Star Wars vs Star Trek

Discussion in 'SciFi & Fantasy' started by Pollux V, May 9, 2002.

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Which universe would win?

  1. Star Trek

    227 vote(s)
    35.5%
  2. Star Wars

    268 vote(s)
    41.9%
  3. Spaceballs

    47 vote(s)
    7.3%
  4. Farscape

    12 vote(s)
    1.9%
  5. Dune

    50 vote(s)
    7.8%
  6. Stargate

    36 vote(s)
    5.6%
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  1. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

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    Actually Occam's Razor suggests it did do it's job through DET as it is the only method that would have the effects we see in the movie without some sort of freakish extra explanation.

    Also consider that the power generation for the vessel was explained as hypermatter which is never fully explained. It could be anything from a ultra collapsed star to matter gained from hyperspace wit unknown qualities.

    As for ship speed, moving a station of that density and size would take un believable levels of power, not to mention bringing the ship to Hyperspace with a Class 2 Hyperdrive. If an ISD uses more power in one jump than the entirety of Earth has used through mankinds civilization one can only think how much the Death Star uses,

    As for the shields, they easily could have given overlapping coverage, but made a concious effort not to do so. The only vessels deemed a threat to the Death Star were Capital ships. The SHields would have kept them out and under the fire of Thousands of Heavy Turbolasers. Meanwhile lettuing the Death Star launch fighters without lowering any shielding of consequence. It was a design decision, though one I agree was not the wisest decision in retrospect.
     
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  3. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Even so, we're saying it takes a station of that magnitude to begin to destroy planets... and that' with an extremely long "countdown" sequence...

    Species 8472 can do that with a single frigate and 8 battleships... not to mention their "dreadnaughts" an their motherships firepower...

    My point is, in the end, what would you rather have - the ability to slowly generate enough sheer energy to do that... or the ability to just warp in, *pop*, warp out with a basicly disposable fleet?
     
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  5. USS Athens Very Special Senior Member Valued Senior Member

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    Lol, TW's sockpuppet. Now if I could just make Plazma Inferno! believe me...
     
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  7. Saquist Banned Banned

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    Some of his explanations were quite...raw.
    Even TWSCOTT puts more effort into it than that. He wasn't serious. It was just like a mugging. Uncomfortable but brief.
     
  8. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

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    4,149
    Actually it would be very hard to get him to believe it, especially since if he makes even a cursory check we will not have even the remotely same ISP as we are not the same person at all.
     
  9. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

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    4,149
    Long countdown? They gave alderaan only a few seconds. The only reason they didn't destroy the the Yavin moon base so quickly is that thyey decided not to take out the gas giant blocking LOS.

    Actually, the center ship was much larger than the other ships and was of a different configuration. A one of a kind ship we do not hear mentioned again. In fact rhe Borg do not complein of losing more world, just more ships. So it truly might have been one of a kind. We also do not see any larger Species 8472 ships. All we see are the attack craft and the one special ship. If there were larger craft where were they? Why were they not deployed? Occam's razor suggests they do not exist.


    Small problem. The DeathStar wasable to destroy heavily shielded worlds. Yes the scene on Alderaan clearly show shields stopping the Superlaser for a fraction of a second. The second Death Star had a much more rapid rate as witnessed in ROTJ.

    As for Species 8472 it took several minutes of battle for the ships to get into position and then several seconds to charge up the weapon. They could pull off the trick once before people realize hit the special ship, or even take them out as they are charging up. Now i know you'll argue that they would say the same about the Death Star, but Star Trek just doesn't have the ability to damage the Death Star, let alone do so quickly.
     
  10. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Buh... you taking crazy pills again?
     
  11. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,149
    Actually Tarkin considered taking out the Gas Giant as an ineffective method of destroying the Rebellion in novelizaion. Remember a Gas Giant is much larger than a solid world but also much less dense and made of possibly volotile gasses. It could have been within the Death Star capabilit, though we cannot be positive.


    You do realize Frigates are SMALLER than battleships. The Klingon Bird of Prey is a Frigate the Enterprise D is a (small) battleship. The center ship in the Species 8472 formation was noticably larger and different than the ships powering it up. As for the rules of war, so far Species 8472 had been witping the floor with the borg, only losing vessels to concentrated power and rams. Even a dullard military leader would have commited larger units if he had them to finish off the enemy before they developed something. Since no larger units were deplyed (except the planet buster) then they must not exist.


    Everyne can plainly see the shield. In the originals the green glow was OUTSIDE the atmosphere of the planet. In the digitally remastered version the green glow is translucent and you can see intact clouds and undesturbed wheather patterns underneath it. Also the fact that the Superlaser some how luminesced parts of the planet that should not have been lit up thanks to curvature. If that isn't evidence of shields then Star Trek has no shields either. You can't have it both ways.

