Star Wars vs Star Trek

What? You are going actually actually argue that a photon torpedo is more powerful than a Heavy Turbo laser? Sorry not happening. Your reasons for such comparison is ridiculous. On screen does not dispute 12.5 gigatons for SW. On screen also does not support anything more impressive than 20 kilotons for Star trek weaponry.


The difference is that SW fans spot you the 64 megatons a Photon Torpedo is theoretically worth, based on the M/AM warhead. Hell we assume your weaponry is 100% efficent. We assume that your Quantum Torpedoes are 400% to 500% percent as effective as Photons despite evidence that they are only doubly as powerful. Hell I'll even drop the SBBP idea, even though it is supportable by evidence on screen.

Based on info that makes the weapon more powerful than anything onscreen for Star Trek
Phasers X: ~20 megatons per second
Phaser XII: ~24 megatons per second
Pulse Phasers : ~24 Megatons per pulse 3 pulses per second, Pulse Phasers react differently to sheilds imparting 50% extra power draining the shield faster.
Photon Torpedoes: 64 megatons per torpedo
Quantum Torpedoes: ~200 megatons per torpedo

Based Strictly on what we see in the movies:
Turbolaser: Minimum of 300 megatons and possibly much much higher
Proton Torpedo: Minimum of 100 megatons and possibly much much higher

I highly doubt 10 quantum torpedoes would have a sizable effect on the Executioner. Even if they did all hit.


I will note that since nothing we see in any SW movies disputes 12.5 gigatons then the 12.5 gigatons stays as per canon policy.

 

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conjecture from canon is still canon.

 

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sexy...knock'em dead slugger.

 

Mind keeping your own "wanK" out of the discussion too or is that too much to ask?

 

Saquist, just...UGH!!!!!!

 

Roflamo!!!

 

You know, Blade kinda looks familar to me.......

Hey Blade which state are you living in?

 

However if visual evidence argues against dialog then visual evidence wins.

 

Here is the problem though:

The explosions of weapons fire from SW are much smaller than the ones from ST. Shield impacts in ST show far larger damage potential than the simple "bursts" shown in SW. Now, you can either try to claim SW shields are SO advanced they absorb 99% of the incoming energy (which is STUPID because why absorb energy that isn't even impacting the ship- and not all of a SW Weapons energy does so or else you would NOT see an explosion at ALL) OR ST weapons simply have a higher yield. The thing that really bothers me is that in SW, when fighting off fighters, the lasers explode in space NEAR the fighters. What kind of directed energy beam weapon has a "proximity detonation" setting?

Oh, and Scott- the Green bolt of the turbolaser is just that. The bolt. I have watched scene after scene after scene. I have found absolute ZERO evidence that the green bolt is a tracer or appears after the damage is dealt. Tell you're buddies at SD.net that they are seriously screwy.

Also, another thing to consider that was brought up by a few of my friends the other day- if SW weapons and shields are SO powerful, why does natural phenomanon have ANY effect on their ships?

Another point- what POWERS most star wars ships? Anyone? I'll tell you, and a great example is the TIE fighter- Twin Ion Engine. X-Wings, if I am not mistaken, use four Ion Propulsion Drives. SD's and even capital ships use large-scale ion engines, right?

Good, now we will know where your ships are at all times by tracking the eminating Ion Trails. It's been done in trek before, and an Ion Engine is an Ion Engine and, if I do recall, Picard regarded Ion Propulsion as "old, almost obsolete" by Federation standards.

Scott, let me ask you this. What comes first in a movie? Special Effects, or the Script? The script does. The Script is what Lucas first wrote and was the determining factor in the movie. If the script sucks, a movie will most likely fail. If it is good, it will quite possibly succeed. Special Effects are just icing on the cake. It isn't what the movie is, but it makes it look better. FX artists are not perfect- my idea of a big explosion may not be the same as someone elses. HOWEVER, reading the scripts you are told, quite plainly, of abilities and shortcomings when the dialogue says such things.

