Father of Kidnapped Son gets Revenge

Discussion in 'Free Thoughts' started by cosmictraveler, Jan 24, 2012.

  1. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    He who lives by the sword dies by the sword. In this case, a bullet to the head was far too quick and merciful. A deterrent factor needs to be established here- you destroy someone else's life/lives, then yours needs to be destroyed in turn, and you must be preserved to suffer through the worst of the worst so as to set an example for the next psychopath who might be getting ideas. I hear OJ Simpson finally got a taste of his own medicine in prison, and now he's starting to regret the manifold errors of his ways. Good, I hope he gets good medical treatment so he can spend plenty more years trying to survive in the jungle. Same should go for convicted gangsters and mafiosi- just because they turn 80 doesn't mean they're suddenly immune from getting their kneecaps smashed in and left to die from puntured lungs and eyeballs as they knowingly did to so many innocents back in their prime days.
     
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  3. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    http://www.apa.org/monitor/2009/06/revenge.aspx
     
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  5. Bells Staff Member

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    I will ask you this Arthur, if you heard your child crying in the night and found a naked person coming out of their room where they had been molesting your child, what would your first reaction be? The Australian couple who had this happen to them beat the individual to a pulp as he tried to escape, after having molested their 3 year old daughter in her bed and he had tried to stifle her cries in the process. Thankfully, her mother heard her and they went to investigate and found what they found. This man then threatens to kill your child and you and your spouse. I'll put it this way, if that was my child, he would not have made it out of my house alive. That is a surety.

    Oh can your moral indignation.

    I'm not buying it.

    I can assure you, my children's needs would be met first and foremost and if that means killing the person who raped them, then so be it.

    Pat me on the head? No. I could be charged with paying for the clean up of the carpet. And the person in the video was killed in the airport as he was being extradited back.

    But I can assure you Asguard, no judge or jury would convict a parent to a jail term if they killed their child's abuser, especially one who kidnapped their child and raped them over the course of a week.

    Lets look at the Morcombe case as a prime example. Do you actually think any court in this country would have charged and imprisoned his parents if they had killed the paedophile that kidnapped and killed their child? Hell no.

    As for the 'will of the country', ask anyone what they would do to someone who kidnapped and raped their child if they were given the opportunity. The answers might surprise you.

    You are either dim or just whining.

    I said if I knew with certainty.

    Or if I caught someone actually doing it.

    Really, is it that hard for you to understand?

    I have worked with a lot of police officers Asguard. Many of them are very close and dear friends of mine. You actually think this is not something we have talked about? You are naive if you believe this is not something we talked about in the sort of cases we were all involved with over the years.

    No.

    You don't know what I know and how I know it, Asguard. I'd suggest you drop your moral indignation. My children would never end up in 'State care' and I can assure with 100% certainty I would not even see the inside of a jail cell after I had been 'questioned' by the police.

    I have a right to ensure the safety and protection of my child. And if someone harmed them in that way, I would kill them. I have always stated that with certainty.
     
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  7. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    It is very illegal to kill someone who is already in custody. Maybe a jury would go easy on you, but it's still murder. Very different story if you catch the guy in your own house.
     
  8. traceyh Registered Senior Member

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    No shit! That wasn't my point.
     
  9. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    A few things come to my mind.

    1. How did the father know where and when the defendant was going to be passing by that spot?

    2. How did the father get his gun into the place, after all there are security devices and security personell there checking people as they enter.
     
  10. adoucette Caca Occurs Valued Senior Member

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    He had high level connections to the police dept (also likely related to the sentence he received.

    This happened back in 1984, and the scene appears to be on the street side of security anyway.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2012
  11. adoucette Caca Occurs Valued Senior Member

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    But the case that was presented, and to which you answered that you would do the same as, was not a case where the person was caught naked in your house, in the act.

    The justice system indeed makes allowances for when that type situation occurs.

    That is certainly not the case in the OP.
     
  12. birch Valued Senior Member

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    the problem with the law is it's not designed for justice, it is too arbitrary often giving tougher or longer sentences for lighter crimes and vice versa for heinous ones.

    people put down animals who are rabid or are a danger, then why not people? even if i was a pedophile, rapist etc who couldn't help it (though i think this is an excuse used by many), i would expect that real justice would be to put me down as i ruined another's life in a very detrimental way or perhaps more than one. i would be very disgusted and abhorred with myself and want to be if i couldn't or wouldn't control myself. of course sociopaths and psycopaths tend to not feel guilty but feel sorry for themselves so they don't have this opinion.

    i know this very well as i've dealt with one. they feel exceedingly sorry for themself and see everyone else as deserving of whatever for not controlling themselves. this logic wouldn't be so hypocritical except when it applies to them and what they are offended by, of course others need to control themselves. pfft.

