Star Wars vs Star Trek

Discussion in 'SciFi & Fantasy' started by Pollux V, May 9, 2002.

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Which universe would win?

  1. Star Trek

    227 vote(s)
    35.5%
  2. Star Wars

    268 vote(s)
    41.9%
  3. Spaceballs

    47 vote(s)
    7.3%
  4. Farscape

    12 vote(s)
    1.9%
  5. Dune

    50 vote(s)
    7.8%
  6. Stargate

    36 vote(s)
    5.6%
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  1. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,149
    Did you see shield interaction? Nope.
    And I said it was starship level weapon, not capship level weapon. Some starship weapons are completely defense orientated, used mostly to make pirates think twice before jumping a frieghter. Also given the material used in Star Ship manufacture, that might have been quite a powerful blast.
     
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  3. Flectarn Unregistered User Registered Senior Member

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    I'll grant you that it doesn't appear to be shielded, but it seems to me that the size of an explosion is dictated more by the yield of the weapon then the material it's impacting, especially in an omni-directional blast as that appears to be. if it were a big yield there'd be a shock wave and such
     
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  5. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

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    1,099
    You likely wouldn't see it. The only visible evidence on a Naboo shield we see is when Anakin restarted his, and that jsut glowed for a moment. Upon impact with enemy blaster fire, the attacks were just deflected. We saw no visible shield interaction.
     
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  7. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

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    4,149
    Okay lets adress your errors in thinking here.

    !. You think a large release of energy automatically means a large explosion. You are not facoring in the amount of energy absorbed by the material struck.

    2: You believe a Energy blast , like form the tank is OMNIdirectional. This is not the case. Energy weapons like those seen in TPM are unidirectional only. Any explosion seen are becuase of tghe energy transfer/energy state changes the material struck undergo.

    3. This shockwave you are thinking of exist in true omni directional weapon. There is a much smaller one from unidirectional weapons, but the shockwave would usually not be visible.
     
  8. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,149
    We saw the shield for several seconds including when battle droids shot at it. This fighters were luanched within seconds of powering up. We should have seen those shields or a minor distortion.
     
  9. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,938
    Scott, even other people on YOUR OWN SIDE say you are wrong.

    Give it up!

    Goddamn you're a stubborn, stupid fool...
     
  10. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    Not likely.

    Besides, assuming anything just meanst that Naboo fighters are retarded. They had to have known there was a risk of getting shot down, and not having your shields on is just asking for it.

    And furthermore, proton torpedoes have displayed about the yield of a hand grenade, and since these would likely be used effectively against other fighters, we can assume that is their upper. Not to mention that we see Anakin firing at droids; they aren't even blown apart, just shot down as if they were whit with ordinary blasters, the only difference is that it sent them flying farther.

    Given this, and the tank example, their shielding output is about 2 kilitons, 4 kilitons max. That would mean, that most light TLs only have 1 kiliton, two at best, since it takes about 2-3 shots to take down a fighter. Bombers would have a higher output, likely along something of 6-8 kilitons, due to their lower speed.

    Now, we can likely calc this just from these incidents.

    Naboo Fighter: 2-4 kilitons
    A-Wing: 2-4 Kilitons
    B-Wing: 8-10 kilitons
    X-Wing: 6-8 kilitons
    Y Wing: 8-10 kilitons

    Notice that the bombers have the highest shielding grid; which makes sense due to their reduced speed, and heavier firepower. The fighters are faster, but have weaker shielding than the bombers. Meanwhile, the intercepters are the fastest, but have lighter shielding.

    Thus, imperial firepower, at least for lower outputs, is pitiful. Now, given this example, we can't expect their higher weapons to do much better. I suspect that their middle weapons are mainly used against each other, with the heavy TLs being the ones that deal heavy damage, but take longer to charge, and are easier to evade.

    Their moderately powered weapons at most are likely to be around 59.9 (60) kilitons, which is the energy needed to vaporize a 20 meter asteriod.

    The heavy turbo lasers themselves are likely to be around 1.5 megatons. Now, there is likely to be some advancement in 20 years, so HTL's could be double that (which is more than fair), and be 3 megatons.

    Thus:

    Light Turbo Lasers: 2 kilitons
    Medium Turbo Lasers: 60 kilitons
    Heavy Turbo Lasers: 3 megatons
     
  11. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    This weapon clearly displays a high level of firepower. Given how Sisko wanted to be 900km away, we can safely assume that the weapon can destroy anything within 800km as the chief stated.

    Let's assume he was talking about fragmentation of an asteriod that's not as large:

    Full
    80,000 meters = 512 gigatons

    512 divide by 90 = 5.7 gigatons per isoton

    Half
    40,000 meters = 64 gigatons

    64000 (megatons) divided by 90 = 711.1 megatons


    Unfortuantely, this itself is pretty hard to accept since we know that they use phasers in combat, and they aren't that tough.

