Star Wars vs Star Trek

Discussion in 'SciFi & Fantasy' started by Pollux V, May 9, 2002.

?

Which universe would win?

  1. Star Trek

    227 vote(s)
    35.5%
  2. Star Wars

    268 vote(s)
    41.9%
  3. Spaceballs

    47 vote(s)
    7.3%
  4. Farscape

    12 vote(s)
    1.9%
  5. Dune

    50 vote(s)
    7.8%
  6. Stargate

    36 vote(s)
    5.6%
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  1. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

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    i tend to agree with you. it looks to me like each micro-pulse Data fired had it's own focused modulation. this would explain the disruptions in the beam wich are not present when a full spectrum beam is being emited. as for the shields, maybe Kitt is right. i remember reading somewhere (maybe the TNG manual wich i don't have) that shields always try to match the frequencies in a way they block most of the incoming damage when left on their own. so in a way rotating shield harmonics may be a less eficient way to use them, both damage and energy consumtion wise. this could explain why they don't use rotating modulation in every encounter. it is only a last resort, when it is better to block at least some damage then be shieldless or imobilised.

    now when i Alpha Strikes are concened, yes i have no doubt they are brief. i just wonder how many of those can be made in quick succession before a cool down or recharge time is required . in the entire TNG we se 2 explicit "weapons on full" rutines in short order only once, against the Hushnock. and they are 10s apart. why did they wait for 10s ? are there micro-cooling processes involved betwean the major strikes? i.e. the banks are charged by the emiters are incapable of firing for a wile? i can't remember the torpedo firing rates. in single shot bursts they seam able to fire all 10 torpedoes with 0.5s interval in betwean. but how far are the 5 torpedo bursts? i don't recall them using to successive 5 torpedo bursts in other battles except for the above mentioned. however since they can not possibly fire more then 2 such spreads before reloading the tubes, maybe E-D phasers are "rigged" to suport this feature. like having 1 major phaser discharge per each spread. but then why are this discharges in Alpha Strikes discontinous? instead of 1 2.5s beam, we allmost always witness 2,3-4 beams. do phasers similary to shields try to find the most usefull frequency when computer controled? these features maybe a weakness against the Borg since they can predict computer behavior or a "logical" course of action, but would make the UFP a terifying oponent to anybody else.

    and Kitt, yuo were right. when computer controled, E-D is capable of warp power flactuations in time intevals of les then 0.01s.

    P.S. a bit off topic. Saq i supose u use Kobayashi Maru 1.0 ? is Deep Space Nine FX (3.0) included in it? i have KM 0.9.1 and i think it's missing. my problem is since i have a stronger machine i can aford the higher poligon models and textures that DS9FX provides. i have a separate install with high models for over 50 ships but it is far less stable. so i'd like to switch to KM1.0 as a working platform for my Hard Point project. i'd like my Hard Points to be as canon as possible for both my SW and ST ships

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    , but i allso like high detailed ships. so is DS9FX(along with it's nice ships-like Intrepid and Defiant) added to KM1.0?
     
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  3. Saquist Banned Banned

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    The Galaxy Class manul. Yes I read the same thing. it's intresting...a it conflicting if I remember in this situation. apparently as you pointed out shield frequencies don't modulate in normal combat but cover a certain range of weapons fire. This would explain why the Enterprise and Voyager tend to take damage even though the shields are up...especially Voyager.

    It's safe to just go with the two relases of the sierra pattern dispersal.


    Speculation:
    I believe that the Torpedo's are placed into a cluster casing. This weapon acts as a single torpedo in the tube and splits up after it clearly the ship. I believe the conveyor system in the tube system can load two and fire the second cluster 10 seconds later and then another two can be loaded.


    In the Borg Episodes with the cube in pursuit the Enterprise fired once every two seconds from the rear.

    In the Dominion war the Galaxy's forward tubes fired much faster about 1 a second to destroy the weapon platforms. may be signs of an uprade...

    However. Enterprise's attempt to revive a star had it firing roundds of torpedos into the heart of the start...rapid sucuession.


    Not back to back. But Enteprise did use them against the Klingon's once in Yesterdays Enterprise.

    I see this. Lets say they're linked so that the right about of power is channeled to all the weapons systems to provided a potent and withering punch on a target. Essentially the powered distribution is ratioined out for maximum impact. Good observance.

