Star Wars vs Star Trek

Discussion in 'SciFi & Fantasy' started by Pollux V, May 9, 2002.

?

Which universe would win?

  1. Star Trek

    227 vote(s)
    35.5%
  2. Star Wars

    268 vote(s)
    41.9%
  3. Spaceballs

    47 vote(s)
    7.3%
  4. Farscape

    12 vote(s)
    1.9%
  5. Dune

    50 vote(s)
    7.8%
  6. Stargate

    36 vote(s)
    5.6%
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  1. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,149
    Which is fine, as a plasma weapon is quite limited in scope for ship based warfare. Particle beam works just as well.

    Again, you misinterpret the data. The impact on the bridge is much less intensive than the ones that are shot. First of all the one that hit the bridge exploded just as if it was a stick of dynamite, the shot asteroids glow a bright white just before the visible part of the beam hits. Second they both expand quite quickly for the amount of material present just as if they were a vapor in space. FInally they bothe glowed for a short period followed by rapid cooling into dark gasses.

    Well, that would be presupposing the ship was in fact destroyed. I would point out that the mass of a Jem'hadr fighter is far less than a 70m nickel-iron asteroid. The speed of the impact was greater as well in TESB. FInally the effect was whole different, the fighter plough deep into ST starships but the asteroid EXPLODED on the surface of the lightly armored bridge tower.

    Okay so now you are proving that your brains took a vacation. The ISD was motionless? No. It is very clear that the ship is moving well in excess of it's own length ever second, just a little bit faster than the SSD behind it. The whole scene leading up to it proves this. Claiming it is not moving it tantamount to lying and admitting you are completely wrong.

    However I will point out your other statement of idiocy. In a head on collision the mass of both object contributes to the total damage. A disproportionate amount always go to the smaller of the object. However there are time where the large object can suffer more serious damage. Such as when placing strain certain extremities. If the ISD was a solid rock then the asteroid collison would hardly be measurable, however certain structures like the bridge tower are exposed to more danger as they are connected to the bulk of the ship by more narrow area.

    There is also no indication it is destroyed except the optical illusion of seeing a pattern repeated in a thinning gas cloud. So? If it is the avenger it took NO appreciable damage
     
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  3. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,149
    Okay, let's assume shields were down. It still means , by rule of weakest link that a physical impact of similar strength would cuase similiar damage. The anchor points of the shields have to be able to bear the brunt of any force that hit. When dealing with massless weapons it's easy. When stopping an asteroid collision it is entirely something else.

    And for your information, Wong is correct. Even is navigational deflectors could completely stop the progress of a Turbolaser bolt, the moorings for the projector would have to as well. The scene iof the Odessy being rammed proves it just does not have that capability if the laser produces 700 megatons or more.



    Funny, all the ships I have seen rammed have been rammed right in the largest, thickest part of the hull. Most of the time flying straight through. Even with shields up the Jem h'dar ships should have at least been slowed down. The only time they were is the ram on the Odessy where the fighter struck in the Main deflector array. Which we know form numerous mentions is explosive if struck hard enough. In that case it acted like reactive armor.
     
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  5. USS Athens Very Special Senior Member Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,265
    It wasn't the Avenger.

    Um "NO F*CKING LOST OFFENSIVE CAPABILITY!?!" Targeting scanners!?! Command crew!?! Listen to yourself. That's worse than taking out an ST ship's bridge.

    The weapons need targeting scanners, it's not all about the guns, you need something to guide the gun. Now I know that's very difficult for an extremist warsie like you to comprehend... but god TW, just realize sometimes just how stupid your posts are.
     
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  7. Saquist Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,256
    That's not all.
    There were three other fighter on Captial ship "collisions" in the Return of the Jedi

    The First was a Y-wing (no indication that there was any shield here) Very large explosion for a Fighter.

    The Second was a Tie Fighter against a mon cal cruiser...again a Much larger explosion that we've seen fighters go out in.


    The Third isn't even a confirmed collision. A damaged TIE Fighter appears to colide with the bridge tower of a ISD. HOWEVER if it is true...It was the BIGGEST TIE Fighter on record, at the same size as the asteroid from ESB!

    Obviously this is not the case the fighter merely blew up before it hit the tower. As a result we have no indication that the Cruisers have particle shields. Infact it is a fact that during the Yuuzahn Vong war designer creatures fired from Vong Cruiser Analogs called grutchins feasted on the hulls of ISD just as easily as the Falcon settled on the hull of the Bridge Tower. Not to mention that Jaina used her engine exhaust to burn them off while the shild were still up.

    No...ISD have no Particle shields.
     
  8. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,447
    that just makes no sence. why use them if they don't offer protection?
     
  9. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,447
    i said the tower got destroyed not the ship. i base my statement on the movie.
     
  10. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,447
    i advise you review ESB.
     