    Let's try 20,000 meters instead, which comes out to 8 gigatons.

    8,000 megatons divide by 90 isotons would give us 1 isoton = 88.9 megatons.

    In Voyager, we're told that Mark VI torpedoes have 200 isotons. This sounds insane, as they are not stronger than the A Time to Stand bomb. Thus, I suspect that Seven was talking about the total supply. Let's assume that Voyager has 38 photons, its max armament:

    200 divided by 38 comes out to 5.26

    However, I doubt voyager has a full complement, so what if we assume, that V stands for the standard isoton yield? That would give us about 33.3 photons, which we can assume that some were modified with a higher blast.

    That would mean that

    Mark I: 88.9 megatons (1 isotons)
    Mark II: 177.8 megatons (2 isotons)
    Mark III: 266.7 megatons (3 isotons)
    Mark IV: 355.6 megatons (4 isotons)
    Mark V: 444.5 megatons (5 isotons)
    Mark VI: 533.4 megatons (6 isotons)
    Mark VII: 622.3 megatons (7 isotons)
    Mark VIII: 711.2 megatons (8 isotons)
    Mark VIIII: 800.1 megatons (9 isotons)
    Mark X: 899 megatons (10 isotons)

    Gravitic Warhead: 4445 megatons (4.445 gigatons) (45 isotons)
    Enhanced Gravitic Warhead: 7112 megatons (7.112 gigatons) (80 isotons)
    Enriched Ultritium bomb: 8001 megatons (8.001 gigatons) (90 isotons)
    Dreadnought Ship: 41,860 megatons* (41.86 gigatons) (470.9 isotons)
    Obsession Bomb**: 73,725,000,000 megatons (73,725,000 gigatons)
    (829,302,587 isotons)
    Cobalt Bomb***: 73,725,000 megatons (73,725 gigatons) (829302.6 isotons)
    Borg Multikinetic Neutronic Mine: 444,500,000 megatons (444,500 gigatons) (5,000,000 isotons)



    *Determined by the Daystrom institute to be the max yield of a 2,000 kg matter/antimatter charge
    **Determined by the Daystrom Institute in the energy needed to rip half the atmosphere off a planet.
    ***1,000 times weaker than the Obsession bomb.

    Now, Voyager had a very strange armament, seeing as they had tricobalts (possibly the cobalt bombs, or possibly three in one).

    That would make Voyager's arms a lot stronger than most UFP weaponry.

    Now, the Galaxy supposedly carries 275 torpedoes. Now, the Daystrom Institute did a calc putting the Skin of Evil torp near the level of the Class VI torp. This would suggest that they did have some of them, but this would likely be upper for the Galaxy, possibly from 15-25 of their total weaponry. We'll go with 5.

    That leaves us with 250 more photons.

    The armament would look like this:

    Class I: 100 photons (8,890 megatons)
    Class II: 80 photons (14,224 megatons)
    Class III: 50 torpedoes (13,335 megatons)
    Class IV: 30 torpedoes (10,668 megatons)
    Class V: 10 torpedoes (4,445 megatons)
    Class VI: 5 torpeodes (2,667 megatons)

    This would be a standard armament aboard a starship. This would explain why the E-D was in danger of a close volley of photons, and in other cases, it was not.

    As for Quantums, we can assume they're likely just class III's that cost less, making them 266.7 megatons. This would make them valuable, and possibly cheaper than the matter/antimatter warheads.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2008
  12. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,149
    Ad hominem, I do notice that you do not address any of the points I made. Then again you have never actually successfully adressed any of the points I made. So what if some people from my own side have (wrongfully) disagreed with me. That doesn't seem to stop you when people who know ST better than you disagree with you.

    Now tell me, which is the more technologically advanced culture. The one that one of their premier ships is a 600 meter vessel with a superstucture that would sag in 1G. Or the culture that builds 700 meter long vessels that can take routinely land and take off from the surface of a planet with no additional facilities needed.
     
  13. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    And yet, even with this, you still have not taken the fact that the lasers on fighters are one or two steps above blasters, and proton torps are about as powerful as hand grenades. 2 kilotons, max.

    Federation fighters toss around low megatons.
     
  14. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,149
    The fighters were in a hurry and to tell the truth Bravo squadron was not battle hardened. They were parade pilots mostly. They did have simulator experience, but this would actually be their first battle EVER.

    Actually the droids he was firing on in the hangar were Droideka which had shield generators. Also it more than likely R2-D2 adjusted the power levels of the ships laser cannons. It is a major part of his function to preserve the fighters, ships, hangar, and the lives of the people in the hangar.