    I have three installs.
    Bridge Commander: This has a KM 1.0 mod installed as well as various ships I like. I don't alter this games' coding at all for multiplayer.

    Amplified BC: Is a non KM game with all my favorite ships. It's highly modified in the scripts department and backed up incase it crashes. Most of the Star Wars ships are here and altered to be short in firing range and guns primed at 1/10 that of the Galaxy phaser. (It still makes these ships lethal) I need to alter their firing range and targeting aspect to make it right.

    Hybrid BC This is KM 1.0 that is highly modifed and YES it does seem to come with the DS9 FX mod...(I know I haven't put it in.)
     
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  5. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

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    thanx for that info mate

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    just two more interesting opservations before i start my posts on SW VS STstrategy.

    1. in "Sacrifise of Angels", just after Defiant loses her escorts and begins evasive manoevres, in the background we can see a GCS firing a phaser on a Dominion AS and the blast that lasts for about 1s oblitarates abot 40% of the AS. since this was a free for all melee, we don't know if the shields on the AC were alleady down or weakened (probably were). in the same battle we se GCSs doing major damage on Cardassian Galors with phasers alone. however Dominion Battle Cruisers seam to fall only after simultanous torpedo and phaser/pulse phaser strikes.

    2. in "Preemptive Strike" the Maquis attack Cardassian convoys. after E-D interveens, the Cardassian commander sais the Maquis raiders (small scout/fighter ships)used photon torpedoes and type VIII phasers. he then asks how could civilians get those weapons. this implies that type VIII phasers are considered "military" ("destroyer") grade weapons. we know type X on the GCSs are probably "heavy" ("battle cruiser/ship") phasers. this leaves a potential empty spot for a type IX phaser, probably a "cruiser" weapon. i wonder what is considered a cruiser in the TNG-DS9-Voy era besides the Excelsiors? i think Nebulas being allmost sister ships to GCSs probably uses type X. this leaves Akira, Intrepid, Steamrunner as possible candidates for "cruiser" designations since Saber, Miranda and Norway are probably "destroyers".

    (i wonder how the TMP era ST1-6 phasers would be classified?)
     
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  7. Saquist Banned Banned

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    I would accept any information of GCS power...however from Sacrifice of Angels (which is one of the worse battle scenes in the series) it should be suspect. Almost every FX was wrong from the ship sizes to their fire power and features.

    That being said. IF it does show at attack ship being destroyed that is at least canon material that shows that in "JM" that this was likely an issue of weapon to shield adaptation.

    Assuming that the Galors that destroyed attack ships were refited. The the GCS should at least becapable of smilar fire power. But that still makes little since in comparison to the Defiant. You'll have to figure out a way to use the information that is contradictory in a balanced way. DS9 is hugely contradictory in fire power....But Defiant usually remains the same.

    Yes, I'd consider the Type 8 phasers to be Excellsior grade weapon systems. An Excelsior could definitely tango with a Galor and in the hands of more nimble fighters.


    Prometheus - 74913 OR 59650 ??Type XII Combat design
    Intrepid - 74600 ??Type X Combat/Defender design
    Defiant -74205 ??Type XI Combat Design
    Sovereign -73811 ??Type XII Combat Design
    Nova-73515 ?? Type VIII Science vessel
    Galaxy -70637 Type X Defender/ Combat Design
    Akira -62497 ??Type IX Combat/Defender
    Sabre - (Yeager) -61947 ??Type IX Defender
    Nebula - (honshu) - 60205 ??Type X Defender/Combat design
    New Orleans- 57295 ??Type VIII Defender
    Steamrunner - (Appalachia)-52136 ??Type IX Defender
    Excellsior -2000 ??Type VIII Combat Design
    Miranda (reliant) 1864 ??Type VII Combat/ Defender
    Constitution -1700 ??Type VII Combat/Defender
    Oberth -638 ??Type V Science vessl

    This is a chart I made for this dicussion that out lines the ships in order there registries imply production of the class.
    The battle designations:
    Science Vessel: Exploration low combat ability

    Combat/Defender: These ships are multirole platforms. Ranked by Fire power. These ships have 8 or more phaser arrays and the two torpedo tubes fore and aft OR more than the standard amount of torpedo tubes. Crew size and displacement are moderate.

    Defender/Combat: These ships are multirole platforms. Primary function is exploration and well equipped to Defend. These ships have 8 or more phaser arrays and more than the standard torpedo emplacements. Crew Size and displacement are above average.