In other words, Scott, unless you are Mr. George Lucas yourself, you cannot say FX are superior to Script. It just doesn't work that way, so stop claiming it does UNLESS you can show that Lucas said it does.

 

Oh, BTW- Voyager, Season 3, episode The Swarm.

Voyagers shields were rotating at over 92 gigahertz and the shields didn't even groan much less give out. I would reckon that is not anywhere near their maximum amplitude. That is an immense amount of energy coming from such a small ship. Imagine what something like the Ent-E can do. You can determine the amount of power from such a number. I cannot remember off the top of my head (it's early in the morning) but we can assume a resistance of near infinity due to the fact that they are projecting the shield into, literally, empty space. Think of it like a Jacobs Ladder- the power requirements are immense. To hit an amplitude of 92 gigahertz with such a resistance... *grumbles* God I cannot remember the conversion to joules and a watts assuming a superhigh resistance.

 

Yes, yet you favor "wars-wank".

This is your own conception of religion talking. A god in Trek only means that he is unrestricted by the same limitations that humanoids are (death, mechanations, time, spatial placement etc), and has become charged with duties of the cosmos - it does not mean they have worshippers. The Q have stated themselves to be the keepers of order in the universe, and John De Lancie's Q has actually been an abberant member (see ST VOY: Death Wish for some details).

With respect to Guinan, we know not what her race's powers are. They may or may not match Q's in some regards...maybe they have the telepathic ability to cause Q pain, but not a machine? We know that the El-Aurians have a latent telepathic knack for regular humanoids, but why Q would be cautious of Guinan is anyone's guess. We have also not seen the Jedi create something from nothing. This is an illogical task, merely fuelled by your own abrahamic religious encounters.

He is a canon god, nuff said.

You assume much. You assume it is 2000 degree air. You don't know what metal the droid or the building were. It may have been 80 degree air. By your own argumentative standards, unless it is stated, you are assuming, (and I'd love to see how exactly you can visually see 2000 degree air - a numeric temperature value). And it is only impressive by your standards. Personally, I think travelling to the Big Bang merely on a whim is WAY more impressive (STVOY: Death Wish).

I have given a litany of other feats that various Q have done, inclusive of standing in vacuum, on a ship moving at speeds that would tear apart biological beings by virtue of being struck by cosmic dust.

See Star Wars Databank Hyperdrive. It is a method of travelling thru an alternate dimension (i.e. past the dimensions of distance-x, distance-y, distance-z, and time). Provide canon that states that this is an "alternate reality".

Further, if you equate 'reality' to 'dimension' (eg 'perception' rather than 'livable universe'), you cannot assume that they rip subspace. Subspace has not been used on Star Wars at any time.

Side point: Matter of fact, this Databank definition is SO sparse, it can be applied to Warp Drive as well

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Like I said, Geordi said the Enterprise would not survive. Further, other Trek characters have said the same thing in similar situations with their own ship.

Hold up...is this "visuals over dialogue" thing a loophole for you to assume stuff? Bear in mind that I was absent for a good half of this ridiculously long 309 page argument.

However, this strikes me as yet another contrived way to make Wars appear all powerful, since Turbolaser might actually mean just what it implies...a souped up laser cannon.

A pulse laser cannon, fuelled by different emitting elements (eg, not based on a 'ruby emitter' like present day) would achieve the visuals you see on-screen.

I also suggest that the extreme slowness of the pulses is a plot device, for drama. A particle weapon that gives a ship enough time to duck? Don't think so...

I suggest that proof is in a combination of variables included in both dialogue and visuals. "Visuals only" encourages conjecture, especially when plot devices are employed. Like the bazillion wattage you Warsies like to attain from a simple asteroid. This visuals thing only facilitates your own arguments where convenient.

Also if you employ visuals only, a lot of your previous arguments fall, for example the 'impenetrable' nature of trooper armor.

