Moderator Note: Please confine the discussion to the thread topic. This discussion is for examining the notion that Muslims are predisposed to terrorism because of their religion. Most of the recent discussion does not belong in this thread. Ja'far at-Tahir has contributed some vectors back to the subject in his posts (I thank you) but the discussion as a whole has not returned to topic at this point. If the discussion continues to be diverted into theological criticism and apologetics involving the validity of Islam, I will close or remove this thread. To me that would be a pity, because insinuations about Muslim predisposition to violence (and especially terrorism) abound in media and discourse all over the world. It is all too common for such insinuations go unchallenged, and also undefended. Whatever our perspectives on the matter, if we can get beyond superficial innuendo and explore the actual history, traditions, and contemporary culture of Islam -with a deliberate focus on the "Islam breeds terrorism" meme- then we can become better informed and better equipped to share a deeper understanding of a notion that seems (at least to me) much too superficial for it to be so heavily in circulation. This topic is a very important issue in current events, and if we can advance our discussion here, this thread will be valuable. Elsewhere in our Sciforums neighborhood (especially in the Religion forum) threads do abound concerning comparisons, criticisms and apologetics of theologies. If a discussion here veers into such questions of general theology- questions about divinity and revelation, or (for example) questions of whether or not Islam, the Qur'an, or the Hadith are true- then such discussion does not belong in this thread. Such discussion should be taken to the Religion Forum- It is not difficult to invite a diverging discussion into another more appropriate thread and forum. Strawdog has done just that in a recent thread there. Post a link to an appropriate thread in the appropriate forum, or at least identify the thread by name and location if you would like to discuss theology. Short excursions within a post or conversations are fine with me here, but be careful to turn your conversation back to topic before completing a post. This is what I mean by the "vector" of a post. If participants here cannot stay on topic I may reluctantly delete off-topic posts, or if this thread continues to be derailed I will remove it from activity in World Events. This discussion is right where it belongs, and it will remain worthwhile here if we will all please try more, to stay on topic. Thank you.
That's backwards. A perfect message would have to have been from God, is the correct order. Imperfect messages, such as those communicated in human languages, guarantee no such thing. They can come from anywhere (including God, of course) If some Muslims do and accept, as a community of Mulsims X, it does. That's what Islam is. The attitude of Muslims to their theology and holy book is relevant there. Detailed theological discussion may not belong, but the context, the effects of believing that one has in possession a perfect, holy book, do possibly belong. We see, for example, the classic pattern of denying history and example by claiming the perps were not "real Muslims" and their beliefs not "Islam" really - which prevents the deluded from carefully considering whether their own beliefs might enable or encourage such evils, since of course they themselves are "real" Muslims, and their beliefs really Islam.
But it's not Muslims coming together and accepting X as a whole community or ummah. It's Westerners whom aren't even Muslim themselves whom are deciding and accepting all of this as Islam. Sure, Muslims have the capacity to do X because they are human but it again doesn't mean that it reflects on Islam as a religion or philosophy. A Muslim has the capacity to be violent and extreme just like an Atheist has the capacity to be violent and extreme yet they having very different and opposing philosophies. What's the connection? The fact that we are the human animal. This whole argument that you guys keep dishing out is folly and can be applied to any group, religious, secular or otherwise, why? Because we are all human.
There is extraordinary religious fervor occurring in these areas due to the ongoing invaders presence which is attempting to Westernize the culture. This cannot be claimed as a universal expression. What is the ratio of incidents?
In a nutshell its just the normal Western arrogance that assumes the moral high ground by judging the norms of other cultures and, who believe they are somehow ordained to correct such flaws in said society. :m:
This question has a historical problem. Islam didn't start with Muhammad. The religion of God has existed from the beginning of Adam. So the morals have already been on Earth for a long time. Thus some other religions having them doesn't mean anything. You don't need 'new' morals to be taught if you can't even get the ones you have down. Secondly this question assumes that there is unlimited number of morals thus every revelation has to be about morals. When the primary focus of revelation is not morality but God. Secondly Quran is set to be a 'reminder'- let me repeat a 'REMINDER' primarily. Peace be unto you Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
OK, so are there ANY moral lessons, that you know of (or would think), that are taught in the Qur'an but not taught in the other religions (polytheistic Shinto, Hindu, Native American nature religions or Christianity, Judaism, Baha'i faiths or Buddhist faith)? Outright banning Institutionalized Slavery is a relatively new moral. Giving women legal equality is a new moral. Giving legal freedom regardless of religious superstition is a new moral. Why waste time getting people to think logically and rationally or even morally when you can perpetuate their ignorance. (and one wonders?) @ hypewaders -- Do we have a definition of what "Islam" is? There was an Islamic Atheistic on here in the past. Or at least they thought of themselves as such (one mathematician comes to mind). In that case Islam was only a set of cultural norms. -- Do we have a definition of what "Terrorism" is? Is the oppression of Baha'i Terrorism? Is the oppression of Tibetans Terrorism? Was the bombing of a Sufi Temple in Pakistan a Terrorist acts last week? Is legally oppressing Ahmadiyya Muslims in Pakistan a form of Terror? Would legally banning their form of belief be Terrorism? I mean, suppose we in the USA made Islam as illegal - is that Terrorism? Is the USA invasion of Iraq Terrorism? It seems like we have to figure out what we're talking about as well.