    Defender: Marked by less than 5 phaser arrays. May have a standard or below torpedo set.

    Combat: Marked by emphasis of forward weaponry.
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2008
  8. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,447
    the data on the Intrepid came as a surprise to me, but then again Voyager is the least familiar ST show for me. so they menaged to mount type X arrays on it? how do they perform in battle? are they similar to the GCS phasers in performance? or are they underpowered? i'd never guess a patrol light cruiser like Intrepid to generate enough power to use type X phasers :shrug:

    BTW usefull chart. i'm about to reinstall my KM and it will come in handy

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  9. Saquist Banned Banned

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    I have wrestled with the Intrepid vs Galaxy debate.

    The problem I have with most opponets is they intrinicly believe a smaller ship means a small amount of Firepower. I can not stress the importance of leaving size perceptions out of a comparative analysis.

    We know Intrepid is equipped with at least 13 phaser arrays/ some believe 15 and four torpedo tubes. The number of arrays alone imply that is a combat oriented vessel. It's speed is another clue. Fastest ship in the Federation (Yes faster that the Prometheus' 9.9.) We also know that Intrepid was design with combat and manuverability in mind against the Maquis in the Badlands and in the DMZ.

    We also know that Star Fleet has a tendency of equipping there ships for solo machines. Federation ships don't fly in Task Forces or Formations unless in Star Fleet emergencies. Obvious Intrepid was a vessel that could deal with a large number a small combatants with easy and hunt down, pursue or intercept opponents within a large area.
    Look at the ship's sensor range. In VOY[Threshold] Ensign Kim scanned out to 5 parsecs! That's 15 light years. Further than than the Galaxy's several light years stated by Geordi. Intrepid has the speed to engage it's targets as well. Intrepid can intercept a situation 15 ly away in far under a day...9hs without stopping. Galaxy would take the better part of 2 days and it would still have to stop after 12 hours. That's a response time a victim could appreciate.

    Think about hurricane Katrina...A nine hour response time as opposed to 5 days. It makes a difference.

    Intrepid's fire power is surprisingly effective and has shown to be equal to that of the Galaxy. In [VOY] Basics part I had Voyager up against 4 One thousand meter long, unshielded Kason Motherships. While it's shields couldn't withstand the full assault of all Four ships it dealt out an amazing amount of abuse.

    Kazon Mother ships are unshielded. There armor is like that of the Cardassian Galor.
    In DS9 [Sacrifice of Angels] The Galaxy's phasers set a Galors armor ablaze in a huge fireball and the ship withered.

    Compare.

    Voyager fires mulitple beams on multiple targets and causes fireballs nearlly the size of Voyager herself on the kazon Hull. Voyager even takes down one of the mother ships before subcombing to concentrated Kazon fire. So Intrepid could handle a Galor class ship just as easily as Galaxy. There are other examples but surfice to say Admiral Paris equated that while the Voyager "was no Galaxy" it was smart.

    Intrepid can't take as much. I've find that it's shields often let more damage through while intact than the Galaxy. In most situations Voyager's shield strength seems to be 66% of the Galaxy's max shields.

    Look at that list and get a hold of some the ships schematics and it becomes clear.
    Intrepid has more arrays than Akira (3). Infact most of the ships in the First Contact have only 3 or 4 phaser arrays. Norway, Steam runner, Akira, Saber...(Norway I don't think I found even one phaser array)

    Once you equate Intrepid to other Federation ships...It suddenly becomes clear.

    Ships 8 or more phaser arrays:
    Galaxy 12
    Intrepid 13
    Sovereign 16
    Prometheus 16
    Nova 9 Note: This was previously a Defiant design.

    Ships with the most torpedo tubes:
    Akira 15
    Nebula 18
    Sovereign 8 plus

    Nova is the only Oddity with 8 and it's stated as a science vessel. However it's phasers may be it's best defense as it only has two forward tubes and that's it.

    I can only assume the similar phaser fire the appropriate torpedo tubes for an aft and the well distributed arrays but moderately shielded that this is best decribed as a medium cruiser not quite light as it is not armed lightly. This ship seems to be a fighter.
     
