Man Beheads Wife in 'Honor' Killing

I'd give most people a parley if they show hostility, not a Muslim if they show hostility. Muslims historically(last 200 years anyway) show no ability to be reasoned with in a disagreement. Other groups may or may not, I might at least call out "Hey let's be friends...", before opening up on them.

Yes it is a prejudice, but hey at least I'm honest.

EDIT: FUCK ISLAM

 

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It doesn't say you should free a slave. It says freeing a slave is a righteous deed. That does not mean that keeping a slave is bad. IIRC giving money away is righteous as well - keeping money is not, therefore, bad.

As you know, the Janizaries were not only, or even largely, captured POWs. They were also enslaved male children taken as tribute from vassal peoples.

And of course such enslavement was not "novel". No one accuses Islam of inventing slavery. We merely, and against some very odd and surprisingly vehement opposition, insist that slavery was common and standard and widespread under Islamic governance for many hundreds of years.

The West defines slavery in such a way that every Western history textbook recognizes the existence of slavery in old Rome, old Greece, old Egypt, old China, and the old Ottoman Empire. Not everyone captured by the Ottomans, as they spread Islam and took slaves at swordpoint throughout the region, became a slave. Slaves were a category of people.

And the West did not always think of slaves as subhuman, black, etc. That came later, and in response to a change in Western thinking: the West, or very influential groups within it, came to think that enslaving human beings was wrong. Not that freeing them was righteous, but that keeping them was evil. But this way of thinking conflicted with greed and need, and so a rationalization was born: the not-quite-human could be enslaved.

Such rationalization has never been necessary under Islamic imperial governance.

That is not obvious. It is your interpretation, and we have established your lack of accurate information about what is acceptable under Islamic governance in various places.

 

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I agree with you whole heartedly. Talk about hyprocrisy

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As if 'owning' another human being is ever justified...

 

SAM, please respond to post #274 since you were so intent on condemning me for my OP and trying to make me out to be a racist or Muslim-hater while at the same time condemning the country I come from based on stereotypes as well as making hypocritical statements that you so readily denounce others for and accuse them of making.

 

indeed. There is a great deal of difference between offering a bounty for a POW and throwing them into Gitmo or making them unpaid chattel
and making a POW into an emir or offering them the opportunity to serve in your army.
Do you disagree?
I will agree though that in principle slavery is deplorable. but using a persons race, colour, religion or ethnicity to denigrate them or consider them subhuman is worse.

 

You expect me to have an opinion on why you decided to go with a media opinion of a sterotype as an excuse for domestc violence that was never utilised by the proponent of the crime?

I fail to see the point for your pointless enterprise other than the one I have outlined.

 

You may be honest, but it's not a credit to your character

It's your credibility.

But, hey, I understand. It's a hell of a lot easier if you just don't bother with all that troublesome thinking.

 

Then if you've read the history of the Jannisaries, you'll know the lengths that parents went to, to get their children enrolled in this "prestigious" group?

who were these westerners who did not consider the slaves as subhuman? The Greeks? The Romans? The Crusaders?

 

Beg to differ. Enslaving me, for example, is considered worse by me than considering me subhuman and leaving me alone.

A good deal for the blighted children of a subject and oppressed people is not the same as a good deal for free men and women. And they didn't start out prestigious - just slaves.

The Vikings come to mind. In general those who enslaved their own or ethnically related people. The invisibility and erasure of slave ancestry, as a matter of little importance, is common in many Western cultures that are known to have held slaves not so long ago. Many Scots and English and Swedes and Norwegians and Swiss and Germans and Welsh and French and so forth must have descended from slaves of the Gauls and Vikings and Romans, but no trace remains.

The rise of the necessary rationalizations for the industrial slavery of the colonies in the face of the Enlightenment created something new in the way of evil, apparently. But the point - that the Islamic empires needed no such self-justifying myths to hide the reality of their slaveholdings - remains.