    If it was possible to come out warp in formation with the weapon charged, they would have done it. They actually made a point making sure you saw the ships come into formation and slow as they charged the center weapon. You also have no evidence that less ships would have been able to perform the same task.

    As for the crazy pills comment, that's just ad hominem.
     
  12. Saquist Banned Banned

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    3,256
    There is no shield.
    There isn't even a hesitation in the beam. The Destruction was instant. What you see is a flash point.
    The illumination you see (in the old edition) is merely the result of over exposure.

    The script makes no mention of a shield and and if the script makes no mission of it then it wasn't appart of the offical story line.



    And that's pretentious, Scott.
     
  13. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    So many assumptions... for only one ass...

    You know what they say scott... so stop doing it. Stick to what we see.

    And I have both versions RIGHT HERE - there is NO "green glow" outside the atmosphere... the overlay is a few pixels off at most, which makes sense - the atmosphere stretches a fair distance above the surface of a planet...

    And energy conduction inside a gas giant (gas) would be FAR more difficult than in a solid surface... basic physics.
     
  14. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,149
    So despite novelization supporting the possibility of the Death Star taking out a Gas Giant you resort to ad homienm.

    No, you have to stick with what you see when visualization and dialog disagree. When there is no direct argument between the two they stand.


    It's more than a few pixels off, and viewing a planet at that distance part of what you are seeing is atmospheric distortion. In other world the globe you see includes the atmosphere. A few pixels off is a few hundred miles above the atmosphere. You have almost not adressed in the remastered version the inconsistancies of a the green glow and the completely undisturbed weather/cloud patterns below. You can only have that when you have a protective screen. Novelization also agrees with Alderaan having shields and since the movie agrees, the novelization stands.


    Not always. Some solids are simply nonconductive meanwhile some gasses are very conductive. As with everything chemical composition accounts for a lot.
     
  15. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

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    4,149
    Actually there is a small delayin the explosion of the planet. You can see when you slow it down the interaction of a shield on the death star beam. Over exposure is not a valid argument in this thread.

    Script is not a valid argument in this thread as we are going by finished product. Lucas went to the trouble of making a very obvious shield interaction and agreed with the novelization that Alderaan had shields. therefore its was always story line.


    What? Calling somebody on a blatantly ad hominem attack is pretentious? You have rather shaky ethics my friend.
     
  16. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Okay... look... Movies are ultimate cannon. In the movie, they did not (and the way you use logic, we can assume they COULD NOT) destroy the gas giant. So meh.
     
  17. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    13,938
    Are... you kidding me?

    Try to conduct an electrical current thru thin air... now try to conduct it thru an ocean... now thru solid copper... what works better?

    Okay... now try this

    Try conducting it thru liquid sodium chloride...

    Now thru Solid, Liquid, and Gaseous oxygen... see what conducts better...
     
  18. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
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    Beh
     
  19. USS Athens Very Special Senior Member Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,265
    God dammit TW, do you really think there was actually a shield on Alderaan??? That is among the worst of the radical speculation you have posted on this thread, and yet you keep going on about it...
     
  20. Challenger78 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,536
    Dear god. This is going to go on forever, and ever, and ever,and ever,and ever,and ever.
     
  21. Saquist Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,256





    By admitting there was only a delay when slowed down you are there by admitting that without computer enhancement and time delay the average viewer is completely incapable of detecting the "delay". That Delay could easily and more likely be caused by the beams penetration to the core.

    Note: The Planet wasn't blasted away. It blew out as though from within. Thus the visuals cannot confirm a shield strike but a penetration of the core.

    Script is perfectly valid and acceptable as cannon according to Lucas Film if I recall correctly. The Novelizations are written from them. The only thing you've succeeded here...is to illistrate another glaring contradiction in canon. And since the Novelization is inferrior to the actual movie it'self then wouldn't you say that can be thrown out?

    P.S. Your terminology is pretentious. And that is a problem with your ethics not mine.
     
  22. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,149
    It's not radical speculation. First of all it is mentioned in Novelization. Backed up by Empire Strikes Back and Return of the jedi. Second Visualizations clearly support some sort of defenses that were over powered by the Superlaser. Third given the common interaction of SW shields against weapon such visualization is not needed, yet still exists.
     
  23. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,149
    No. We do not assume they could not unless they fired on it and it was not destroyed. Empire Strikes back gives ample reasoning why the gas Giant might be left intact. While movies are the highest cannon, to refute the possibility of the Death Star destroying Yavin IV it would have had to fire on it and fail to destroy it.
     
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