  10. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,447
    i wish a had the Voyager episodes. i have only the last 3 episodes on disk. Kazon ships are far better comparison then borg cubes. this would make the Intrepid quite a ship. it seams the diference betwean an Intrepid and a Galaxy is survivability and mission duration. don't know about torpedo power. they have 2 forward tubes for shure. maybe 2 aft? what is the max torpedo spread they used in battle? i guess they don't rely much on torpedoes since they only carry 30 or 40 of those.

    a personal opinion on phaser arays: it seams like the total amount of arrays is very variable from ship to ship. maybe the total phaser coverage is what we should analyse? i.e. one main dorsal array on a GCS is equivalent in coverage (probably in firepower too) to 4 dorsal arrays on an Intrepid.

    two major issues here:
    1. can Intrpid use the arrays at the same rate as the GCS?
    2. how long can Intrepid's power system suply the phaser in comparisson to a GCS? (the Sovereigh lasted quite a wile against the Scimitar)

    all in all, i agree with you. they underestemated the Intrepid when they clasified it as a "light" cruiser. it's more a "heavy" cruiser, at least when phasers are consirned. perhaps even a "battle" cruiser, since in naval terms battle cruisers are esencialy battleships with no or less armor but more mobility. but i would not go that far to dub the Intrpid a "battle" cruiser in terms of size and torpedo power.
     
  11. Saquist Banned Banned

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    I have the episodes on hand. I took snap shots with the vlc player of these scenes. I have to say they are quite revealing of the ship's firepower. The only thing that saved these ships was it's immense size.

    But yes. You're most correct I have found that the Intrepid has short mission duration. (1 -2 year mission for Intrepid) Look at the ships Hydrogen storage compared to the Galaxy. It's like comparing an oil tanker to water tower. I assume the same would be true for the anti-matter storage aswell. The Galaxy is also a larger ship. It can take more damage. The damage it does take to subsystem is reroutable through tripple and quadruple redundant back up systems.

    Voyager has two forward tubes and two aft tubes. There is no reason to believe that the Intrepid tubes are capable of cluster sierra firing patterns. Another Intrepid drawback. They have the newest torpedos Mark VI. But like you said only a complement of 35. That speaks volumes about it's total offensive ability. Torpedos are made to end engagements quickly. Maybe Voyager didn't go out with a full load. That doesn't really matter though. 35 is the most we've seen so it becomes the upper limit. It also says how much antimatter conservation concerned the designers. Logical. Taking on Maquis and Cardassian Galors wouldn't require such huge torpedo stores, not when escape against superior numbers is a better option. Since the DMZ is between the two governments refueling shouldn't have been a problem. So Intrepid was to be Border patrol ship

    It's possible and likely that is so. After all we did se the Galaxy split it's beams on at least two occasions. [Sacrifice of Angels] and TNG [Conundrum]

    I have previously done an analysis of the Federation ship phaser arrays. the diffrences are revealing. Galaxy the older class has very very smooth arrays. Aswell as the Ambassador Nebula, New Orleans and etc. However...The Prometheus, Intrepid, Sovereign and Nova...the newer ships have "ridged" arrays. And they all look different in themselves. Nova's are triangular tipped. Inrepid;s are rounded and heavily ridged. Promies are triangular and less ridged.

    It seems the ridges might be more efficient. In my experience ridges are typically an attempt to increase surface area for disapating heat.

    My instinct is to say no.
    We've never seen Intrepid use more than 3 arrays at the same time
    Now, Intrpid uses it's arrays for a longer duration. In [Basics Part one] Voyager had a single scene in which it assualted two passing Kazon mother ships and Voyager did not pause at all in fire. as one Mother ship passed Voyager used 3 arrays. Two converged on a target point on the port side and one on coming Mothership. The tandem use of her arrays were very good. Let me check and see if it was coming from one array or not.


    that's a very good question. The truth is I don't think we've seen the Intrepid preform and Alpha Strike. I really don't think that the ships energy reserves could resupply the phaser coils in ten seconds after an Alpha Strike like the Galaxy. That's where the smarter than the Galaxy comes in. With out the Three Impulse engine reactors and the extra fussion reactors than Galaxy has I really think the Intrepid become ill suited for long drawn out engagements.

    Look at it this way. That Galaxy generates more power than it needs at least by two times. Much of those systems could be shut down at battle stations if not for the massive crew. Still the ships batteries and aux power sould be more than enough to power a Intrepid through a typical engagement.

    Sovereign's phaser power supply MUST be ridiculously large. Look at First Contact. On it's second approach to the cube...It maintained a beam far longer than I have ever seen a ship hold it...then recharged in a second, fired again-holding the beam and continued to do so untill the Cube was destroyed. That was completelely ridiculous. I have never seen a ship do that before. We know that was at max power.