 

There is a documentary called Star Wars: The Legacy Revealed that aired a while ago on the history channel. In it, scientists actually explain many of SW's technologies. For example, a lightsaber is determined as being a large amount of plasma held inside a magnetic field. And we have created something similar to one, but the componets are huge. Scientists also determined that the shields, at least the ray shielding, is large amounts of plasma held together by a magnetic field. And the scientists also said that the turbolasers were plasma weapons. Also, they admitted that shields, lightsabers, and similar devices must use a colder version of plasma then we do. Otherwise, you get molten ships and deep fried jedi. Pretty much every thing that has the word laser in it in SW is some kind plasma weapon. there are exceptions though.

And Kittamaru, if turbolasers move slower then light because of a plot device, then why doesn't a Homing Spider Droids Main Gun shoot pulse lasers from its main gun? Wouldn't it be far more dramatic to give the heroes at least a chance to evade fire? The only real lasers in the entire series are those on the SPHA series of vehicles, LAAT/I gunships, and Homing Spider Droids.

And why would they use pulse lasers instead of beam lasers? Wouldn't the beam lasers move faster, be more accurate, and do more damage? And besides, saying their pulse lasers just to justify ST claims that shields are impervious to laser attacks is an old and tiresome claim by many ST defenders. Besides, even if they were pulse lasers, they would still move faster then light.

Personally, I think ST is geared towards the everyday person while SW seems to be for a more mature audience( Except for Jar Jar. I would gladly shoot him out of a cannon at a borg ship.). Plus SW deals with the ultimate evil. I mean, it is kind of hard to gain so much trust in your goverment,the largest and most powerful ever known, that you win the election to leader in a landslide, while you control a massive rogue faction, engineer a war designed just to rid your goverment of a kind of people, and then turn said goverment from a democracy to a totalitarian dictatorship/monarchy that controls the galaxy and is not afraid of murdering its own citizens just to test a weapon. The closest you can get to that in real life is Hitler. And even then, he didn't conrtol another goverment that he used just to destroy another kind of person. And Palpatine had the entire war planned out from the beginning of his time as a senator.

I can just tell I'm going to be bitched at and flamed by Kittamaru. So a pre-emptive cookie to Kittamaru.

 

Not argue. Contradict perhaps.
And yet there are unknown outstanding variables that may explain why.

 

This is not canon. For the purposes of this discussion, it seems that the Warsies have imposed canon and it has been accepted.

Not canon. These unnamed scientists do not work for LucasFilm. They cannot declare canon for the work. They can only speculate on how to achieve similar weaponry.

I imagine that this plot device thing has been placed as a loophole strategy.

Pulse lasers would be more efficient in terms of power consumption and heat dissipation. The "blank spaces" between pulses of a particle weapon would not be enough for a target to recover.

The same way that the argument "the turbolasers are a quingtillion yummywillion megawatts, so no shields can stop them". I have shown TW canon evidence that Trek shields have the potential to be remodulated to withstand immense pressure even on the smallest ships. He refuses to accept, based on a single Galaxy Class starship being surprised by a being with extraordinary abilities.

Riiiiiight...ST is all sciency and explains technical stuff, whereas SW has "the Force", big light swords and beepy dustbin-shaped robots...and SW is for the mature audience? Please. Give me a break.

In my opinion however, any fictional genre is for anyone who has the capability of enjoying it.

What does this have to do with anything?

 

aie

 

Actually Ent-D, Halo brought up some good points. I have often theorized that they used plasma-based weapons, but had no way of figuring out how- the giant capacitor bank on the turbolasers, the charging sequence of the SuperLaser, even the way lightsabres collide contradicts that idea. I know it would be possible to make a lightsabre via a contained plasma discharge, but how would they impact one another and remain solid? Wouldn't the containment fail?

Particle and Ray shielding via contained plasma is possible, but that would rely more on the destruction of incoming weapons fire and the absorption of energy weapons more than deflection because, again, it wouldn't be truly "solid".

