The Evangelical Atheist

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by S.A.M., Feb 26, 2008.

  1. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    If you had read the book, you'd already know the answers. Sheesh.
     
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  3. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    SAM:

    Those were in the works long before Dawkins wrote his book.

    Do you think that wasn't there before?

    The God Delusion does not seek in any way to advance science.

    If you want to look at Dawkins' scientific work, I suggest you read The Extended Phenotype, or his papers in the biological journals, instead.

    You appear to be confused as to his aim in The God Delusion. He sets it out quite clearly at the start of the book. Why don't you read it?
     
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  5. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    The typical tendency is for one extreme to draw an opposite extreme response - and as a further interesting point - these two extremes are often practically identical.

    For instance - compare fascism and communism - they are at opposite ends of the political spectrum, but the social environment is practically identical.

    And likewise, compare the argument structure of Dawkins with that of Creationionists - they are practically at opposite ends in terms of ideology, but the intellectual propriety required to accept either is practically identical.




    There are two types of people in this world.
    Those who drive in wedges and those who try to remove.
    Both are associated with a long history ....



    pardon me?


    You some how missed his theme of religion preventing the evolution of scientific progress?
     
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  7. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    When I said that The God Delusion does not seek to advance science, I meant that it is not intended as a scientific treatise. It makes no new scientific claims. It contains little, if any, scientific investigation.

    To read it as a science book is to miss the point.
     
  8. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    And now?

    Do you think there was greater polarisation before Dawkins? I have been in the field for at least 10 years professionally and only in the last two years had religion become a discussion point in science, not politics.


    I've actually read all his books except Ancestors Tale and God Delusion. I read the GD in bits and pieces but frankly his thesis makes no sense to me. [I had the same issues with his memetic theory and also with his extended phenotype. I rather liked River out of Eden, though and Ancestors Tale, which I have barely begun, looks promising] Its one of the few books I read when I have the energy to sift through his specious arguments. I see a parallel with some of what I have read in Soviet anti-religion propaganda on Godlessness for example.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2008
  9. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    SAM:

    And now what?

    Which field? Biology?

    I'm not sure what you're trying to get at.

    It's a bit silly to presume you have a good grasp of what's in a book when you haven't read it, isn't it?

    As far as I can tell, his "thesis" in The God Delusion is primarily that religion has done more harm than good in the world, that there is no scientific evidence for the existence of God (as defined in the Abrahamic religions, in particular), that the apparent taboo on criticising religion is counter-productive, and that indoctrinating children into religions is a form of child abuse.
     
  10. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Has Dawkins created a better environment for understanding evolution in those people?

    Science. The religion of scientists is suddenly an issue, with theist scientists apparently not practicing science all the time, and the "real" scientists being naturalists. We have scientists getting on podiums discussing their beliefs.:bugeye:


    I've heard a couple of Dawkins lectures on the subject and frankly was not impressed with his viewpoint enough to want to wade through 400 pages of it. Does he not represent his viewpoints in his lectures?
    Sounds like the Soviet propaganda of Stalin's regime.

     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2008
  11. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    SAM:

    Died-in-the-wool Creationists have no desire to understand evolution. Nothing will change the mind of an extremist. Or, at least, its very rare for an extremist to change his mind. Especially when he can make lots of money by not changing it.

    Scientists have as much right to discuss their beliefs as anybody, don't you think?

    As for "real" scientists being naturalists, of course they are. Science can only investigate nature. It's the study of nature. Scientists have to be naturalists.

    Supernaturalism, whatever else it may be, isn't science.

    A lecture is like a sound-bite. You can't get the full depth of a complex argument in a 40 minute lecture.

    Well, no.

    Whether religion has done more harm than good, whether there is evidence for God, whether a taboo on discussing religion is harmful etc. are all questions that can be settled empirically. You can find evidence for or against each view, and discuss and debate. That's very different from propaganda imposed with the threat of persecution.

    Dawkins is hardly suppressing alternative points of view.
     
  12. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    So he's preaching to the choir?


    Is religion normally a topic of discussion in science?
    So Christian scientists or Muslim scientists are not "real" scientists?


    But in a lecture he focuses on the points he wants to make.

    Neither did Karl Marx. The persecution follows the ideology.
    As you see, the propaganda is identical.

    You can listen to him here to see how unconvincing he is in his rhetoric.

    BBC Hard Talk: The God Delusion : Part 1


    Part Two; Part Three

    The one example he could give of religious extremism, ie suicide bombing, has been debunked by research.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2008
  13. Repo Man Valued Senior Member

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    And what is the ideology? That science is the only way we have to separate the true from the false? That it never pays to be too certain of being correct, because new data may be found that may supersede the old? That observation and evidence trump mythology?

    When asked if he was willing to die for his beliefs, Bertrand Russell replied, "Heavens no, I could be wrong!" There is a fundamental difference between telling people to throw away dogma and think for themselves, and telling them what to think or face persecution. And people who want to cling to dogma are free to do so. I find it difficult to believe that Dawkins would have it any other way, even if it personally pains him that some choose to believe in nonsense in spite of the lack of evidence for it, and sometimes in spite of the overwhelming evidence against it.
     