    We've also seen Sovereign at full battlestations maintain an engagement without a warp core. This tells us there is really not any serious draw on the total power systems of core, aux or battery power on a Sovereign class vessel. Either its terribly efficient or it's got massive battery stores and massive impulse power outputs.

    Hmm. Yes I would go that far either. If Intrepid were in the 23rd century it's size and phaser coverage would easily dub it a heavy cruiser. Now in the 24th century size classification has been upgraded. What was heavy is now light What was dreadnought is now heavy. Galaxy, Intrepid, Nebula and Sovereign aswell as Defiant are all part of the new classification.

    20th century military terms are always offensive.
    That's why instead of battleships, destroyers and heavy cruisers I classify the new generation in their priority roles. Defensivve or offensive. Star Fleet like I said do not typically operate in Fleets so I thought a new method was necessary.
     
  12. Saquist Banned Banned

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  13. Saquist Banned Banned

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  14. superstatic123 Registered Member

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    Something I think everyone was forgetting in these heated discussions about SW and ST, when they were bringing in other species from ST was species 8472... I wonder why no one even brought them up out of all the posts I've read? As a matter of fact, in just about every post I've read, they'd bring up everything but 8472! I just wonder why no one even thought of them.
     
  15. Saquist Banned Banned

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    They are part of a different dimension. Not Milky Way and while we've talked about it I find it a bit frivolous. They wouldn't help.
     
  16. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

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    those are some impresive snaps form Voyager. all the bursts were made in a single flyby? that's a lot of fire capability. and since those blasts are at least 270+m in diameter, we have no reason to belive they are on low power settings. maybe, since they have small torpedo load, they are less restricitive on phaser usage. in a GCS you like to coordinate your 6-7 phaser bursts with you toeprdo impacts for max shield penetration (usualy in groups of 3 burst per spread), in an Intrpid they just seam to let them have it all at once. the way intrepid slaloms through those battleships i don't think torpedoes would be of too much use anyway. hmm this discussion about fire discipline gave me an idea about starship shield operations. give me some time to gather my data.

    in the meanwile i'll start with the strategy assesment.
     
  17. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

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    3. Strategic engagement

    Here is where the Empire shines. At least in the total brute force. However in order to make this analasys remotely possible I have to make several (most likely incorrect) assumptions.
    1. the galaxy in which this conflict will occur is some 100-130000 light years across.
    2. both UFP and GE are a part of it.
    3. the empire consists mostly of the core and inner rim systems with only a few outposts in the outer rim
    4. the UFP is located in the outer rim and occupies relatively irregular space.
    5. the imperial Starfleet has 25000 star destroyers galaxy wide and countless support ships.
    6. the UFP Starfleet is composed of 9 fleets (extreme minimum) with an average ship count of 200-400 ships when at full (we know elements of 3 fleets in a prolonged war could amass for more then 1000 ships). I’ll assume 300 ships per fleet. This makes the total UFPS of 2700 combat worthy ships. Judging from the fleet scenes in DS9 their composition might be : 16% GCSs; 28% Excelsiors; 40% Mirandas; 16% other (Nebula, Akira, Defiant, Intrepid, Sabre- mostly newer heavier Cruisers ). This estimate is somewhat contradictory to what we see on screen during solo missions- i.e. far more Nebula ships. Perhaps we only see parts of the fleet. Or maybe some ships (Intrepid, Sabre) are not favoured for mass pitched battles.
     
  18. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

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    I. The empire
    The empire seams overwealmingly powerfull. It has 25000 capital ships plus many probably 1000 or so SSDs each as strong as 20 SSDs. In comparison UFP has a total of 432 GCSs. That’s 60 ISDs per GCS. I don’t have an exact number on Ship streinght ratios but I doubt that the GCS can match 60 ISD unless in a guerrilla warfare. However sooner or later they’d have to fight.
    The Empire seamed to able to field 25000 capital ships in a few decades. That is enormous production and demographic potential. In the beginning of this thread there were some silly posts about ship-building ships that manufactured ships on daily bases. I can buy the whole build ship in a day thing, but I can’t buy the born, grow, train the crew in a day thing. This is not starcraft lol. When you build a ship you need to man it. Maintenance is a major issue too. So I guess 25000 ISDs is the the empire at it’s height. More ships are simply not maintainable.
    The shipyards are confusing. We know there are many large facilities (Corlia, Mon Calamari) however all ISDs seam to be produced at Cuat?
     