    one crucial reason i noticed about sociopaths isn't that they really can't help themselves, it's that they 'can't help themselves' because they have completely selfish moral internal values which they really don't want to change. of course if you are like this, you 'can't' control yourself. but for some reason (snicker), they can when others are watching.

    i asked my sociopath why they did what they did (if this is considered wrong) and why they protected their own child. their response was (when cornered) that their child was 'chosen' (whatever that means) and worthy so would go the ends of the earth to protect them and even hunt down and kill anyone who would hurt them but because i'm not 'chosen' that i don't deserve it. he used a religious angle to justify it. do you see the hypocrisy but they don't care that another may not view their child as 'chosen' as well? lol. of course all these reasons are bs, they just are doing what they want by predation and defend against what they don't want. what makes them scum is they do this to innocent people who have not done anything to harm them.

    sociopaths are usually just innate liars and megalomaniacs motivated soley on their own interests with no regard to how any other living being feels (except for who they deem as worthy). they are just predators, plain and simple.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2012
  13. Bells Staff Member

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    24,270
    No it is not.

    But I can fully understand that father's frustration and why he did it and frankly, if placed in the same situation and given the same opportunity, I would react in the same way. I don't blame him for what he did. Not at all.

    The man he killed had kidnapped and raped his child.. a child he kept imprisoned in his home for a week. That kind of horror, for that child and that parent is not something that just goes away. He reacted as he did becaues he was angry and he rightfully wanted revenge on the person who had harmed his child in that way.
     
  14. Pandaemoni Valued Senior Member

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    3,634
    And you'd be okay giving every traumatized parent the right to kill the accused without trial? Could a stranger do the same thing, on your child's behalf?

    My problem with that is that this is precisely the moments when parents are least able to objectively weigh evidence, so a parent should understand that he or she is really the least able to objectively determine the strength of the evidence on which action is being taken. A random stranger killing the suspect is more likely to be objective than the parent, so the killing should be, morally speaking, more likely to be justified.

    Do we need to extend the principal? Obviously, if some bully is hurting my child, I can't kill him, but surely I can "rough him up" without getting the law involved. Right?

    I think the answer is "of course not". We all have emotional reactions in those cases, but the reason we moved to using disinterested juries (as opposed to the original English jury system in which juries were composed of witnesses and those familiar with the accused and the victim) is to take such biases out of it.

    I have no idea what I'd do in such a case (it's too easy to be "macho" hypothetically). I'd surely want to kill the suspect (without trial), and I might not be rational enough to recognize the danger of my own bias. That's why we have laws that do not permit such killing though, to help victims and those close to them realize that they should not take action. If I carve out an exception for myself in this case, then we should carve out an exception in any case where the killer was "really upset" by the crime.
     
  15. birch Valued Senior Member

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    5,077
    i think bell's logic is that the criminal system is not really just in how they deal with these offenders even with evidence and that taking justice into your own hands (when you do know the evidence), is what some might do and be willing to pay the price.

    another thing about pedophiles and rapists is that they view these acts as having an 'affair' with the other. for instance, a pedophile may view their assault as having an 'affair' with the child or teen and that it was mutual. this is of course a lie that even they are aware of but use it as an excuse to justify it.

    the fact the child or teen is less aware or even is intimidated is interpreted as mutual even when they know it's really not mutual. they also view just the sexual gratification aspect as mutual such as involuntary reaction. they violate 'who' the person is to just get what they want viewing them as objects ignoring that the other might not like the other emotionally and mentally or even that the way the sexual act is carried out is damaging to the other's psyche or sense of being.

    no one should feel sorry for sociopaths. that sociopath who said they would hunt down and kill anyone that harmed their child? they demand the law go by the letter of the law when dealing with them. even more despicable, when asked about punishment in the bible for wrongdoing, they said 'maybe' (with a grin) and waxed on about forgiveness (for them) and deceptively demonizing others for wanting justice as just spite against them, as if they did nothing wrong. see?

    i understand bell's reasons. those who harm others who haven't harmed them don't deserve leniency, especially to reoffend.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2012
  16. Bells Staff Member

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    24,270
    I have seen and know of enough parents and children who have killed themselves because of these kind of crimes and because the perpetrator gets out after a few years and re-offends. I understand their rage and frustration and anger and desperation.

    I know of at least one case where the father tried to commit a crime to get into the same prison where his child's abuser was held, after being imprisoned for a second time after re-offending upon his release, and his child his child was so detrimentally affected by what happened to him and the knowledge he'd done it to someone else that he killed himself.. his father tried to commit a crime to get to him in prison to kill him. I don't think you quite comprehend the kind of pain and horror involved for the victims and the families of those involved.