Why should there be? Because otherwise this is a pointless question to answer, and I know you love talking about pointless things. I didn't say 'what new morals are there'- you forgot to read the last part of the sentence 'if you can't even get the ones you have down'. And secondly just because you think a new moral exists doesn't make it 'good'. Peace be unto you Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
It appears to be exactly that, in many Muslim communities. Yemen is not being coercively Westernized by "invaders". Neither was Pakistan until possibly very recently. And so forth. Incidents of what? And who cares? Two thousand years ago, Islam did not exist. Morals started a long time ago - possibly: millions of years. Islam is recent, by comparison, as is every known religion and any concept of a unitary deity.
Not what Muslims think.. So when you're asking a Muslim why Islam doesn't have X- when what you think of Islam is different then what they think.. that gets you no where and is a stupid question from the Muslim perspective. Peace be unto you Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
I'm sure it does to people in the West. As I said there is people whom oppose these things but the thing is, these people are often silenced, which to me, the situation seems to say more about the opressive nature of the state apparatus than it does about Muslims and Islam. For example, Imam Muhammad ibn Mahdi al-Hussaini al-Shirazi (RA) and his family (whom has produced many marji) have been famous opponents of Imam Khomeini (RA) and Imam Khamene'i. There is people whom oppose these things, there is opposition that exists both within and without (Muslims abroad). The problem is, it's not so good for Western propaganda. It's much easier to just show the bad things and say "yep, that's Islam in action, right there, you see?"
I like this thread. There is no other like it (that I know of). Although of course this subject is entangled with much of our WE&Ping. :bawl: But I stray, so I I'll shut up. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!peace: everbuddy& good things)
Why should there be what? My question is: Are there ANY moral lessons, that you know of (or would think), that are taught in the Qur'an but not taught in the other religions (polytheistic Shinto, Hindu, Native American nature religions or Christianity, Judaism, Baha'i faiths or Buddhist faith)? It would make them moral. For example, giving women equal legality with men. That's a new moral. Giving people of all faith the legal possibly of equal employment and political representation. That's a new moral. Banning Institutionalized Slavery. That's a new moral. As to them being "good".... I'm not sure what you're getting at. They are now considered moral and ethical behaviors by the majority of people in most Western counties. We don't determine what is Good or Bad by what it written in the Bible but instead by collective consensus.
If we're going to have a thread on Islam and Terrorism I think it'd be helpful to agree on what is "Islam" and what is "Terrorism". -- Do we have a definition of what "Islam" is? There was an Islamic Atheistic on here in the past. Or at least they thought of themselves as such (one mathematician comes to mind). In that case Islam was only a set of cultural norms. -- Do we have a definition of what "Terrorism" is? Is the oppression of Baha'i Terrorism? Is the oppression of Tibetans Terrorism? Was the bombing of a Sufi Temple in Pakistan a Terrorist acts last week? Is legally oppressing Ahmadiyya Muslims in Pakistan a form of Terror? Would legally banning their form of belief be Terrorism? I mean, suppose we in the USA made Islam as illegal - is that Terrorism? Is the USA invasion of Iraq Terrorism? Is THIS an example of Islamic Terrorism? Professor TJ Joseph was attacked by eight people on Sunday as he was returning home from church with his mother and his sister, who is a nun. Police believe that Prof Joseph was attacked because he was accused of insulting Islam in an exam paper. He had his arm hacked off by some conservative Muslim Terrorists defending Islam from his crime of apparently spreading mischief in the land.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/295507/Islam http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/588371/terrorism
So US is a terrorist state....Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Peace be unto you Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
If you read the definition provided, the US fits it. Peace be unto you Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Why.. As far as I am concerned the USA is not a terrorist state.. they do what they do in good intentions not to kill and main innocent People, The USA doesn't Bomb civilian buildings Intentionally, They don't Intentionally bring misery upon Nations? That to me IS what defines Terrorism and a terrorist state, The USA is not any of them.