    As for assertion on Proton torpedoes. Movie canon proves you wrong several times over. In fact i am sure even diehard trekkies are laughing at that foolishness.

    Ah, to be that niave and and lacking in math skills. 4 kilotons is far short of what is needed to vaporize the asteroids in ESB. Hell it is far short of what is needed to shatter them. So you assumptions are way way off. Every time a Light Turbolaser has hit a fighter it has destroyed it. Hell a glancing shot on Lukes X-wing in ANH nearly destroyed the craft entirely. Porkins got nailed with a shot just a shade closer and his fighter was destroyed.

    Now if you are speaking of fighter weaponry, well most of them are llightly armed compared to Capships. Note that Naboo fighters were no match for the Trade Federations Droid control ships shields. Only a series of fortunate accidents allowed Anakin to destroy the vessel.




    You do realize that in ANH that Luke's X-wing with just two blasts from each of four cannons exceeded 60 kilotons in the fireball scene? The minimum needed to create the cloud of metal vapor we see in that scene is well in excess of 60 kilotons. After his run the vapor was not oonly there but so energized there was lightning and te metal was burning in places.

    You have provided no evidnce to support you grosly low estimation of force and have ignored a canon resource as well.

    Actually the Y-wing is an antiquated craft, not as heavily shielded as you think. The A-wing does sacrifice shielding for speed, but the B-wing is capable of of damaging capital ships if used in squadrons.

    Think A-wing=Interceptor, B-Wing=Antiship/Bomber, X-Wing=Space Superiority fighter, and Y-Wing Antiquated Superiority fighter turned bomber.

    As for TIE/in most of them are unshielded except for particle shielding.

    The rest of your argument is based on fallicous reason at best. Even if you ignore canon evidence of the Asteroid sequence in ESB and say they were shattered that is well in excess of 2 kilotons. Basically you taking one example in TPM that is basically a damn lucky shot and trying to shoehorn everything else to fit your expectation in direct conflict of evidence and canon material.
     
  15. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,149
    Again you are making a mistake. 90isotons of enriched ultritium sounds like a unit of measure here not an expression of power relative to TNT. If the wording is what you say than we know know an isoton is standard of measure. From the way it is desribe it might be as little as one metric ton. Though more likely considering the oddness of the ST universe it could simply be hundred tons o0r 10,000 tons, or 10,000,000 tons though if we stay with scientific notation we are talking ONE tons. Iso=One.

    So let's suppose 1 ton. This means 90 tons of a super rare material can destroy everything in 800 kilometers. Of course we are not sure the bomb in question is like the tricolbalt devices and does it's damage via subspace disruption either. But we will assume it normal explosion and we will remember O'brien is smart enough to factor in the fuel and contents of the storage facility in the explosion as well. Which by the way include any reacotr in the storage sight as well. Given ST love of Antimatter and singularities it is entirely likely that O'brien just figured the core would go cuasing that damage. So we cannot even begin to thing 90 isotons is form of firepower determination.

    Now here's the tricky part. If we assume that isoton is standard unit of measure and from usage and nomenclature it is one metric ton. this means that a Type VI torpedo is only equivalent of 200 tons of TNT.

    BY the way for those curious. 100 tons

    Oh that that would mean that 200 tons of dynamite would be a viable threat versus a Federation starship. Which seems kind of odd, I know, but hey it does fit what we have seen in the shows.
     
  16. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,938
    THE "POINTS" YOU MADE ARE NOT WORTH ADDRESSING! They have been disproven more times than I care to count! Stop wasting everyones time and just leave this thread to those with some SHRED of dignity!
     
  17. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,938
    Scott, stop saying R2D2 pulled down the power of the fighters weapons. You cannot PROVE that and there is far too much reasonable doubt to say he did!

    Hell, if that were the case, and he was THAT worried, wouldn't he just take OVER for the little spudnugget in the pilots seat?
     
  18. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,938
    And scott, your math sucks. Terribly. Give it UP already.

    For all you know, Starship Phasers actually are powered by GOD himself and the Force is something that comes from the CareBears!

    Yes, that is how little you truly know of Star Trek OR Star Wars given the piss poor posts you have made on here! The only reason I had unblocked you is because they were humoring me for a while... now the same old shit is just ANNOYING!

    You are going back on my ignore list... permanently!
     
  19. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,149
    You have yet to disprove even one of my points. You keep trying and keep failing. You cuaght me in a few mistakes and I have admitted I was wrong about which side the fighter was shot from. I also messed up with doppler shift. I admitted that mistake as well It didn;t really apply to my point as it turns out, but i still admitted my error. Have you admitted your errors?

