Star Wars vs Star Trek

Read some of un edited G2K responses to Wong. you can also read his entries on other forunms such as this one and you'll get a better picture. Wong is little pissy, but imagine you have the answers in plain English before you, but some idiots keep flying in the face of science and telling you that you're a moron. You tend to get a little short.

 

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Obviously, your head must be wired wrong. he did not say universes as all. In fact the way he put it they were obviously all realted. Though i agree fanon is not canon at all. besides like i said an interview does not negate establihed and excepted canon policy. Not that this one would at all.

I never said EU has precedence of the movies. However they do tell the background and intervening stories. Which does not make them less canon unless they directly refute the movies. Proof has been provided again and again in this thread, including interviews with Lucas when he spoke of canon.

Is what I am saying so hard to understand? Movies primary canon. EU Secondary canon.

We saw the generator from a distance, and wouldn't the shielding of the generator be on the inside where the reaction was taking place? Why yes it would. But to cuase a contianment breach to you have top penetrate those shields as well as the casing.

There is shielding on the FRIGGING inside of the warp core. Duh. How do you think the ship keeps from blowing up. Plus the D raised containment fields around the warp core at times as well.

The math isn't even nearly right and i have done so several times on this thread. Want it? Go look for it. I posted it a long time ago so i have fulfilled my duty.

Idiot, a nuclear weapon explodes even before the reaction goes off. However when a beam strikes and object and then starts an instantaeous explosion then you know you are dealing with a high power beam.

To start this off I need to debunk a few things

Darkstar forgot the key part of this. That the explosive would be on the inside of the object to be fragmented. As anyone can tell you trying to fragment it form the outside requires substantially more energy. this does work for both genre's thankfully.

With a modicum of research we discover granite has a density of 2750 kilograms per cubic meter. It has a specific heat of 294 joules per kilogram. It has a metling temperature of ~1215K. 20 meter diameter asteroid would mass 11,519,173.06 kg and take 4,792,091,186,006.26 joules to heat from space temperatures to melting temperature. That translates to 0.899923227 megatons. Now note this is without latent fusion energy and does not take in losses due to conduction.

With little effort I found TWO huge glaring errors with his calculator.

BTW we saw a 40 meter across asteroid vaped in ESB, but know others were vaped in novelization, some as big as 200 meters. For the largely nickel-iron asteroids they appear to be that would take 5,605 megatons at the minimum.

Like I said the day you debunk me, is the day you get a ticker tape parade, which i will gladly Grand Marshall.

you have not disproved anything I have claimed, though you have proved, through concession one point below.

You've never defeated them.

Okay so two incidents of planetary sheilds, but we haven't seen a single one in the Federation, Klingon, Cardassian, Dominion, or Romulan world with shields. Where did they go? Come on, you can tell me. Besides those three mentions we have not heard of or seen a planetary shild except on distinct on nonaligned worlds. And in fact the other shields are easily explained as shields for the facilities. Which is understandable as shields for a base, penal colony or insane asylum Though in the later two cases it could have been as simple as a low level feild to block transporters.

I will concede the possibility of planetary shields for Star Trek, but they would be scaled for the weak sheilds ST has.

 

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He also immaturely re-directs G2k's website links to porn sites. (Dangerous ones I might add).

And doesn't he hack people?

 

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YOU do not agree? How can you say what Lucas is right or wrong about? His word is FACT when it comes to SW. Furthermore, we are not the only people who think this:

http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa?threadID=264758&tstart=0

And again, he said there were three different worlds, and then he put HIS MOVIES IN ONE, and the EU IN ANOTHER!

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Really now, I've never seen this, would you care to provide these interviews in which Lucas confirms taht they are canon?

No, it isn't hard to undestand what you're saying. What you're saying just happens to be wrong, as by the evidence others and myself have posted in this forum.

Sorry, but we have no evidence of shielding. No one mentioned that there was a shield over the generator, and we so no evidence of one. Thus, there was no shield...how is that hard to understand. Simply trying to talk your way out of having to prove it won't work. Prove that there was a shield with imperical evidence, or conceede.

Never heard of that...can you prove it?

Not sure, why don't you post some evidence that supports your thesis.

I don't recall that ever. Only the Enterprise E has ever put up a shield around its warpcore.

Sorry, you claimed it was wrong, so you have to back up your claim. I am not going through 400+ pages to find your proof.

:bugeye:

SW lasers are always exploding. Check out the battle scene in Attack of the Clones, the lasers were going off like made before they even HIT anything.

Really? Then I guess Wong must have too, because his site says that you can also destroy a 10km meteor with 1 gigation:

ARe you also saying that Wong is wrong as well? Furthermore, that would also mean that UFP weapons would have to do the same, and they would still come out on top (as the antimatter explosions would have to take this into account, as would the phasers ect.).

Basicly, you aren't increasing your side higher than ST, you're just raising the levels of both.

And again, even if we were to take your calculations...it would still trail behind phasers and photon torps by a large gap.

And, apparently with Wongs.

1. Prove that there was a 200 meter asteroid

2. That would only take 59.9 megatons to vaporize.

Sorry, but you failing to ever to counter my points does not make you a winner.

Nowhere, they're still there. It was made canon long ago, so thus, it is still canon. Such a thing has never been declared non-canon in the history of Trek.

The UFP owned those two colonies (one of which had their former captains on it), and the third was mentioned by Kirk, who even asked if it had a shield. Again, if it was so rare, why would Kirk believe it was likely they had one?

Sorry, but this was never stated. Ever. In fact, in Whom Gods Destroy, the planet was said to specifically have a shield over the entire planet.

