9/11 Conspiracy Thread (There can be only one!)

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience Archive' started by Stryder, Aug 3, 2007.

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  1. Headspin Registered Senior Member

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    watch from 4 minutes 30 seconds part 5 and part 6

    nanothermite found in the world trade centre dust:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjAviEG20dg&
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=300WYhC6KQI&e

    so how can you say "there is actually no such evidence", this is just denial, or did you simply not get a chance to see the above video clip yet?
     
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  3. MacGyver1968 Fixin' Shit that Ain't Broke Valued Senior Member

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    Here's a stoner thought:

    I wonder if Alquada members read "Truthseeker" websites and get pissed off? "

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  5. KennyJC Registered Senior Member

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  7. KennyJC Registered Senior Member

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    This is actually really interesting...

    Not only do you think that there is a conspiracy on the part of the government, but you think there is a conspiracy on the part of science. I find the latter much more unbelievable than the former.

    A word of advice: Get your evidence peer reviewed in a respected scientific journal and that is the first step for getting consensus.

    Until then, stop using the "evidence" put fourth by a handful of kooks.
     
  8. Headspin Registered Senior Member

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    "conspiracy on the part of science" - a very puzzling statement, science is about discovery, that means that at one moment in time something is not known and at a later time it is known, you can look up the definition of science if you're not too sure. Your logic seems to suggest that you believe there is nothing more to discover. That's a very arrogant position to take, almost god-like.

    The scientific community can be politicised as they are largely employed by government and heads of scientific organisations are appointed by government. NIST itself is an agency of the US Commerce Department, its head was appointed by Bush in 2001 and sits in his cabinet.

    10,600 Scientists Condemn Political Interference in Science. Signatories include 52 Nobel Laureates, 63 National Medal of Science recipients, and almost 200 members of the National Academies of Science. Do you think the government will interfere in matters of global warming and such like, and yet they wouldn't interfere with scientific issues concerning 9-11?
    http://www.ucsusa.org/news/press_release/10600-scientists-condemn.html

    So did you actually view the video clips yet?

    from 4 minutes 30 seconds part 5 and part 6

    nanothermite found in the world trade centre dust:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjAviEG20dg&
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=300WYhC6KQI&e
     
  9. Headspin Registered Senior Member

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    I prefer the scientific method over inquisitorial McCarthyism.
     
  10. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    But he does say the metal was softened. It warped. In an open-area fire, without additional burning from other sources. This is the "smoking girder". Done and done.

     
  11. shaman_ Registered Senior Member

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    So Headspin will you clarify this for me. Originally Jones said he found elements in samples sent to him that were the results of thermite. It wasn't actual thermite just elements that could potentially lead to thermite. This was his explanation for cut steel. Amusingly he provided a photo as evidence that was almost certainly steel cut as part of the clean up.

    Because of his flawed science he lost his job as he was an embarrassment to his university.

    Now you are claiming that he has samples of actual nanothermite, not just a precurser. Is that correct? I jumped around the video but it wasn't clear. If so where did these samples come from? Did he not see this earlier or did he get them later? Why doesn't he give them to a appropriate scientist who isn't isn't considered to be a joke? Did jesus really visit america? Why hasn't he submitted the results to all the relevant peer reviewed journals? Isn't it strange that the story keeps changing?

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4997804576359751731
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2008
  12. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

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    6,706
    Well than this is going to be fun.

    First off. The reason why you get a floury texture of debry of a plane is simple. When a car going at 50 mph hits a solid building, chunks fly off, huge chunks. When a plane going 500 mph hits a solid building, the plane efectively ceases to exist, it is ripped to pieces, and i dont mean like a few meter long pieces, i mean quarter sized pieces. So the holy conspiracy of the planes hitting the wtc not actually being there, thats simple physics.

    Also lets remember that it is NOT diesel fuel, jet fuel is a totally different solution, it is a very high grade form of fuel that burns at around 2,000+ degrees in each engine. And thse engines arent even getting that much. Now imagine if all of those thousands of gallons of fuel were to be set on fire at once. Hitting 5000+ degrees would not be hard.

    Also the whole C4 bomb theory. No way. Little do many people know, C4 is the safest explosive out there. That is because there are two things that will ignite, electricity is one, and the other is a combination of pressure and heat. If you were to light some C4 it would just burn a little quickly like a match. It would not detonate. Now since there was no pressure to set it off in the building, and most certainly the planes would have shredded any form of electrical detonator, there is no C4.

    The reason there is an irregular fall pattern is a combination of many factors. One is the fact that the steel only melted around the impact site. Scientists who make a claim of the irregular fall pattern is treating it as if all of the steel had melted. So when it started to fall it would speed up and slow down because the lower it got the more steel there was for support.

    There is no conspiracy behind september eleventh.

    Once more it is jet fuel, not diesel, natural gas, petroleum, or normal gasoline. It is very heavily refined and rather expensive. And several thousand gallons of it like in the airplane will melt through steel.
     
