Star Wars vs Star Trek

I was exaggerating, yes, but my point on the scale of things still stands. Realistically, individual actions are going to have very little significance at all.

That's not to say that you can't tell a good story, or make an interesting examination of the possibilities, or use the basic backdrop to tell other stories or examine other possibilities or natures or potentials of human existence; science fiction can certainly do that, and can even do it well. It is just that I, personally, am turned off by stories that emphasize such magnitudes of power, especially when they still try to maintain the silly trappings of modern society and culture, or past societies/cultures that we can easily understand.

By the time you get to civilizations of that magnitude, individuals are only worth about as much as a single cell in our bodies, if they're lucky. So you either have uber-demigods that control disgusting amounts of power, or you're dealing with collective entities. Stories of individual segments of those collective entities can be made, of course, and even made well, but by the time any civilization reaches that level, its concepts of society and culture will be so vastly different from our own as a prehistoric protozoan cell is different from our entire bodies.

Well, you're descriptions of them made them out to be disgustingly OP.

No, it is not impossible to do science. Science is a method, a process. The shows provide us the raw data, the method of science tells us how to analyze and process it. That's the awesomeness of science: You can apply it to literally EVERYTHING. It is, after all, the method of studying everything.
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Well, we assume that all real laws of physics apply, except where they are technically or definitely broken. Usually in these circumstances, the franchise provides us with some explanation for how they get around it (even if it's just some special device whose operation is left unexplained). We allow for the work-arounds, but only in so far as the abilities that the available data demonstrates. If not, we examine the available data for any potential explanation, or form hypotheses based on the available data, that we can then form predictions to be tested against the available data.

Deuterium and anti-deuterium.

Fusion and fission are both nuclear. Technically, M/AM is also a nuclear reaction, though really it's dealing with nuclear forces canceling each other not, not being ripped apart or smashed together. Wikipedia's explanation of the various processes is pretty good for the purposes of this discussion.

 

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Oh course, I will when trying to do a debate.

However, the raw data is against the laws of physics.

Sounds good to me.

Ah, heavy hydrogen.

I meant the term for it.

 

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But that is not being very honest, though. The function that honest debate in an Enlightenment society is not to generate a 'victory' for one side or the other, but rather to discern the truth. If you enter into a debate unwilling to admit where your position is wrong when it is demonstrated as such, or with the intent of misrepresenting your position to generate a victory for your 'side' or 'cause', you are not debating honestly.

As I said, we assume that the laws of physics are applicable, and that any definite violation of them that has no viable alternative explanation is due to some advanced technology and understanding of the universe that we do not yet have knowledge of.

Well, that's a bit fuzzy. Fission and fusion are both nuclear, though thermonuclear does specifically refer to fusion (All thermonuclear reactions are nuclear reactions, but not all nuclear reactions are thermonuclear reactions). Annihilation is the physics term for M/AM reactions, which is generally considered a sub-atomic interaction.

 

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Well, I was not mentioning the fact that at the END of the series, Lelouch became immortal, and he became awesome, he just started with only the Black Knights. Also the huge awesome battle in TTGL is in the end of Gurren Lagann. Macross cannon doesn't operates much, because of something callled plot shield.......and always MAGICALLY for some RANDOM reason, the cannon just doesn't work for ONE REASON OR ANOTHER, but as far as I am aware of, never an enginnering problem, an external problem ( eg. Getting it destroyed by another Macross cannon ). I wasn't planning on doing a detailed summary of the stories instead, I just mentioned their awesomeness. I did mention the fact that their shields aren't very good. It s not overpowered, because they have enemies that are even MORE overpowered. I was debating NUNS ( New UN Spacy ) vs Federation, what does Vraja, Protoculture, The Supervision Army .etc have to do with it? Except for the fact that The Supervision Army is super-uber overpowered, and the Macross was inspired from one of their ships ( SDF-1 ) that crashed on Earth and was restored by the UN Spacy. As I was debating Code and Geass users, well the Black Knights, the Holy Britannian Empire are not Code and Geass users. I mentioned their immortality, but Code users aren't overpowered, because as far as the audience knows, there are only two ( not including Magic Nemo in the manga ). TTGL is a bit weird....really hard to explain the plot shields and stuff, but it is awesome.

I eliminated the parts that have nothing to do with the debate at hand, and was not trying to disguise stuff. The reason that it is not overpowered because there is A) Only one of two of the overpowered stuff ( in Macross, there are a whole bunch of Macross-classes, but only at max 3 appear in one series, and if 3 appears, at least 1 is the enemy ) B) Other people have it C) The protagonists aren't privy to it until quite a while. They created a balance.

Then we can't use our current understanding of science to judge it.

Ah okay thanks.

 

There are a lot of other reasons why I think Code Geass, Macross and TTGL are awesome. It is a bit hard to explain.....

There is a lot of battle of minds, controversial protagonists .etc in Geass.

 

You say individuals doesn't matter in Code Geass......not true. Their technology is not very advanced, only a few decades ahead of ours ( I was debating Force users vs Geass users with no backup support, so I didn't have to mention that ). Individuals did matter, for example, Lelouch learned a hard lesson about collateral damage. I am not going to say too much, in case there are people here that want to watch Geass. You can look it up if you like, I already said a bit too much about those animes.