    So far all of my points have been based on science, technology and engineering.
     
  20. Fox Anderson Registered Member

    Messages:
    8
    Ok notes on shock waves.

    One Shock waves are visible as an atmospheric distortion. This is caused by the pressure of the shock wave momentarily changing the density of the air and when light passes through something of differing density it changes direction if only slightly. You can see the shock waves on film in the Korean war footage. There would not however be a visible shock wave in space as there is no air. Same thing with the fact that their would be no sound unless the ship had sensors that would artificially produce sound when it sensed something in the distance. (nice concept for space fights actually as it would provide an intuitive warning system) But it would have to be well programmed to do this. Not saying Star Wars galaxy couldn't since the have droids it would be rather easy. However back to topic. If the omni-directional blast wasn't strong enough to be seen that would also mean that their yield would be less than our real life weapons like hand grenades. Having been in the military and used them I can tell you that if your paying attention even a concussion grenade makes a visible shock wave in the atmosphere. If this is the case then their weapons power is nowhere near the level to even attempt taking on Star Trek. This is just comparing the effects to real world. Now taking into account real world laser weapons that the U.S. military is currently putting into deployment on the latest weapon platforms like the F-35 when that kind of energy hits its just real bright and melts its way through the material. There is no shock wave from energy weapons thus far. So if the weapons in Star Trek/Wars are thought to be along those lines unless there was an explosion you would never see a shock wave. It has been seen things exploding however. When some of the targets get hit there is a spray of sparks. Considering that the minimal shock wave from a grenade while visible to the naked eye is not however visible to cameras, thats because of the physics of frame speed, (unless you get real lucky and have a high speed camera then you can see it clear as day) It would be reasonable to see that the weapons in Star Wars and Star Trek could be more powerful than our current day weapons. But they wouldn't be that much more powerful since much more increase in explosive pressure results in the shock wave being visible even on normal cameras. Now real aircraft can be severly hurt by even a hand grenade if it explodes anywhere close to it. Since we see similar explosions and damage as one would expect from real world events in Star Wars we can (using physics) safely assume that the tank shots and blaster bolts coming from fighter size craft have about the same yield or slightly more than a direct hit by a hand grenade.

    Considering this since the capital ships have weapons that are say about at least 100 times more powerful than the fighter sized weapons that puts their yield at probably a few kilotons. Since Star Trek shields are rated for absorbing multiple megatons if not gigatons it shows that yet again Star Wars weaponry falls far short of being able to do anything to Star Trek shields. Now their space torpedoes might be a different matter. I do not know the yield of them but would assume they are at least in nuke range of many megatons. We know they don't use anti-mater as it has never even been mentioned (to my knowledge, correct me if I'm wrong) in the Star Wars films. But then neither were a lot of stuff about their weapons. The federation uses as standard Quantum torpedoes which have far more yield (well in the [estimated] giga-ton range) so just one of these would cause so much damage to even a super star destroyer that it would likely disable it. A few shots would toast it. Got to hand it to the federation. By the way this isn't even taking into account transphasic torpedoes. Just one of those obliterate even the the suncrusher and since the thing is phased they would have no way at all to be able to stop it besides hyperspacing the hell out of their with their proverbial tail between their legs.
     
  21. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,149
    Actually it fits all the pertinent facts here. it does not require any extraneous information and fits everything else. We know from other scenes in other movies that the firepower of fighters is much more impressive than the 2 kiloton estimate. Hell, even DarkStar credits Slave one with an excess of .8 megatons and it uses the lightest of starship energy weapons. (Jango believed in rapid fire for the beams and using missles and seismic charges for the bigger stuff.)

    This all fits with occam's razor as it takes into account all the facts and adds no extra little details.


    Can't. Pilot has to give over manual control of things like steering and weapons usage. Notice that R2 could not just fly the ship after taking it off autopilot.
     
  22. Fox Anderson Registered Member

    Messages:
    8
    Amendment to above post.

    Just in case it isn't clear, we do not know how much energy would be converted to the shock wave. Considering that the main damage is in melting the matter then the damage would be mainly thermal. Still they wouldn't be able to scratch the shields of ST. I would say honestly that the amount of fire power in a Star Wars fighters blasters would probably be anywhere from 2 to 5 kilotons max. Any more than that and it would basically vaporize a fighter on impact.
     
  23. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,149
    Good, I am sick of ad hominem attacks that have no substance and less imagination.

    By the way I am a diehard trekkie myslef and a fan of Star Wars. I would love for Star trek to be a match for Star Wars, but in all honesty and love for the all the series (except Enterprise) and movies demands that i am honest and admit that against the Galatic Empire even the Voth haven't a snowball's chances in the core of the Sol.
     
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