  14. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Empirically, he himself is the evidence that his thesis is not scientific.

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    Besides, according to Dawkins himself, moderates are the cloak behind which extremists can hide, or does this not apply to antitheist atheists?
     
  15. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    SAM:

    No. He is asking those who are on the fence, and those who are not fundamentalist theists, to reconsider their beliefs about God and religion.

    No - by definition.

    But science can certainly examine concrete evidence put forward as evidence of religious claims.

    Why do you think that science and religion have to be exclusive? People manage to compartmentalise their lives all the time. When a Christian scientist is in church praying to God, he obviously isn't doing science. And when he is in the lab, he isn't doing religion.

    Karl Marx thought that socialism would be a natural progression in society. He didn't advocate violent revolution and suppression to bring it about, as far as I am aware.

    But yes, any ideology can be subverted for selfish ends. But if an idea is put to an evil use, it doesn't mean the idea itself is wrong, or even bad. Especially when the idea doesn't advocate suppression of others, or violence or hatred or intollerance. Unfortunately, many religions seem explicitly to advocate those things. Atheism does not, as it happens, because atheism is not a creed. Atheism in itself doesn't mandate a particular ethical position, or a particular attitude to other people who are not atheists.

    Debunked in what way?

    It is quite clear that many suicide bombers explicitly avow that they wish to die for their religious beliefs.
     
  16. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Why? Because as a product of an Anglican church and school he finds himself incapable of independent thought? Because everyone must avoid the labels that hold him back? Because the majority of fence sitters are latent terrorists?

    How does he distinguish between the acts of those who happen to be theists vs those who are committing violence for God? Because according to him, Stalin just happened to be an atheist, he would have caused the deaths of 20 million people anyway.

    With the theist population of the world holding at 80-85%, does he presume to analyze the motives of all those who happen to be theist as derived from religion while excusing those of the 15-20% who "just happen to be atheist"? How does he solve this confounding variable?

    By judging the beliefs of scientists?

    So when he is in the lab why is he defending his beliefs?
    Yup.
    And yet people who happened to be atheists have been the biggest murderers of the 20th century secular experiment. More, if Dawkins theory that most intelligent people in power, including priests and politicians are atheists.

    Empirically speaking, isn't that something to worry about?


    Thats a myth actually, or a meme, if you like.

    As the French philosopher Gaston Bouthoul argued three decades ago in a theoretical treatise on the subject, the "anonymous, unidentifiable threat creates huge anxiety, and the terrorist tries to spread fear by contagion, to immobilise and subjugate those living under this threat."

    Suicide terrorism is the most cost effective means of fighting an unequal war. It was started by Marxist groups in the 70s and until today they are the most effective suicide terrorists.
    Besides, if they are all theists and commiting suicide in the name of religion, why don't they all commit suicide?
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2008
  17. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Creating awareness of a long and increasingly festering problem is not the same as creating the problem.
    W's admnistration, just for one example, has been staffing its scientific, corporate, and judicial oversight agencies with fundie Christians for seven years now. And such practices did not begin nationally, with them.
    A few years ago fundie Christians in the US began to gain political power, in part by attacking "liberal elites", among which were included scientists and scientific education. It was the Religious Right in the US that first drew attention to the political and religious stances of liberals such as biologists and paleontologists and anthropoligists, and the various religious deficiencies of scientific textbooks or famous writings. This movement predates Dawkins writings on the subject. If scientists were truly not aware of this movement until two years ago - time to wake up and die right, as we said in my childhood.
    This strawman of yours is overdue for retirement.
    The facts behind the arguments have similarities - no surprise, the world being unchanged in many respects between then and now. The propaganda is hardly identical - nothing in Dawkins criticises religion for not agreeing with socialism or a command economy, for example. Karl Marx may not have anticipated state persecution by misusers of his theories (or he may have) - that doesn't make him wrong.
    Russell ? What thesis is that ?

    The paraphrase has missed Dawkins's point, but the question is still answerable: no, it would only apply to an antitheist atheist who belonged to a defined variety of atheists, among which were moderates and extremists. An extreme and militant Buddhist, for example, hiding behind a more moderate and reassuring Buddhist. Extreme and militant atheists in general cannot hide behind, say, Daniel Dennett - it works the other way: Dennett is exaggerated and spotlighted and misrepresented by his mere association in label with militant and extreme anti-theists he has almost nothing else in common with (see Chris Hedges latest ranting, in which Dennett (and Dawkins) is thrown into the same pile with people who want to nuke Mecca).
    You continue to misread Dawkins's argument. He blames none of the evils of religion on its influence over the powerful and few - he blames it for its grooming of the powerless and many. A bona fide life long atheist at the levers of the kind of power that religious - especially theistic - indoctrination can deliver to an authority illustrates Dawkins's argument agaisnt such indoctrination as well as a priest - or anyone educated to be a priest.
    So when someone points out that you have got it wrong, the possibility is worth considering, no?
    There are also parallels with Islamic criticism of Western religions - quite often rival religions make accurate observation of each other's nature.
    He makes that argument poorly, if at all. He associates religion with the problems of theism, and the distinction there is worth keeping in mind I think. It causes him to overlook or downplay large benefits of religion that do not ride on the supernatural assumptions or general attributes of deity - such as its ability to disentangle an entire society from Hardin's Tragedy of the Commons.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2008
  18. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    SAM:

    Because he regards religion as harmful, for reasons explained in his book.