    Another father had been unable to even hug his young daughter because her rapist had forced her to call him 'daddy' and it scarred the child so much that she screamed in terror if her father held her or hugged her. He also tried to get himself in the prison where his child's rapist was being held.

    I fully understand where those parents are coming from and why they want to kill the person who harmed their children.

    If it gets rid of the scum? Sure, why not?

    State sponsored killing is more understandable for you than a parent wanting revenge?

    Trying to go to a ridiculous extreme?

    Indeed.

    Doesn't mean if given the opportunity, many would not take it.

    I grew a penis typing it.

    Do you think hating someone who raped your child is a bad form of bias?

    Then you don't really understand where I am coming from.
     
  17. birch Valued Senior Member

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    5,077
    good one. that is how rapist would think that someone hating them for what they did was bias against them but of course if someone raped them, it's justice if they hate the other or even seek revenge. very strange.
     
  18. Bells Staff Member

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    The point is that of course a parent is going to feel bias towards or more to the point, against someone who kidnapped and raped their child. It is normal to feel that way about that individual. To act as if it is a bad thing or to say that they could not judge their actions because of that bias is mildly insane for me.
     
  19. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    Bells to assume because you ard a parent you are better able to judge the guilt or innocence or an ACCUSED better than the police and the courts is a nuts attitude. lets say azaria chamberlin's dad wasnt with them when tge dingo took Azaria. Your argument says he should have been ok in killing Lindy EVEN THOUGH SHE WAS LATER PROVED INNOCENT

    secondly where does this "right to take the law into your own hands" end? What about the guy in the US who came home to find his wife in the car being "raped" by another man who he shot. Course it latter turbed out it was her lover and she had spotted the husband comming in and cried rape. Should they get away scot free too?

    And lastly what if the cops had shot the dad? How would that have helped his son? They would have been quite with in there rights to shoot someone firing a gun near them
     
  20. Search & Destroy Take one bite at a time Moderator

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    Coming from a small island where revenge is king - I respect the father's decision and am absolutely thrilled he did not go to prison. There was obviously no doubt to the father who the suspect was, and what damage he had inflicted on his son. No systems of law necessary to do justice here.

    Here are two more examples of vigilantism justice served from my island
    WARNING: LITTLE GRAPHIC:

    1. I was a kid and taking a shower. BOOM everything shook I thought it was an earthquake. I looked out the window and saw my neighbor running across my lawn. I put on some pants and ran outside to see the building a few houses up from mine had been bombed. Then I a few fellows on horses galloped next to my house and out of sight. The next day, the newspaper reported the bomb-victim had molested one of the horse riders cousins or something to that extent.

    2. There was a rape. The rapist was found dead a few days later in the middle of the street with his cock n' balls lodged in his throat. No one was ever arrested nor do I think a case was even made.

    ---

    In countries over here in Asia justice is a dish served without Law. Most of the time. If someone steals your money, you can hire thugs to steal it back. And that works a hell of a lot better than the police in the USA. Two friends of mine had to go this route and they had there money back in no time.

    In the USA I was robbed blind for a month, police had plates, prints, eye witness reports etc. And the thieves still managed off with $20k of stuff. Somewhere in Asia this is virtually impossible if you have a couple of connections, because the black-market is managed so well.

    But at the end of the day I'm with Asguard - I'd rather be protected by the Law than thugs.
     
  21. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    43,184
    This is a good point.
     
  22. Search & Destroy Take one bite at a time Moderator

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    Yeah it's an interesting point but not very good IMO. Luckily he was sneaky enough to avoid attention. If he can avoid attention enough to get the shot off, it's very unlikely any cop is going to shoot him. So that's that. He knew no cop had their gun drawn on him when he fired the shot. Honestly, I think he planned it out so as not to get shot himself.
     
  23. Bells Staff Member

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    24,270
    Nowhere near the same circumstance Asguard. You are twisting this around as your normally do.

    As I said, repeatedly, if I know with certainty.. Ie, if all the evidence points to that individual.. like the case in the OP where he had kidnapped the child and held the child at his house and molested him.

    The Chamberlain case is nothing like the cases we are talking about.

    Again, you are confusing this and twisting this around.

    Really, it's not that hard to understand. Even for you.

    But they did not.

    If you watch the video, they knew who did it and you can hear one of them say 'god damn it'. I suspect they knew or suspected something like that would have happened.

    Especially when you judge their reaction.

    By that point Asguard, his son was already recoving from hell. It wouldn't have helped his son.

    But they did not shoot the father. In fact, the father never saw any jail time. And frankly, I can understand that man's rage. And that is what you seem to have missed or failed to grasp in what I said in this thread.

    Certainly, they would have. But they did not.
     

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