Star Wars vs Star Trek

Discussion in 'SciFi & Fantasy' started by Pollux V, May 9, 2002.

?

Which universe would win?

  1. Star Trek

    227 vote(s)
    35.5%
  2. Star Wars

    268 vote(s)
    41.9%
  3. Spaceballs

    47 vote(s)
    7.3%
  4. Farscape

    12 vote(s)
    1.9%
  5. Dune

    50 vote(s)
    7.8%
  6. Stargate

    36 vote(s)
    5.6%
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  1. Ilithi_Dragon Dragon Overlord Registered Senior Member

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    191
    lol That's a nice demonstration of a Bare Assertion Fallacy there, Ricrery.
     
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  3. ricrery Banned Banned

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    In that one Quantum Torpedo video, the illumination lasted for half a second. Real multimegaton blasts would last for a while.
     
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  5. Ilithi_Dragon Dragon Overlord Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    191
    Maybe, if they were going for a straight explosion, but an explosive yield of the magnitude suggested by other demonstrated Photon torpedo yields would have turned much if not all of the warhead's chemical payload into plasma. The object there was not to create a big boom, but to spread the chemical through the planet's atmosphere.

    Another point to bear in mind is that the detonations occurred on the dayside of the planet, making the fireballs themselves much less visible. What we saw was the initial flare of the detonation, which would have only been brief. The residual fireball, which would have endured for an extended period of time, would have been less visible.

    Then, too, these would most likely have detonated high in the atmosphere, since detonating on or near the ground would have made the intended dispersal of the trilithium resin across the planet rather difficult, so the atmospheric effects of the detonation (which is where the sustained fireball comes from - in space, all we would see of the detonation would be a very, very brief flash) would have been reduced in effect and in duration. In other words, a high-atmosphere detonation is going to produce a shorter, dimmer fireball than a detonation lower in the atmosphere.


    EDIT: Additionally, taking a low-end estimate from a single data point without considering the circumstances of that data point that would result in low measurements, and completely ignoring other data points that point to much higher measurements is patently unscientific. You have to take ALL points of data together, and form your theory around ALL available data, otherwise you are failing at science.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2010
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  7. ricrery Banned Banned

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    1,616
    This doesn't disprove that the yield was still in the kilotons.
     
  8. Ilithi_Dragon Dragon Overlord Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    191
    No, it doesn't. However, it is considerable evidence that that kiloton yield was NOT the maximum NOR the standard yield of the warhead. It establishes that quantum torpedoes are capable of at least kiloton-range explosions (though as I noted in the rest of that post, the circumstances in which we are viewing the detonations, and what you are measuring of the detonation, make it possible that the yields were actually higher than the kiloton range you have calculated). It says absolutely nothing of what they are capable of at most.
     
  9. ricrery Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,616
    People around here tend to think Star Trek can beat Halo, without even figuring out what a gigaton is. It's so fucking annoying, which is why other sites are better for this.
     
  10. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    13,938
    The thing is... an explosion in space doesn't really mean a whole lot... I mean... space is kinda big... and cold... and, you know, a vacuum. That's why nukes in space aren't nearly as deadly as nukes in an atmosphere - no compression wave among other things.
     
  11. Ilithi_Dragon Dragon Overlord Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    191
    You know, you're really good at tossing out red herrings...
     
  12. ricrery Banned Banned

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    1,616
    I never cared though.
     
  13. ProphetofWisdom Almighty Tallest Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    297
    Even with low end calcs the Covenant could literally spam the Federation to death through sheer number of ships. Losing 750-800 ships and a 30 kilometer station in only two weeks (around 250 at Reach and another 500 or so along with said 30 km station two weeks later) and Truth pretty much went "Meh, why are you telling me this again?"

    And lets not forget the UNSC built 75 new ships in only a month after the fall of Reach.
     
  14. ricrery Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,616
    Fall of Reach
    Lower Limit: 24 gigatons
    Mid Limit: 7.7 teratons
    Upper Limit: 69.7 teratons.

    How will Star Trek deal with that?

    Torpedoes
    Lower Limit: 2 gigatons
    Mid Limit: 643 gigatons
    Upper Limit: 5.8 teratons.
     
  15. Ilithi_Dragon Dragon Overlord Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    191
    You know, I've read most of the Halo books, save the latest one or two. Their entire power generation tech is based on fusion. That is made eminently clear. Their reactors are fusion reactors, their warheads are fusion warheads. There is only so much energy you can possibly get out of a fusion reaction, even at near 100% efficiency. It's about 1/100th of what you can get out of a matter/anti-matter reaction, which is the main power source in Trek, and which DOES operate at near-100% efficiency.