 

Well it suddenly occurs to me, since you want to go all 'limitless' on Star Trek...

If one submits that 'Q would not involve themselves' then I counter that with 'any ONE Q' might not, but the continuum is not always 100% in agreement, and there lies the possibility for them to debate it since an all out war between galaxies pretty much extends BEYOND normal events. I don't know if its even fair that someone take 'word of mouth' from Q and establishes that it is a rule the continuum automatically live by, but even so - The Emperor's arrogance alone almost qualifies as all the reason the Q could never resist being involved. I would even go so far as to say 'They HATE that shit!!!'

'No limitations to what the Force can do' from where? Yeah, I've read some ludicrous comment about some elite level force user could extend his power to reach... lets say 'REAL FAR' and force choke someone. I say yeah, there's a way to do it, under special circumstances, but not just any random unknown person. I'm not going to accept that the force has no limits unless somebody confirms that for instance, some Sith Lord who never been inside the milky way could choose a victim he doesn't even know exists and put them out of their misery. So what would they need? To know of the target, its whereabouts, have met them, or know them personally, have a 'connection' to them, be able to sense them at that moment, and then at a range of how far?

Also, Q can come and go at will. Don't think I've caught word of that ability amongst any SW folk. Q's upper limit for powers has not been established but they 'come and go at will' which I'd say you have 1:100 chance on any idea you can dream up to battle someone who can do that.

 

So are we going to get back on topic?

Because I want to get back to explaining how it is Star Wars ships are so unstoppable. Lets talk shields, okay? If, as it's argued, SW ships can handle a 1/2 hr of such brutal punishment from turbolasers and phasers and all this junk, how come an asteroid broke a bridge tower? Safe to assume energy weapons are a different beast than straight kinetic impact, right?

Have you looked at the starship size comparison chart lately? Cubes are bigger than I remember... and Im wondering how functional would Star Destroyers be if the Borg Queen just decided that instead of weapons, hit them with something like a sphere or tactical cube or more to the point: What's to stop a second ship from beaming survivors aboard, and salvaging wreckage? If 'live' victims are too hard to handle, dead ones work too, just like Neelix still works after he's been dead for 18 hours. Of course Star Wars folk know all about the way their technology works, and that will help as the Borg begin turning Spheres into little 'mini' Death Stars...

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Yeah, we really got off track.

 

Not that much bigger I think, and I think the SSDs are bigger then cubes. If it comes down to it, the Imperials will teach the Borg what "Tenno Heika Banzai" really means

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( AKA ramming ). There is a way to make sure no information can be extracted when it really comes down to it, they blow their brains into little tiny pieces ( or vaporize it ) with thermal detonators.

 

Please read the post before mine in which Shogun says "let's debate Geass users vs Force Users". Trek was not involved. So you can cut it out with the hostility. We had enough of that with Ricrery(not that i'm comparing you to him, just saying we got our fill) And if you read a little further, we called the Geass vs Force a draw, since Geass powergames.

 

Geass doesn't powergame, Sunrise Studios does

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What post were you reading that you thought seemed hostile? I simply asked if we can go back to Trek. I am not concerned with reading how it got started or how it finished. As for bringing up the name Ricrery, you could have offended me had I respected your opinion which is already proven flawed by your assessment of hostility.

 

Alpinedigital, you incorrectly assume that Omega133 wanted to go "all limitless" on Trek, just from his response to Geass.

 

Please excuse me. There's been alot of anger in me lately, and it seems my interpretation of your post was blurry to say the least. I offer my apologies.

But it is very important to now what you're responding to. Trek wasn't involved in our discussion.

I'm usually not like that. However one of my closest friends is starting to get to my nerves and i'm afraid it's clouding my mind.

Let's get back on topic and start with a clean slate.

 

You said that after the post Omega133 found offensive.

 

Yeah, we should drop that and start clean.

 

The dark side is clouding your judgment.....blame Palpatine

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( I mean no offense and I apologize if it not the right thing to say in this situation, I am just trying to brighten the mood and bring in humor )

 

More like blame Marx/Lenin/Stalin, but whatever.

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Here's the size comparison charts I've seen on the web: http://www.st-minutiae.com/misc/comparison/

As for ramming, Imperials can't show the Borg anything because the nature of the Borg is far more dangerous because its made almost entirely of 'expendables'. Drones are not unique enough for them to consider any drone irreplaceable. At the same time, since they've been known to negotiate and join forces against significant threats, you can never be sure how the Borg might attack.

Also, someone like Janeway and company are far too rich in strategy and tactics. She's every bit as brilliant as Torres at engineering, and a wizard at temporal mechanics. She has logic boy at tactical, an EMH and Seven both waaaay beyond humanoid standards for intelligence and mental capacity, and lets not forget Kes, who's extraordinary powers were just beginning to manifest, and she was already capable of manipulating matter on the subatomic scale.

Does anyone agree that Kes is almost comparable to a force-user? Telepathy, psychokinesis, etc. She DID move a starship like 10k light years in just seconds. Not saying she's ready to become a Jedi or bend a person's will, but Ocampa dude on episode 'Cold Fire' showed they can enhance life itself, or take it away.