  19. Saquist Banned Banned

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    Yes.
    On BC when you see ships use multiple arrays to attack there target or two different targets that comes from Voyager. Infact in some of those stills you can see that one array is creating two beams from the same point on the array. The torpedo run Voyager executes on the Fourth ship destroys it. 3 torpedos and it was over. No wonder Janeway was confident about walking into the trap.

    I have to agree with this as a strict canon estimate. As you've likely have seen I've used this with the combined registry total of 74913 between Galaxy and Prometheus that's 4276 ships. According to your numbers then there are 1197 Excellsior Class starships contructed.
    684 Galaxy Class constructed
    684 Nebula Akira, Defiant, Intrepid and Saber.-All but defiant and Intrepid are old ships. None of the "new" First Contact ships are new designs.
    1710 Miranda class ships.

    However I don't know if it is appropriate to combine you fleet observations with ship contruction data. It does not necessarly include ather ships which might have star fleet registries like runabouts and attack fighters but I don't think the registry system is for civilian use...but we assume it does have transports. That's not even the biggest constuction boom. Star Fleet produce more ships at the begining of the 24th century than anyother time. Think about it. The registry went from 2,000 in the mid 23rd century to 74,000 by the later half of the 24th century. Amazing. at least an average of 583 ships a year give or take a few years. Those numbers are quelled by destructions but mostly by decommisions over at least a hundred years maybe 120 years. Excelsior was still operational well into the Enterprise's 6th year of operation.



    That's true I didn't think about the 20 years as being so short a time period but that is a staggering number even compared to star fleet.
    I will say the Empire didn't seem to build alot of SSD level ships. I can name only as many as Six, and by the time the Vong War concluded they made it clear there was only one left and only one SSD was destroyed in the Vong War and the Empire had none of them. It seems these ships are rare.

    There are many ship yards but after the reading of the Vong Saga it would seem these are indeed the main fleet yards and ISD's are not constructed by the Calamari.
     
  20. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

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    that's some revealing data on the SSDs. i haven't read the books so this is news to me. BTW i never looked on the registry system in that way. actualy the number of ships may be greater then the registry implies. some ships use old registries (NCC-1701 E). if these compose 10% of the vessels that would seriously change things.

    ok, continuation...

    we have witnised the total size of the imperial navy. with the hyper drive, they won't have much truble to deploy it in any part of the known sectrors in a matter of days. the only opsticle apear to be uncharted hyperdrive routs. i'm not shure if these are canon, but if they are it means that any invasion on uncharted teritory will have to be done one step at the time. i.e. rapid attack, pause, rapid attack, advance.... there is one more thing. someone posted an interesting extra galactic scenario a while back. it serves as a good guide line, but it has on major flaw. it proposes an attack on an outpost world since they have week defences and are far away from reinforcements. this is quite ok. what is flawed is that this person asumes that this underdeveloped world can be used to suport an imperial assult force of 1000 or so ships and even developed to build new ships in a mater of months. even if such a resource intensive work (seeing how 1 ISD requires more then some star system's GDP to construct) is possibe with some magic wand, i don't see how any imperial commander will find enough recruits on any ocupied teritory. after all imperial policy is not realy favored even on it's own ground. i doubt they will have much suporters among UFP population, that seem to be reluctant to serve in their own Starfleet. so any Imperial incursion will have to rely only on its own streinght.
     
  21. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

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    so now that we have speed, industrial capacity and total streinght covered, we have one more thing to analyse. deployment.

    it's easy to say we have 25000 ships. or 1000000 troups. but what is more impotant is, can we use them? or how many can be used at any time. it seems the Empire's policy is to rule by terror. so ISDs are used to hold star systems in submission and often the sight of one ISD is enough to quell rebelions on many worlds.