    I'm not recalling individual weapons that were that powerful... Sure, they had some pretty powerful nukes, but the uber-nukes were massive warheads, and they were still just that: Nukes. I also don't recall them lobbing the nukes around like candy in the same way that Trek lobs torps around.
     
  16. ricrery Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,616
    The Covenant still generate more than the "superweapon" Cardassian Dreadnought which only dealt 43 gigatons.

    Those are torpedoes, and each one does 5.8 teratons a second. They would have to be generating that much to destroy a crust and ocean in one hour.

    A ship has 12 of them.
     
  17. Ilithi_Dragon Dragon Overlord Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    191
    Supporting evidence?



    Mayhap yes, though it was made eminently clear in the first three books that the power generation systems for both the UNSC and the Covenant were fusion-based. There's even a line in the one book ("First Strike" I think...) where Cortanna notes that the Covenant fusion reactors are notably less efficient than the UNSC fusion reactors.

    EDIT: Also, Trek ships have demonstrated vastly superior firepower, being capable of blasting a planet down to it's nickle-iron core in only a few hours.
     
  18. Ja'far at-Tahir Grand Ayatollah of SciForums Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    612
    I voted Spaceballs but I would say Star Trek based solely upon the fact that I like it more than any other scifi series.
     
  19. ricrery Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,616
    To vaporize the oceans in one hour would require 643 gigatons per torpedo, with each ship doing 7 teratons. That's not even talking about destroying the crust. If they thought 43 gigatons was unbelievably powerful, then they are going to shit themselves when they see these yields.

    It doesn't fucking matter. They would have to be generating hundreds of gigatons to teratons every second for a single weapon.

    Oh God... not this bullshit again... it's called NDF. NDF will not work effectively against shields, rendering it useless. Also, 36 ships isn't a fleet to them, 300 is. Covenant would destroy the Star Trek universe so hard it's not funny.
     
  20. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Actually, NDF would work very effectively against shields. Especially as shields work in Halo/SW/ST as being a barrier. Thus, NDF forces would work to distort/disrupt said barrier, allowing damage to pass through.

    Hell, take the Heavy Phaser on the Galaxy-X class - that'd probably punk a hole clean through the Death Star if they so wanted... it's powered directly by TWO warp cores after all...
     
  21. ricrery Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,616
    Um... no? Laser weaponry can't even penetrate Covenant shields. A single Plasma Torpedo would be sufficient to wipe away any ship, and I love how NDF weapons are useless against Borg Cubes.

    Yeah, and the Death Star is powered by a giant Hypermatter Core that generates tens of thousands of yottatons.
     
  22. Ilithi_Dragon Dragon Overlord Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    191
    Maybe... Again, though, Trek ships have done vastly more in less time.



    Maybe, or have a lot of weapons, or some other factors involved.

    You have stated your position/theory, now provide your supporting data or frame it in disprovable terms that we can test to see if it fails.



    The NDF fucks with gluons, the bosons that carry the nuclear strong force, the strongest of the nuclear forces and the one that binds atoms together. The other nuclear forces, the nuclear weak force, electromagnetism, and gravitation are all carried by much weaker bosons.

    It doesn't matter WHAT the shields are composed of. They're either composed of matter in the form of some kind of charged particle screen which would just be more fuel for the NDF elemental reaction, or it would be composed of a field consisting of bosons, the elemental 'force carrier' particles that the NDF disrupts. Either way, that effect is still going to be there, REGARDLESS of the type of shield.


    EDIT: Also, for the record, just 10,000 yottawatts requires the 100% complete conversion of 111,111.1repeating metric tons of matter to energy every second. That's a little over two Iowa class battleships every second.

    Besides, that figure comes from fallacious, non-canon sources at best. There's nothing in the canon that requires the Death Star to be generating that amount of energy.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2010
  23. ricrery Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,616
    Uh huh... like how the Enterprise crew was shocked to see a planet was "bombarded", yet the planet's crust and atmosphere were still there? Like how a low powered Plasma Torpedo lasted more illuminate than a Quantum Torpedo even though it was set on a lower setting?

    No it doesn't.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    Excluding the kilowatt lasers, there are 12 plasma torpedoes being fired in one volley. Therefor, a ship tends to have 12 plasma torpedo tubes. To achieve 9 exatons in an hour, the torpedoes would have to be doing 5.8 teratons each.

    Yet it isn't when the S8472 ship hits Voyager?
     
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