Are We Going to War With Iran?

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Bowser, Jan 2, 2012.

  1. The Esotericist Getting the message to Garcia Valued Senior Member

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    Why do you trust such sources?

    Who is behind Human Rights Watch? (2004)

    Let's hear for war war war!!! Yay! Let's find a justification for it. :shrug: Sometimes, you just need to let other people solve their own problems rather than kill them, take them over, and solve their problems for them.

    Of course, unless they have something you want of theirs. . . right?

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  3. The Esotericist Getting the message to Garcia Valued Senior Member

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    Bear in mind, when Saddam said he was no longer going to trade his oil in dollars, but was going to start trading his oil in Euros, well, that was the end for him.

    And when Qaddafi said Libya was going to start trading their oil for gold instead of Euros? Well, he was dead within the year and NATO took over that country and set up a debt based monetary system.

    If Iran plans to start trading oil for gold? Well, b/c they have one of the few banks that is not part of the Bank of International Settlements, nor part of the World Bank or IMF . . . you can count on the International Bankers and the Rothchilds DEMANDING war now if this oil for gold scheme turns out to be true.
     
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  5. StrawDog disseminated primatemaia Valued Senior Member

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    Thank you.
    They never had and do not now have suicidal delusions. These are figments of the USrael propaganda machine. On the contrary Iran has responded calmly and with dignity to serial character assassination. (to use a novel simile)
    The sanctions do not have much of a bite, the media is hyping the scenarios. There are always buyers for oil. China and Russia are not going to cooperate with Washington's sanction delusions and China and India will mop up the excess oil at bargain prices.
    Iran cannot initiate war, it is already under attack. Watch out for the creation of more situations to tempt Iran to overreact and fire the first salvo. This is the oldest trick in the US book.
    Fair appraisal.
    The sanctions that the US want to impose on Iran equates to attempting to ruin its economy - and is an act of war. If Iran retaliates, this will be self defense. What is shocking is that this ENTIRE scenario is based on a non existent nuclear weapons program without an iota of hard evidence that - 1.) Iran is building a nuke, or - 2.) that Iran will use a nuke even if it had one. This is the sad state of reality today with nary a critical voice of reason to be heard on the Western front.
    They have said over and over again that they are not seeking to create nukes, that it is against their religion and moral position and that they would like to see a nuke free World altogether. Its all on the record for those not swayed by media distortions, disinformation and simple untruths - and with an ounce of critical thinking capability.
    BP is what started this crap in the first place, when the subjects of Empire, stood up to the theft of their resources by nationalizing the Iranian oil industry. Governments and Corporations were colluding then as they are now.
     
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  7. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    Since when is it advisable to take the words of politicians at face value? That doesn't sound like "critical thinking" to me.

    If you want to gauge what a polity will and will not do, you should start by looking at their actions and interests. And to that, let's note that the credulous crowd here has long made a habit of noting that Iran has plenty of reasons to want a nuclear deterrent. We also know that Iran has previously colluded with the AQ Khan nuclear black market, and did have an active nuclear weapons program in past years. My own view is that Iran would like to possess a "breakout capability," not an extant arsenal.

    But this dead horse has been beaten over and over again here, for years now. What makes you think that you are going to convince anyone to embrace Iran's position with these same old arguments?
     
  8. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    Saudi Arabia perhaps, but no, not as repugnant, not as powerful either, which would make their defects more important. Certainly not the USA.
     
  9. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    From your link:
    But Human Rights Watch finds it self-evident, that the United States may legitimately restructure any society, where a mass grave is found.

    Yes, damn right. Genocide automatically forfeits the legitimacy of any government that conducts it.
     
  10. StrawDog disseminated primatemaia Valued Senior Member

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    When taken in context and over time, when the nation in question has willingly embraced the NPT (as opposed to its No.1 & 2 critics), when the IAEA has found not an iota of fuel diversion nor serious breaches of safeguards, one can absolutely consider that critical thinking. Furthermore - critical thinking - should encompass the entire geo strategic chess board, past & present, along with the fact of dwindling oil mineral resources, and which ME nations have been and are targeted, to appraise the truth that hides in the middle of political discourse.
    Of course, that is why both the Israeli and US intelligence agency's are continuously monitoring the situation and have thus declared Iran nuke free. To date. Of course in contradiction to what spews from Obama, Clinton and compliant media. (should this paradox not be a huge story in the NYT?) If one looks at the actions and interest of the US, one sees quite clearly what is occurring, and has been occurring for a very long time.
    Like probably every vulnerable country on the planet - including Israel. Should we invade Israel to look for nukes? No? Why not?
    A distinct possibility, but not one that bears up to scrutiny. Yet.
    This is a predictably stereotypically Western world view opinionated board that has swallowed the propaganda hook line and sinker. Some alternative opinions are helpful. If you were Iranian Joe would you welcome those?
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2012
  11. StrawDog disseminated primatemaia Valued Senior Member

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    Do you not consider - indefinite detention without trail, rendition, assassination, torture, war crimes, etc repugnant?
     
  12. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    Torture is illegal, and I don't believe we are committing war crimes as a matter of policy. I'm in favor of assassination and detention of our enemies in war. I don't believe the USA is beyond criticism, but compared to Iran, we are a beacon of morality.
     