 

No, they collide because the magnetic fields of each prevent the other lightsaber's plasma from penetrating. I hope that makes sense. So you get a sensation of the beams being solid. There is also the possibility that the magnetic fields cancel each other out, which would explain why you see a bright flash every time they connect. That flash is the plasma that is released during the connection. Granted, its a very small amount of plasma, since only a small amount of the beam's are touching each other. This also explains why, during lightsaber duels, the duelist always try to force their blade onto the other's. Perhaps their trying to break through it?

I try to be as polite as possible online, but sometimes, when you see what someone says to another, you tend to get a very bad first impressions. I guess that your thing with Scott should not be considered representitive of your attitude towards anyone who decides to make an argument that might be against what you say. I am sorry if I offended you in any way, shape, or form.

And I found something out about SW shields. They can drop a part of the shield locally to let things in or out. So this kind of re-vitalizes my Alderaan particle shield thing.

I recently watched an episode of the newest ST series, and it showed a plasma storm that the Enterprise was trying to get around. The Enterprise was struck repeatedly by lighting like effects, making me question as to wheter the shields of that era of Enterprise ( There way too many damn ships in ST named Enterprise.) were resistant to plasma. IF the shields of Federation ships are resistant to plasma weapons, then there is a similarity between SW and ST shields. SW guns can bring down a ships shields given enough time, but are extreamly effective against the hull of the ship. That would explain the need for shield breaking weaponry such as Ion cannons. If ST plasma weapons do similar damage to SW ones, then we can get a good idea of how long certain ships would last against each other.

And I tend to refrain from statements that can be summed up as being " the explosion is small, so it must be weak" or " The explosion is big, so it must be powerful". Since we never see one of each sides ships in real-life you don't really have much of an idea about how big one is. The one exception to this is the N-1 Starfighter prop that LucasFilm donated to a museum in England. It like seeing holes in an A-10's body on TV and thinking " Hm, the holes are small so it what shot it was weak". I have seen an A-10 in real-life. They are huge planes( about as long and wide as a regular limo). What seems small on TV or in movies probably is much bigger then you think. I have seen a fully loaded space shuttle and the Saturn V rocket up close before. A corvette in SW is roughly about the 3/4 the length of the Saturn V rocket. And those things are easily about 60 stories tall. So think of a Saturn V rocket with the area forward of the part that it starts to slim cut off. That would be about the size of a corvette in SW.

Basically, a explosion on a small ship seems large because of the ships size. The opposite goes for large ships.Judging a weapon by its explosion on a ship is inaccurate of the weapons firepower. Even the canon lengths for each sides ships doesn't paint a very good image of their size.

I truly hope that I didn't offend anyone. I refrain from personal attacks unless someone makes one against me. And I try my best to prevent myself from accidently setting flame bait.

 

Ah, but the problems is everything in ST is superconductive.

However Gigahertz is not a measure of power, it's a frequency.Hertz means cycling one persecond. 92 gigahertz would be 92,000,000,000 times a second the shields flickers one/off. thus you could have one watt flowing at 92 gigahertz

 

First of all the majority of captial ships in SW are MUCH BIGGER than their ST counterparts. So of course the pyrotechnics look smaller in comparison. Second this can be explained as SW shields and hulls absorb much more of the energy before producing an explosive effect. FInally, the larger shield interation of ST ships just proves it takes more of the shield to repel the attack.

Aso for you noticing that the Turbolasers seem to have a flack setting, well then that disproves them being lasers, doesn't it?

Did you see me agree with them on that? Besides the point was brought up by ST fans about why damage appeared before the bolt hit. I personally don't agree, but hey delusions abound.

If you notice they only worry about large asteroids at high speed, and impacts with celestial bodies in hyperspace.

True that gives thrust, now imagine the energy needed to propell an SSD at 1000 km per hours.

Star Wars also has Gravity drives which are used when high speed is not a requirement.

Listen, numbbuts, suspension of disbelief here. meaning as far as you are concerend there was no script and there was no special effects. However I will say what everyone else already knows. The finished movie is the product is the canon

Finished movie trumps script. After all if the script said one thing but Lucas had the movie show a different thing, movie trumps.