 

And yet, once again, you completely fail to acknowledge anything beyond what your ignorant biases make you completely blind to. Obviously you are someone who only sees and hears what they wish to and would rather attack and/or accuse because you are unable to do anything else and yet feel justified in accusing others of doing the same. If you had actually taken the time to read anything I posted and had the ability to comprehend anything of what I said you would realize that it is you who is the hypocritical racist, not me.

Sad, really. You don't strike me as a stupid person, but your defensive demeanor makes conversation with you completely pointless.

If you can't understand the difference between quoting a media opinion in order to spark discussion and agreeing with one, then obviously your opinion in such conversations is meaningless because it is so biased that you can't even stick to the OP, let alone discern the meaning of it

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And, by the way, if my OP was such a pointless enterprise...why are you still discussing it?

 

Like I said pick up any book on the subject.

 

@ ice:

any source on the enslavement of own peoples?

Re: rationalization, or lack thereof.

IMO I think this is due to two circumstances. One is the presence of fatalism or karmic influence in the eastern narratives. A second, is the absence of racial ethnic or religious lines in the practice. When the Sultan himself dresses as a Janissary and collects his wages in uniform while standing in line with his "slaves", when he his troop is highly paid, accorded privileged status and forms one of the elite of the fightng troop always led by the Sultan, it's hard to imagine a civil rights movement coming up among these disenfranchised slaves.

It's ironic that the Jannisarry system was forcibly dismantled because they had too much power, and killed any Sultan they could not control

 

"slavery claiming the sanction of Islam is documented presently in the African republics of Chad, Mauritania, Niger, Mali and Sudan."

"In 2003 a high-level Saudi jurist, Shaykh Salih al-Fawzaan, issued a fatwa claiming “Slavery is a part of Islam. Slavery is part of jihad, and jihad will remain as long there is Islam.”[115] He attacked Muslim scholars who said otherwise maintaining, “They are ignorant, not scholars ... They are merely writers. Whoever says such things is an infidel.” At the time of the fatwa, al-Fawzaan was a member of the Senior Council of Clerics, Saudi Arabia’s highest religious body, a member of the Council of Religious Edicts and Research, the Imam of Prince Mitaeb Mosque in Riyadh, and a professor at Imam Mohamed Bin Saud Islamic University, the main Wahhabi center of learning in the country."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_slavery

Sorry for the repost but I just wanted to make sure with all the side bitching that it is established that Slavery is currently practiced in islamic nations and rationalized by noted islamic scholars as being justified by the koran.

Whatever everybody else did once upon a time, no modern country still practices slavery outside of islam.

Even if the koran says you should daily give your slaves lollipops, slavery sucks.

 

"no modern country ...practices slavery"

Look again. The entire system of debt used under colonialism is now practised on a global scale.

They've just evolved in semantics

"noted islamic scholars "

clueless

 

Uh, hello?

The Romans had a couple of gladiator rebellions, and arming slaves has often led to problems - one reason Caribbean and US plantation owners forbade it.

http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/thralls.shtml

How do you think the Islamic slaveholders got their European slaves?

 

I would agree that every time you're caught bullshitting, you invoke Gitmo.

 

swarm, you are just a Hindu fundie. Get a life. Tell me what Hinduism talks about concerning the place of Dalits and Non-Hindus (yavana) in society.

So far no one on this thread has been able to provide any source which allows slavery in Islam. This proves without a doubt that the rhetoric of some people is just based on racism and hatred of Muslims.

Prophet (blessings of Allah and peace be upon him) said: "There are three categories of people against whom I shall myself be a plaintiff on the Day of Judgment . Of these three, one is he who enslaves a free man, then sells him and eats this money" (Bukhari and Ibn Maja).

More info: http://www.jamaat.org/islam/HumanRightsBasic.html

 

But the gladiators weren't fighting the Romans to emphasise their power over them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissary

I always thought it was from the Greeks who enslaved the Slavic population?