  13. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Another question: a day after the attack, Jones says someone sent him samples of dust and debris for analysis. To Jones. A fellow, according to Wiki, whose interests were:

    His current work was all on energy issues. Why exactly is someone sending him pieces of a collapsed building which is clearly an engineering issue? He'd been out of that work for 15 years before 9/11 and in Idaho, not New York State. This doesn't sound right at all.
     
  14. KennyJC Registered Senior Member

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    It's been 7 years, and Stephen Jones is the best you can do? Let me tell you something, if he ever bothers to try and get his work peer-reviewed, he would get laughed out of the scientific process. At least if he tried to get peer-reviewed outside of truther websites in something a little more... say... scientific? Then that'd show he has some conviction in his work. It would also be great to see his work debunked by the experts.

    NIST is not the only organization with highly regarded civil engineers.

    You can't seriously tell me that truthism hasn't infiltrated science because of politics. You do science a great disservice by making that statement. If there was evidence to the truth movement (I mean real evidence), it's ridiculous to assume that science would stand by and let the government get away with the greatest crime of the century. Not only science, but the media would love to get their teeth into the whole thing IF the truth movement legitimately had something to offer.

    And did they succeed in covering up global warming? Ah, no. There is worldwide consensus on global warming. Do you think they can silence or derail the scientific community on matters regarding 9/11? Hundreds of thousands of experts at the top of their field who would be relevant to the collapse of the WTC and all you have is a handful of people who barely have any relevant expertise.

    You know what; Stephen Jones has been debunked so much that it's not even worth reading what he has to say anymore.

    I'll say it again... Until he gets peer-reviewed in a respected journal, I'm not interested in his bullshit.
     
  15. Headspin Registered Senior Member

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    496
    You are completely ignoring the science, why?

    Aside from the massive 1500 Celcius temperature required to melt iron which would not have been attained in the wtc fire, the significance of finding previously molten micron sized iron spheres containing iron, aluminum, oxygen, potassium, silicon is that they could not combine naturally from a collapse from steel beams and aluminium cladding - that is obviously an absurd proposal. And remember - these molten micron spheres made up 5-6% of the wtc "dust", that is a huge quantity! by weight it is tons of molten iron.

    "This rapidly explains Dr. Jones' "red chip/gray chip" item also."
    I don't think so, can you explain why you think the observations reported by Jones are explained by anti-corrosion paint?

    6:20 Kevin Ryan has ruled out paint using Fourier transform infrared spectroscopy analysis (FTIR)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjAviEG20dg&

    4:43 "...unreacted commercial nanothermite, I had a hard time getting Frank Greening to believe me on this, but it is true"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=300WYhC6KQI&e

    "we know it is ultra fine because we have looked at the finest scale we can reach in the electronmicroscope we have, we still see iron and aluminum, we can't see them seperately, this is a very fine powder, its called nanothermite"

    he says they looked at 25nm and still could not distinguish between iron and aluminium, below 25nm nanothermite is explosive.

    0:40 - the red side of the chip has "the same chemical signature as commercial thermite", therefore in all liklihood the red chips are a thermite compound.

    when a laser beam is fired at a sample of this stuff, it incinerates and gives off massive heat.

    I am not interested in personal attacks on Jones, which only demonstrates you recognise the weakness of your own position.
    "When you have no basis for an argument, abuse the plaintiff" - Cicero
     
  16. Headspin Registered Senior Member

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    496
    No that's inaccuarte. in 2005 he had heard of the molten steel at the world trade centre from witnesses and first responders. he began studying it and in 2006 he was sent a molten metal sample from a piece of wtc steel. using XEDS he found it to be composed of the elements iron, aluminium, sulphur (and from memory other smaller amounts of manganese, potassium, copper and oxygen). this he hypothesized was thermite residue - which is the molten gunk produced from a thermite reaction. In 2007 he was sent a dust sample which was found to contain molten iron-alumino spheres, with other unusual elements. In 2008 he has now recieved 4 samles of dust which corroborate each other. USGS and RJ Lee also confirm the molten spheres but they have not studied them. In 2008, Jones has discovered nanothermite "chips" in the wtc dust as discussed in the 2 video clips.

    if that is the firefighter picture, it is not known when the picture was taken. He did not present that as evidence, it was presented to illustrate a hypothesis in an early presentation.

    you have been on the debunking sites too long. that is simply not he case. A professor does not get fired for "flawed" science. The academic world is not run by nazis. He retired because of political pressure put on BYU.