    for this analasys i'll asume the galaxy is 120000 ly across, and the Empire contorls the inner 70000 ly. if the galactic disc is 5000 ly wide on the perifery and 30000 ly on the center we can begin our estemate of the total teritory the Empire holds. that's 19000 billion cubic ly if we esclude the corona and the core systems, but include the galactic center. if we take away the center ( 20000 ly across) this lives 17500 billion cubic ly left. if the core reaches 15000 ly from the center and is 30000 ly thick then we need to add aditional 10000 billion cubic ly for a total of 27500 billion cubic ly of teritory. since the core sectors are more densly populated with stars it would make them even more improetant and dificult to control, but for this argument i'll asume the star density to be uniform in all sectors. allso to be conservative i'l take only the volume of the galactic disc (17500 billion cubic ly) for active imperial theritory. this leavs each ISD to cover 700000000 cubic ly at the very least. or to make it more easy to represent, imagine the entire Empire devided in 888 ly cubes, and a star destroyer in the center of each. it's virtualy 1000s of systems to control by a single ship. this explains why they needed the Death Star. if you add those 10000 bilion cly from the core systems, you'll need to increase the size of those cubes to 1000+ ly. so the big question is, HOW MANY ships can the empire aford to commit for expeditionry forces, without sacrificing it's own stability and internal security?

    the afore mentioned poster estemated the imperial comitment at some 1000-2000 ships. if he ment ISDs, then i'll agree. but 2000 ISD ships is probably the very max they can aford to detach from their fleet. just look at it this way. at its height the Roman Empire had 20-40 legions, but most of these were needed to guard the borders. only in very few cases were 10+ deployed at the same time, and it would usualy cause financial breakdown in the following decades. usualy the standard was to use 2-3 legions for offensive duties. and this was all during times of no internal strife. once the Roman Empire got cought in uprisings and civil wars it compleately lost it's ofensive potential. so it's up to us to determine if 1000-2000 ISDs and 1-3 SSDs will be enough to defeat the UFP.
     
  22. Saquist Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,256
    Super Star Destroyers
    Executor Destroyed in Return of the Jedi.
    Eclipse
    Iron First Rose from beneath the Coruscant Metropolis Destroyed in the X Wing Saga
    Intimidator
    Executor Class-Anhialator:Admiral Gaarn destroyed by Crime lords.
    Executor Class-Knight Hammer- destroyed at Yavin Four. (this one I didn't know about)
    Lusankya Destroyed during the Vong War.
    Guardian Last of the Super Star Destroyers

    There have been sightings of others but Lusankya lasted the longest. Most once they were discovered suffered destruction at the hands of the Alliance or Republic.

    So currently I'm tracking at least 13 and all named have been destroyed except the Guardian which survived the war.

    I say they could risk another 2,000 ships...And I say risk because if they want to actually over whelm Star Fleet they'll have to at least match them ship for ship. But there
    s the speed issue. Those ships could cross the Federation in seconds to support each other. But if they launched 2,000 ships enmass they could easily take any objective...but once Star Fleet got it's fleets into position they'd have to settle for hit and runs. The ISD's can't hold up to Star Base level fire power or the Planetary weapons we've seen in DS9.

    2000 ships would be a desaster for the Federation Star Fleet would have to choose to keep Earth HEAVILY foritified with at least two fleets. That would cover Mars as well. Federation's sensitive areas...DS9 Already well foritified but would need a small fleet to defend the station from over whelming attempts. Vulcan would need a fleet. That's Four fleets so far. They'd have to force a conflict to where the other Five Fleets could take out many of their ships at one time.

    But then Star Fleet has the cloaked mines...so they may not have to worry about to many places once the threat has been identified and analyzed...but that would take a lot of time...It would be an effective sneak attack that takes out the Federation.
     
  23. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,447
    yes, this makes sence. if the Empire could strike without warning at 2-3 critical worlds using their hyperdrive, they would practicaly win. i don't think UFP could respond fast enough to save those worlds even if they had good planetary defences. a 4000 ISD fleet might be too much for them to handle. these 4000 ISDs would probably suffer heavy casualties from orbital platforms, planetary defences and starbases and would be doomed in later engagements with starfleet, however the political shock will cause UFP to surrender. Starfleet might continue the fight (since they apear decentralised) but UFP would be dead or at least wounded beyond hope.
    so this emphasises my question even more: can SW ships travel on uncharted theritory wih the same efectivness as they otherwise do?

    BTW while i was looking for tritanium data on the net i found i highly suspiceous value for the energy required to "vaporize" 1 cubic meter of it. DITL quotes th TNG tech. manual and comes up with 2.4 million MJ!!!!! i can't accept this figure. in comparison the same figure for iron is 7.6 MJ acording to Wong's site. it's 500000 times larger!!! such a material cannot exist!!! it must be wrong. besides the fact it is 21.4 times harder then diamond, do we have any other CANON data on tritanium?
     
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