  11. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,447
    at worst that ISD got its tower blown to the etertnal hunting grounds. at some medium bad case the tower gor magicaly sparated (no evidence from on screen) and now you have hundreds of meters exposed inards of a ship jut begging to be fired at. at the best option your ship is fine and dendy but nobody knows it since it's top secret phasing cloak that hides the tower

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  12. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,447
    1. agreed
    if you payed atention that was my poiny exactly. but do take notice that particle beams are not massles either

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    2. man have you gone bannanas :bugeye

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    there is not enough "gas" to prove your claim. if 75 cubic meters of metal or rock gets turnet to superheated gas, we will see it from miles away. waht we see is glow=> small debries=> slow defragmentation. one last point if that thing got superheated it would not have cooled down in 0.1s.

    3.you want to tell me that a 70m fully operational, shielded, filled with anti-matter, EPS, warp plasma, torpedoes, and structural intefrity fields is less destructive then a rock. the only thing that rock has its kinetic impact. there is no telling what the AS would do.

    4. my brain may have take a vacation, but yours apears to have never been created in the firs place. Earth average speed is 107000km/h or 30km/s. the average asteroid speed is 30-50km/s. the speed of the impact (dictating the kinetic energy=(m*v^2)/s) will depend on the realtive speed diference. thuse a leedeng colision would ocur ate 0-20km/s, a head on at 60-80km/s and an angled impact would ocur at a speed depending on the cosinus of the angle. however from our perspective the Erth is motionless (so is the ISD since the cadar is focused on it) so the speed wwe will obseve an mesure will be the resultant relative velocity (either 20km/s or 80km/s). so from direct opservation we can freely estemate how fast was that asteroid when it struck the tower. and you call toyrself an engeneer?:shrug: i would not let you change a light bulb.

    5.if by optical illusion you mean what we see on screen then yes. actually the intere SW saga may be refered to as an optical ilusion, but then we'd had no bussines discussing it now, would we?
     
  13. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,447
    actually if he was right than it takes gt of energy to produce a 300 kt of equivalent effect. i call that lousy energy usage. and who said that the nav deflector could stop TL bolts? as for the other colission case, i simply do naot have enough data. analysing GCSs is easy. we have tons of blueprints and scematics. but analysinf a Vor'cha or B'rel is not that easy. besides, as i said, i would rather be hit by a rock then a warship.
     
  14. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,447
    maybe they are like Dune's shields, slow objects penetrate them?
     
  15. Saquist Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,256
    Perhaps, it would fit with Starwars' bizzare perspective on energy weapons.

    As pridicted TWSCOTT has retreated to insults when he doesn't actually get the math involved. Don't hate him this is his proven and unwavering nature.
     
  16. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    It's called hull forming. I believe it was first used by the Federation in the 22nd or 23rd century.

    The federation uses bubble shield configurations for times of peace, which protects a ship more from leaking (damage getting through the shields), and uses the hull forming ones for times of war, as seen in the Dominion War, and afterwards, where we see the Enterprise E, the Scimitar, and the Valdore using it.
     
  17. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    Sorry, we know that only the movies and the movie-books are canon. This hs been proven before, time and time again.

    Not that it matters. You fuck with time, and you get to say hi to the 31st century UFP, which is much stronger, and more powerful than any 24th century UFP ship. Given that they had a transwarp ship in one of their fight scenes, they most assuredly can even match the Empire in speeds.
     
  18. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    First of all, the shields were lowered when it was discovered that they were worthless against the phased poleron beamns. The captain ordered the energy from the shields to be used in the SIF and other systems.

    True, but the point is that Jem'Hadar fighters would likely be moving at full impulse; at least 1/4th the speed of light.
     
  19. SkywalkerJedi アスラン・ザラ ( Athrun "Alex" Zala ) Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,493
    It is Avenger, I checked all the facts. There is only 3 ISDs in pursuit of the Falcon: Avenger, Excutor, Devastator. Neither way, the ISD is not damaged, because all of them are present for the later battles. I believe it is Avenger.
     
  20. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    I have an idea, let's play a game.

    IT's called the scaling up game.

    First, you take the UFP phaser rifles.

    Kira claims that the Cardassain phaser has an outputof 4.07 megawatts, and two settings. She also tells us that the UFP version is weaker.

    Geordie and Data are testing a phaser, and we find that it has an output of 1.05 megawatts. This would seem to match Kira's statements, but to be fair, we'll assume that Geordi and Data weren't working with the phaser rifle at full power, so we can put it up to 3.05 megawatts. That would be a fair gap between the two.

    Strangely enough, the idea of the Cardassian phaser being stronger is silly; the Cardassian one only has two settings, so that means that it would be either

    A:
    Setting 1: Stun
    Setting 2: Overkill

    or

    B:
    Setting 1: Kill
    Setting 2: Overkill

    Knowing the Cardassians, it would likely be the later. However, it's also true that the UFP is far more powerful than the Cardassian Union. Thus, I suggest that its rather that phasers, being treknobabble weapons, may be able to do more damage with a lower output, if the weapon is advanced enough. What the cardassians need for a vaporization with a 4.07 megawatt weapon, the UFP might be able to do with 3.05 megawatts.

