today because the Beit Hamikdash does not exist.
    The consensus of halakhic authorities also requires a convert to understand and accept the duties of the halakha, classical Jewish religious law. This is not stated explicitly in the Talmud, but was inferred by subsequent commentators.[4]

    After confirming that all these requirements have been met, the beth din issues a "Certificate of Conversion" (Shtar Giur), certifying that the person is now a Jew.[5]



    Now how about some verifiable proof?

    Exactly.

    See what?
     
  11. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    :roflmao:

    The Population of the World only reached 6 billion in 2000, total Muslim Population is 1.84 billion in year 2007, if your statement were any where near correct there wouldn't be a Moslem left alive on the face of the earth.

    Gideon Polya

    Gideon Polya was born in Melbourne (1944), was raised in Hobart, Tasmania (1946-1966) and graduated BSc (Hons) from the University of Tasmania (1966), PhD from the Flinders University of South Australia, Adelaide (1969) and Certificate of Higher Education Teaching from La Trobe University, Melbourne (2003). He is married with 3 children and a grandson.

    In a 4 decade academic scientific career Gideon Polya published some 130 works including the huge pharmacological reference text Biochemical Targets of Plant Bioactive Compounds. A pharmacological reference guide to sites of action and biological effects (Taylor & Francis/CRC Press, London & New York, 2003) (see GALLERY for further details). For ready access to some of his scientific journal publications search Google Advanced Scholar for GM Polya

    A PHD, in Pharmacology.


    The conversion of Constantine in 313 gave rise to a new Christian presence in the Holy Land. Constantine's mother, Helena, helped populate the land with churches and monasteries, and over the next three centuries, the Holy Land witnessed an influx of Christians from various parts of the Roman empire, including Greeks, Armenians, Georgians, Egyptians, and Syrians. The Byzantine emperor, meanwhile, governed the land.

    Muslim Arabs invaded the Holy Land and took Jerusalem in 640.

    When Muslim Arabs invaded the Holy Land and took Jerusalem in 640, these Christians viewed the newcomers as "liberators," joined their cause,

    It was a tragic miscalculation. What followed was the gradual decline of the church in the Holy Land, as Muslim overlords reduced Christians to servitude (dhimmis) and prohibited Christians from proselytizing Muslims.

    The Holy land was Christian and it was taken from the Byzantine Empire, by Moslems who invaded the Holy Lands and reduced the Christian Majority to Dhimmis and then reduced the numbers of Christians to less then 20% of the pre-Moslem invasion numbers.

     
  12. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Ah yes, the violent Muslims. Invading and occupying countries, pounding children with missiles, throwing nuclear and cluster bombs on civilians, supplying arms to terrorist groups.
     
  13. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    You mean 633–656 when the Muslim Crusades attacked and murdered innocent Persians.
     
  14. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Did you miss the part in the same post where I said the USA invaded Iraq for oil? US solders are killing Iraqis ultimately to secure Americas future energy needs and to put the US in a position to control Chinese growth.


    Now I have a couple questions SAM.

    1) I can't remember, do you think it's a good thing to legally distinguish citizens based on their personal religous belief? Or is this a bad thing?

    2) Why is it, do you suppose, that I keep meeting Japanese, Thai, Chinese and Indians who ALL think Muslims and Islamic society are backwards violent people and a medieval culture. Why?

    Of course this is a generalization but the same could be said of Buddhists. Why are Buddhist known for being so peaceful? Not to say this was or will always be the case, but I wonder why that is the case. It's not like Buddhists haven't been persecuted. The Chinese and Vietnamese burned their temples, the Chinese conquered their holy land, the Hindu denounced their faith, the Japanese persecuted them pre WWII. The Muslims destroyed their University and treated them with prejudice. YET, they are still known as a peaceful religtion, whereas Muslims are always known as violent people?

    Why do you suppose that's the case? Really, I want to know why it is you can go from liberal Europe, to Canada, to India, to China to the Philippines to Thailand to Japan to Africa - why is it everyone things that Islam is the most violent backwards religion on earth today? Why? Surely JOOS don't control Chinese, Russian, Filipino or Japanese media?

    So why is it?


    When Reza told me he attended a Mosque in Japan and Japanese converts couldn't wait to kill Jews and infidels (with zeal). Why? What is the answer?



    Well SAM, what's the answer?
     
  15. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    There is something you will have to come to terms with. A large part of the reason why Islamic societies are so screwed up has directly to do with the Qur'an and other Islamic teachings.

    Reza once said, he doesn't believe in God. But, many people need a God. So he is not against religion because that is the stage most people are at right now. But, he also thinks if Iran was Xian, then it'd be a much better society. His exact words were: Iran would be exactly like any other European country. But because of Islam it's more like any other Arab country. He said you can not separate Islam from Arab culture. Not as long as you use the Qur'an. And for that reason, even though he is no fan of Xianity, he still thinks (as an atheist) that Iran would be much MUCH better today if the people were mainly Xian.

    Do you think he is right SAM? If Iran were Xian instead of Muslim, do you think it would be just about like any other European country?

    Michael
     
  16. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    One thing I'm curious about, have Muslims in their long history, ever invaded and occupied another country? Did they ever kill children and women?

    If so when and where?
     
  17. DiamondHearts Registered Senior Member

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    Some people think that the conflicts in the Middle East are religious in nature. Nothing is farther from the truth.