  13. StrawDog disseminated primatemaia Valued Senior Member

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    So you are comfortable with the fact that if perhaps mistakenly, YOU are suspected of collusion with "terrorists" or "enemies", you can be arrested and thrown into a detention center and held indefinitely, without charge, legal representation, or your family even knowing where you are? Perhaps for ever.
     
  14. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    Compare that to Iran, where you can be subject to the same thing as well as being tortured, for doing nothing more than being gay, or saying something that could be interpreted as against Islam, or blogging, or standing up for a representative government.
     
  15. StrawDog disseminated primatemaia Valued Senior Member

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    Whether you want to accept it or not - there is no moral difference between the two.
     
  16. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    I don't accept it because it isn't true. Life in Iran seems to be normal- as long as no one questions the regime. It's a kind of charade of life, it pretends to be a society of justice, but the watchful eye of big brother is all around. It's 1984 made real, not unlike N. Korea but not as poor.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2012
  17. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    The IAEA has declared Iran to be out of compliance with its obligations under the NPT, and Iran has refused to comply with a subsequent UN Security Council resolutiono demanding they cease uranium enrichment.

    Not sure who these "critics" you're referring to are, but the USA was among the earliest signatories to the NPT.

    And such an appraisal would be remiss to ignore Iran's geopolitical ambitions, the recent surge in fossil fuel production in North America, etc.

    If you have evidence that Israel purchased stuff from the AQ Khan network, I'd love to see it.

    In the meantime, why is it that being a "vulnerable country" with a clear interest in a nuclear deterrent and alleged links with the nuclear black market results in the presumption that Israel has nuclear weapons, but not that Iran is looking for the same?

    Nobody has suggested that anyone invade Iran to "look for nukes." You seem to be replaying the 2003 invasion of Iraq, or something. The most that's been suggested is targetted strikes on Iranian nuclear facilities to interrupt their nuclear program.

    Meanwhile, Israel is not an NPT signatory, and so does not have the same obligations as Iran, and so is not in defiance of a UNSC resolution to cease enrichment.

    Why not? Do you have any actual coutnerargument, or are you just dismissing this out of hand?

    Or, that's what you need it to be, in order to buttress your self-image as a crusading truthseeker overturning the idiocy of callow sheeple. You might get some mileage out of that, if you could resist your tendency to embrace opposing propaganda.

    The opposite of propaganda is not counter-propaganda.

    I would not appreciate people going around stumping for the dictators that oppress me, no. One can perfectly well dislike the prospect of a military conflict with the USA and the system of authoritarian repression, no?
     
  18. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    So you're saying that the Iranian dictatorship is morally equivalent to the imperialist American hegemon? Interesting. When will we see this equivalence expressed in equivalent skepticism of their respective positions and statements?
     
  19. The Esotericist Getting the message to Garcia Valued Senior Member

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    I'm sorry, what mass graves? What genocide?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_Wars#The_Sand_Creek_massacre_and_the_Sioux_War_of_1865

    You do know that the Lakota tribe wants recognition from the U.N., don't you? I think, considering your stand here, it would be only fare to cede the Lakota land to them then, huh?

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    Last edited: Feb 2, 2012
  20. StrawDog disseminated primatemaia Valued Senior Member

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    Again, contrary to what the US Admin and the media may say, Iran, like any other NPT member, has a legal right to enrich uranium to non-weapon levels, and of course, it`s pursued in accordance to the NPT - and of course the fact is - no diversion of nuclear material has been found.
    US & Israel. Israel by producing and stockpiling undeclared nukes and the US for not condemning and punishing Israel for doing so.
    And of course not exclude the USNATO serial assaults on non compliant oil rich nations and their pipeline carrying surrounds.
    No, they got it from the apartheid South African regime.
    Israel is vulnerable and has acquired nukes. If Iran is to be invaded or bombarded looking for hypothetical nuke making stuff or nukes, surely logic suggest we invade Israel to look for the same. Perhaps just limited strikes on their reactors, I mean we are not sure eh?
    Its the same thing. Any strike on Iran will lead to a wider conflict and end in an invasion and attempted occupation, with the added danger of dragging other nations with economic interests in Iran into a wider reaching conflict.
    Of course. So then if Iran rejects the NPT all will be well, no more anti Iranian fervor?
    There is simply no evidence for nukes whatsoever.
    What is this sheeple that you keep referring to?
    No, again you are confusing my attempts to correct the disinformation that is being presented as "reality" with taking sides. I also believe, based on recent history, that hundreds and perhaps thousands of Iranian civilian lives are at stake here. Have you never stood up to a bully?
    If I was to promote Iran is an angel amongst nations you could pull that trick. Of course I don`t, they are a ruthless bunch, up there with rest of the baddies.
    You have a point there, except I am not stumping for authoritarian regimes, I am stumping for the countless civilians who will die if Iran is targeted. The suggestion that war, under any circumstances, creates a better world is particularly mendacious.
     
  21. StrawDog disseminated primatemaia Valued Senior Member

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    They are both guilty of gross human rights abuses. Next time Teheran assassinates a US scientist, I will voice my moral outrage.
     
  22. The Esotericist Getting the message to Garcia Valued Senior Member

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    http://www.presstv.ir/detail/224269.html
    Iran focus of Israel's spy chief's secret visit to US

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    Head of Israel's infamous spy agency (Mossad), Tamir Pardo

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/01/us-iran-usa-report-idUSTRE8100BH20120201
    Group urges credible U.S. military threat to Iran

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  23. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    Ancient history.
     

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