    But in any case, this isn't what I wanted to point out.

    The point is in another episode, we learn that 4.2 gigawatts will power a small phaser bank.

    Now, we take 3.05 and divide it by sixteen settings. That gives us 0.190625 megawatts per setting. That means that setting one will have an output of 0.190625, and setting two will have an output of 0.38125 megwatts. However, for this estimation, we'll use the Cardassian rating, just to be fair.

    Let's take a look at that

    1. Light Stun - can cause minor injury in humanoids; target may be rendered helpless for short period; usually non-lethal even with long duration blast.
    Output: 0.254375 megawatts

    2. Stun - short duration blast can render humanoid helpless or even unconscious; risk of injury is serious for long duration blasts.
    Output: 0.50875 megawatts

    3. Heavy Stun - humanoids are usually knocked unconscious from short duration blast; can cause serious injury; can kill when used for long duration.
    Output: 0.763125 megawatts

    4. Light Thermal Effects - extensive neural damage and skin burns to humanoids; causes metals to retain heat if applied for over five seconds; short duration blast can kill humanoids.
    Output: 1.0175 megawatts

    5. Heavy Thermal Effects - severe skin burns to humanoids; can penetrate simple personal force fields; short duration blasts are usually deadly.
    Output: 1.271875 megawatts

    6. Disruptive Effects - matter disassociates and deeply penetrates organic tissue; can heat objects; any contact by humanoids is usually lethal.
    Output: 1.52625 megawatts

    7. Disruptive Effects - kills humanoids; disruption becomes widespread.
    Output: 1.780625 megawatts

    8. Disruptive Effects - vaporizes humanoid organisms; chances of survival are slim, even from a short duration blast.
    Output: 2.035 megawatts

    9. Disruption Effects - medium alloy or ceramic structural materials over 100cm thickness begin exhibiting energy rebound prior to vaporization.
    Output: 2.289375 megawatts

    10. Disruption Effects - heavy alloy or ceramic structural materials absorb or rebound energy. 0.55 sec delay before material vaporizes.
    Output: 2.54375 megawatts

    11. Explosive/Disruption Effects - ultra-dense alloy structural materials absorb/rebound energy before vaporization.
    Output: 2.798125 megawatts

    12. Explosive/Disruption Effects - ultra-dense alloy structural materials absorb/rebound energy .vaporization appears within 0.1 sec.
    Output: 3.0525 megawatts

    13. Explosive/Disruption Effects - shielded matter exhibits minor vibration heating effects.
    Output: 3.306875 megawatts

    14. Explosive/Disruption Effects - shielded matter exhibits medium vibration heating effects.
    Output: 3.56125 megawatts

    15. Explosive/Disruption Effects - shielded matter exhibits major vibration heating effects.
    Output: 3.815625 megawatts

    16. Explosive/Disruption Effects - shielded matter exhibits light mechanical fracturing damage.
    Output: 4.07 megawatts

    Now, it takes about 150 megawatts just to vaporize a single human. This suggests that phasers are capable of doing more with less energy. At level 8, you can vaporize a human with 2.035 megawatts.

    Basicly:

    2.035 = 150 megawatts

    That means for every watt you put into a phaser, it is about roughly 150 megawatts for a normal DET weapon. That means a small phaser bank should have an output of 315,000 megwatts, or 315 gigawatts.

    And that's for a small phaser bank, like the one we see firing form the Defiant (it's just under the deflector dish, the little hole thing).

    Now, if we assume that one small phaser bank equals one array (that's fair enough), we get 315 gigawatts x 933 elements (main phaser array), we get 293,895 gigawatts, or 293.89500 terawatts. Lower end. Higher end, if we double it, we can get 587,790 terawatts. A sustained beam upon a ISD should reduce it to slag in no time.

    We also have the 78,000 terrawatt figure for the Romulan Warbird's disruptor cannons.

    The Empire on the other hand, is much lower.

    We saw in Phantom Menace, where the explosion wasn't much better than a hand grenade. Now, these are meant to be used in ship level fights, with fighters and bombers often dropping their payload onto an enemy ship. Now, this would match up if we took into the fact (as others have pointed out), the Empire doesn't usually have particle shields.

    A photon torpedo would be very effective in this battle.
     
  21. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    As shown above, the Empire is heavily overpowered by the UFP. Hell, even a handphaser is more deadly than what a Empirial fighter has canonically put out. I shudder to think what would happen if an X-Wing would go up against a UFP shuttle or even a UFP fighter.
     
  22. SkywalkerJedi アスラン・ザラ ( Athrun "Alex" Zala ) Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,493
    The Naboo fighters are crap.
     
  23. Saquist Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,256
    That maybe true but they form a critical link in the chain that confirms that typical firepower of Star Wars is extremely sub kiloton.

    Since a naboo fighter was taken down by a sub kiloton tank on Naboo we know the Fire power is nothing in comparison to Federation shuttle and Fighter craft.
     
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