    He listens to what they say about their motivations. People who commit violence for their God generally don't hold back in saying that's why they're doing it. Haven't you heard the cries of "Allahu akbar!" on every propaganda video of an Al Qaeda bombing?

    Who knows?

    What is clear is that Stalin did not cause all those deaths in the name of atheism. He sought power, pure and simple. He wasn't killing people for any cause other than to maintain and increase his own personal power.

    I'm not sure what you're asking.

    No. By judging the evidence. Like I said.

    If somebody claims a statue weeps because God makes it weep, that's a claim that can be investigated scientifically.

    If somebody claims that they can heal people by drawing on the power of God, that is another claim that can be investigated scientifically.

    See?

    What are you talking about?

    Who are you thinking of?

    The relevant question is: if suicide bombers did NOT believe that they would go to heaven and live in paradise with their God, would they still blow themselves up?

    What do you think?

    Because not all theists are fundamentalists. Many theists are wishy-washy theists. About 80% of Australians write down a religion on their census form, but 80% of Australians certainly do not attend regular religious services, or abide by the supposed tenets of their faiths. In fact, for many of those Australians, about the only time they think about religion is when they are asked what religion they are. Then they say "What are we again, Gerald? I think we're Roman Catholic, aren't we?"

    Those people are unlikely to blow themselves up for God.
     
  19. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Dangerous line of argument. I think many - possibly most - suicide bombers, including that majority recruited by jihadist Muslims through a shared religion, would blow themselves up without the reward of heaven.

    Sacrifice for the family, the tribe, the foxhole buddies, is its own reward.

    So while it is not a myth that most of these jihadist bombers are dying for their beliefs, it is probably not their belief in personal reward for themselves, but in the great benefit of their deaths for their "tribe" - in this case, fellow believers as identified by the religion, which is abetting (and benefitting from) the suicide.

    A belief system that fosters such sacrifice has obvious advantages, in its competition with other belief systems. For one thing, it's hard to drop or leave: do you want to admit the suicides of your friends - done for you - were just mistakes, and basically worthless wastes of a life ?
     
  20. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    iceaura:

    I didn't mean that the suicide bombers blow themselves up because they believe it will be a fast track to paradise. They blow themselves up for a variety of reasons, many of which you have mentioned.

    But my question to SAM still stands. Take away the belief in the fast track to paradise and then what?

    I'm not convinced that they would be quite as willing to sacrifice their one and only life for family, tribe and foxhole buddies, as you put it.
     
  21. Bells Staff Member

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    It is a very dangerous line of argument. But it does have a lot of merit.

    Think of it this way. If there was no reward of 'heaven', would they still be willing to blow themselves up for "family, the tribe, the foxhole buddies"? If death meant the end, no heaven, no spiritual world, just a mere end, would many still be willing to go through with the act? Or is the belief that there is something else out there a comfort to those who decide to blow themselves and others up for whatever cause? Would they martyr themselves without heavenly rewards?

    In August, 2001, the American television channel CBS aired an interview with a Hamas activist Muhammad Abu Wardeh, who recruited terrorists for suicide bombings in Israel. Abu Wardeh was quoted as saying: "I described to him how God would compensate the martyr for sacrificing his life for his land. If you become a martyr, God will give you 70 virgins, 70 wives and everlasting happiness."
    Source

    Why use the heavenly reward as an attempt to recruit 'martyrs' if it not something that the bombers would care about?

    Those who attempt to prey on people's beliefs in such a fashion are despicable individuals, in my opinion.

    There are probably many individuals who commit such crimes regardless of whatever may be perceived as a reward after their death, who may be desperate enough to even consider it, heaven or not. But there are also individuals who prey on victims and use the belief of a reward in heaven as an incentive and some unfortunately buy into it.
     
  22. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    So why do the Marxist LTTE blow themselves up?

    Read up on the LTTE. Same logic, same methods, same results
     
  23. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    which are specious.


    I also hear the cries of Allahu Akbar when they are having fun, does that mean that without religion, they would stop having fun? Saying Allahu Akbar in the middle east is like saying Jesus effing Christ in the west. Its part of the cant, jargon, slang. They say Allahu Akbar when they are arguing, does this mean they are arguing only because they are religious?
    http://akramsrazor.typepad.com/islam_america/2006/05/understanding_t.html

    He used anti-religious propaganda to do it.

    Is he speaking for all of them?
    Evidence for the supernatural?
    Is that what scientists who are religious are claiming? Are these the discussions that scientists are having about their beliefs?


    See the quote it refers to.
    Pick the biggest killers of the century and look at their beliefs. :shrug:

    Logically yes. Strategic warfare would indicate that guerilla warfare has always been practiced against a stronger enemy. Suicide bombing is a natural response to collateral damages.



    No only the ones who are most educated, secular and rational.

     

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