    To put it rather simply, the issue is that of self-determination and economic independence.

    NO Western nation has ANY right whatsoever to occupy ANY inch of the Muslim world.

    After 200 years of colonist occupation and their encountering stern and resolute resistance, you would think they learned their lesson. It seems that the Western world has an obsession with occupying land which does not belong to them. The power structure in the West feels it is their duty to rule the entire world, either directly or indirectly.

    They do not have even the right to occupy an INCH territory which does not belong to them.

    Those who demonise and ridicule Muslims and attempt to vilify Islam are puppets of these people and provide ammunition to kill more innocent Muslims and justify the conquest by the West of land which does not belong to them.

    America itself is a stolen territory. Where are the original inhabitants? They have been massacred and hunted into non-existence. Their lands have been taken from them. These people want to do the same in the Muslim world, but will NEVER be able to accomplish this.

    Also, Iran is not an Arab country, it is a Persian Islamic country and proud of its heritage. Iran is the birthplace of many great thinkers of Islamic philosophy and science, and it is a part of the Muslim world. Nearly all of Central Asia and Western Asia became Muslim because of Iranian wandering teachers.

    Regarding the issue of whether these nations would be more passive to foreign occupation if they weren't Muslim, I honestly don't have an answer.

    http://rupeenews.com/2008/03/31/wha...d-what-is-islam-went-away-corollary-to-usher/
     
  18. KennyJC Registered Senior Member

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    2,936
    You could not be farther from the truth. If a simple cartoon mocking their religion can provoke mass riots and deaths, then it is nothing else but religious violence.

    If you can get this much anger out of muslims from really trivial things, then things like the Iraq war becomes irrelevant.

    Wrong. Whilst I disagree with the occupation of Iraq, they were justified in invading Afghanistan. They were harbouring those responsible for 9/11 and would not cooperate in bringing them to justice. What was the US supposed to do? Just say "Oh... OK"?

    Muslims demonise themselves and ridicule themselves. Even though muslims don't have the same military might as the west, it's plain to see that they are the most violent, oppressive and idiotic people on the face of the Earth. It's like re-living the christian dark ages all over again.

    But in truth the 'West' is so scared of upsetting muslims that they have to ban the publication of books like this because that is enough to start violent riots - so fickle and violent are the muslims.

    Muslims wouldn't have done that if they had the means? If it was not the Europeans, it would have been someone else - I dread to think of a world were it was the muslims who were the first to colonize the planet.

    And if the 'West' was to fall overnight, this country would be the new colonizers. First stop: Israel.

    Oh, what a great many beheadings we could look forward to.

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  19. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    I think it would be near impossible to remove religion from all aspects of conflict in the ME. It's so tightly ingrained in the culture. When the Iranians hung citizens for being homosexuals, was this due to culture, religion, both? Maybe it was because of the West, or the occupation of Iraq, of maybe Jooish conspiracy? Or, maybe, just maybe, it was religious teaching that has now been accepted so thoroughly that it IS now culture?

    I for one don't want the USA to occupy Iraq or any place in the ME. I only wish that we could get completely off oil and leave the ME to itself.

    I wonder if DH has even been to UAE? It's interesting how Arab Muslims see non-Arab Muslims. It reminds me of a post in another thread actually.

    Anyway, I know many Muslims in the USA, if they are normal Americans they are treated like normal Americans. This means keeping one's religion private. If they walk around in a burka, yeah, they WANT to stand out and they WANT to be treated differently, and gee they probably are.

    I'm still wondering if Hindus should be allowed to build temples in KSA? How about polytheists? Baha'i?
     
  20. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Who did the Iranians hang for being homosexual?

    The US, after seven years of pounding Afghani civilians, still does not have evidence that the people "harbored" by Afghanistan had anything to do with 9/11.

    Afghanistan is not obliged to give up any person in its country without evidence of criminal involvement. In addition, even with evidence of criminal involvement, if you do not have an extradition treaty with the state, you cannot demand they give up people to them. The Taliban asked for evidence several times, agreed to try Osama themselves if given evidence or hand him over to a third, neutral party. The US refused, because evidently, providing evidence is not how crime is addressed. Pounding civilians with tons of ordnance is how its done.



    Heh, like invading two countries and killing millions because you cannot do your own job?
     
  21. KennyJC Registered Senior Member

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    They'd still be carrying out terrorist attacks and going crazy over cartoons if it weren't for the Afghanistan and Iraq wars. The infidel would remain their least favourite people even without wars, and they would do their level best to start wars with the infidels.

    That's just what happens when children are hunched over the Koran for years on end.
     
  22. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Based on what? Your fancy? The Afghanis have not invaded any countries and neither have the Iraqis. In both countries , the people are fighting for their own self determination, except that the US has a habit of funding extremists and installing their puppet governments there. When they are not bombing the crap out of them.
     
  23. lepustimidus Banned Banned

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    S.A.M:
    The U.S isn't 'pounding' civilians, it's pounding Afghani (and sometimes foreign) insurgents. There is a difference S.A.M, even if you refuse to acknowledge it.

    I also note how you conveniently ignore the terrorist actions of the insurgents against the Afghani civilian population. Fancy that.

    Look like you need to bone up on your 20th century history, S.A.M.
     

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