    I don't know how you could have missed it, it was pretty obvious in the 2 short video clips. see my post above.

    from the video clips:
    1st sample collected from apartment 1 week later
    2nd sample collected 3 days after event.
    3rd sample collected 1 day after
    4th sample colected on 9-11 within 20 minutes of towers collapse
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjAviEG20dg&
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=300WYhC6KQI&e

    he has had papers published and peer reviewed by relevant journals:
    http://www.bentham-open.org/pages/content.php?TOCIEJ/2008/00000002/00000001/35TOCIEJ.SGM
    http://www.bentham-open.org/pages/gen.php?file=35TOCIEJ.pdf
    http://www.springerlink.com/content/f67q6272583h86n4/
    http://www.springerlink.com/content/f67q6272583h86n4/fulltext.html

    I don't know what you mean by "keeps changing", investigation towards discovery is a process of change, unless of course you have the conclusions prior to investigation!

    ...and the clip you used to make out jones didn't have anything peer reviewed was from 2006, barely a year after he started studying 911. from what i can tell the debunkers and most of the official theories have never been peer reviewed or published, and certainly none were before 2006. so stop with the double standards here! not to mention continually raising the bar and moving the goalposts.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2008
  17. MacGyver1968 Fixin' Shit that Ain't Broke Valued Senior Member

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    I was talking with "one tooth Joe"..the homeless guy with exactly one tooth and one leg that hangs outside of the 7-11 begging for beer money...and HE says thermite wasn't used.

    Sources of info mean everything.
     
  18. scott3x Banned Banned

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    How did 'one tooth Joe' reach such a conclusion? Did he pour over the evidence or did he come up with his theory a little before passing out? You're right; perhaps sources of info aren't everything, but they certainly mean quite a bit; you may consider listening to more informed sources

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    .
     
  19. scott3x Banned Banned

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    I sincerely doubt that'll happen. However, I do believe that for a while now we've been putting them on the defensive. The official story is so full of holes it's hard to be in any other position when it comes to defending it, especially against people who are dedicated to revealing the truth...
     
  20. scott3x Banned Banned

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    God, that so needed to be said. Steven Jones as well as many others (the producer of 9/11 mysteries and myself included) originally believed the official story. It was only after a careful examination of the evidence that we began to see that the official story didn't hold water.

    Perhaps if the republicans are swept from power in the coming elections, the government will investigate what happened on 9/11 a little more seriously. Obama seems to have taken the 9/11 truth movement a little more seriously. But I'm not holding my breath. There's an old saying and I think it applies here: if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself. The government wouldn't even have done their (very poor) 9/11 comission if it hadn't been for people who insisted it be done. I also believe that many of the other investigations they did were also instigated by people who still remained unconvinced by the official stories (or non stories, as WTC 7 was for a while).

    I firmly believe that one day, people will realize that 9/11 was an inside job, just as most people now realize that the burning down of Germany's Reichstag was an inside job, and that both were done for the same reason; to get the people in those countries to support repressive regimes bent on war. And yet, even today, the true culprits of the Reichstag fire is under debate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire). Seriously, how many people here even know that Bush's grandfather helped Hitler's rise to power? (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar) Those who don't know the patterns of history are bound to repeat them. Everything I've done here has been to try to stop this cycle...
     
  21. scott3x Banned Banned

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    Not everyone holds NIST in such high regard. I'll bet many of the architects and engineers over at Architects and Engineers for 9/11 truth don't think so highly of them. From their site:
    "511 architectural and engineering professionals and 2606 other supporters including A&E students have signed the petition demanding of Congress a truly independent investigation."
    http://www.ae911truth.org/

    I have yet to see an 'official story' number of architects and engineers that is as large as that. This is their petition:
    ***********************************************************
    TO THE MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES AND
    OF THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

    Please Take Notice That:

    On Behalf of the People of the United States of America, the undersigned Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth and affiliates hereby petition for, and demand, a truly independent investigation with subpoena power in order to uncover the full truth surrounding the events of 9/11/01 - specifically the collapses of the World Trade Center Towers and Building 7. We believe there is sufficient doubt about the official story and therefore the 9/11 investigation must be re-opened and must include a full inquiry into the possible use of explosives that might have been the actual cause of the destruction of the World Trade Center Twin Towers and Building 7.

    Sincerely,

    The Undersigned
    ***********************************************************
     
  22. scott3x Banned Banned

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    Only he didn't make that statement. His statement was: "The scientific community can be politicised", and I would argue that it certainly is. But if truth seeking individuals hadn't 'infiltrated' the scientific community, then brave people such as retired physicist professor Steven Jones would never have raised their voice in dissent of the official story. However, most scientists who disagree with the official story don't want to be thrown out from their post (or put on 'paid leave'), and so are a bit more quiet in their opposition, perhaps only signing a petition as many architects and engineers have done:
    http://www.ae911truth.org/
     
  23. scott3x Banned Banned

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    fedr, are you aware that even NIST doesn't believe that the fires melted steel? True, in doing so, they have to ignore the fact that there was a lot of melted steel.. even some evaporated steel. But perhaps they felt that it was easier to ignore the melted steel then it was to try sell the idea that the fires melted it.
     
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