If that was the case, why didn't the crew just land on the planet's surface and then beam into the area they wanted to get to? Your whole claim falls apart, not to mention that Scotty was considering blasting through one of the shields.

If by weak, you mean a shit load stronger than SW ones, then yes.

 

Or maybe he was just a little too truthful for you. The seismic charges on Slave I alone were enough to pulverize asteroids in a several hundred kilometer radius. Or didn;t you see that seen in AOTC. I know everyone else did. Just that weaponf would cut the Enterprise D in half.

Human nature should tell you to distrust the person who whispers. After all they are the ones who will knife you in the back.



Want proof?

http://www.daltonator.net/fuq/trolls/g2k.html

 

neither allegation was proven.

 

I remeber having to read that several times to make sure I had not gone dyslexic in the middle of a sentence.

Having experienced Wong first...going to G2k was like a breath of fresh air. As I read I noticed the same thing of Wong that G2k observed and rember thinking..."I'm glad it's not just me!"

Wong even has a creationism vs evolution on his site. Now I have a different side than either ideas...but seeing that he had somehow fit this into his sci fi debate disturbed me and it began to explain his oppressive attitude on the sci fi debate. It really was equal to a evolution debate. We're talking at best sci fantasy in star wars....This isn't the fate of the universe.

G2k was almost...PC and playful, nonchalant. And much of his reason was easy to see he didn't have to slap you with his logic to understand it.

Good, I had the same thoughts on the "Rise" calculations. I hate translating from 2D into 3D measures and I've often found him just a bit TOO litteral.

I didn't agree on the Nemesis Enterprise Scimitar Colision thing nor the amount of ships he says Trek has. I think he says some where between 8 to 10 thousands or something. I think it's closer to 20,000 to 25,000 starships just between Excellsior and Galaxy alone according to registry. I think the ships stick around much longer than he suggest.

The Star Trek Fan boys can get to me too. They're abit over zealous. it's...admirable but temperable.

 

yeah I remember seeing that link...He takes up some shady practices.

 

do you people get payed by word?

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some one on this board (i can't keep up) wrote:
"And I told you, nowhere in there did Lucas say 'THE EU ISN'T CANON!' He was talking about how his movies are superior."

i agree, and if the movies show the weapons as less destructive then we must accept them as such.

now a little deal-breaker for all you would be physicists:
definition of MT:A unit of explosive force equal to that of one million metric tons of TNT.

you read this lads? it has nothing to do with weapon yealds, charge, capacity,power or energy emissions. it is the explosive effect the weapon has on a target. i don't recall seaing multi megaton or even kiloton explosions in SW or ST. well maybe in ST the motion picture when they destroy that asteroid, or the Alderan destruction in the original version.so get back some 50-90 pages. i'll review the ESB again this evening to provide you with caps from it.

BTW i am allowed to post those right?

 

I was trying to figure out if he was kidding or mentally retarded.

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Same here. Although, I can remember my first few debates, where I claimed the SW lasers couldn't penetrate the UFP's deflector dish and so on.

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Well, I agree that most creationists are kinda stupid to an extent, in that they ignore science when it doesn't match their own. Granted, most of them are nice people, but they're wrong in the idea that evolution didn't happen.

However, Wong still acts like a condescending asshole. Very much to his biblical page where he mocks the bible and makes false claims pertaining to what exactly happened in it. Going even through a few of his quotes clearly showed he had no fucking clue what he was talking about.

Yeah, the Storm Trooper armor was really funny.

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True, I hate them just as much, but at least he tries to do calculations rather than hide behind ICS. In any case, I think is method only left him a few megatons off, as Trekspert's higher yield was just 19.1 below his own (I took the higher yield from Trekspert's calcs because when he made the calculations, his lower yield one would assume that the light around the torp was smaller than the second, but at the distance, you would only see the larger spikes, and thus, the higher yield seems more logical).

1. Well, that's hard to discern, but given the fact that Picard noted how overconfident that Shinzon was, it's logical to believe that Shinzon himself was being an overconfident douche, and had lowered his shields. Mind you, his opponents ship was trashed, had lost main power, no weapons left, and couldn't run or call for help.

2. To be fair, he has evidence on his side...for the lower limits at least. In Sacrifice of Angels, they took elements of three fleets to try and get about 900 ships, but they had to go without part of the other fleet. Later in the series, it was stated that the Klingons would have 1,500 starships ready for battle, and it was noted that they would be facing 30,000.

Granted, this was after both sides had taken massive death tolls, ship losses, and their ship yards were being strained. However, it is very interesting to note that there are ten fleets (that we know off), and if each had a thousand worth of starships, that would mean that throughout the war, the UFP's building rate was as high as their losses. Thus, I would say that they at least have about 10,000 starships each, before the Dominion war.This would be a standard for every Alpha power. Given this, the Cardassians likely only had a few thousand, and Dominion likely have 15,000, and the Breen likely brought 8,000-10,000 to the table when they joined.

Still, yes, by all logic they should have about 20,000-25,000 starships, but remember that during the war, they lost most of the older ones to Dominion fleets, and the Klingons had lost more during the Klingon-Cardassian war.

Yes, at times it's hard to restrain their...strange methods of debate.

 

O,ya what if they wield Gugan's energy shields

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Is wide beam wider then that?, the jedi and sith can weild them too!

 

EU is canon. He never said it's not, he said it's only not HIS universe. if it is non-canon why do they put it on the official database? http://www.starwars.com/databank/appearance/ep0.html
it is there so it is canon!

 

Wide beam can take out anything as wide as a street, as seen in Return of the Archons.

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Ya at a cost of less power of corse, laws of physics if it is wide as a street then it's power only can stun, they are force-users they can resist stun. and EU is canon.They can turn the shield side ways you know

 

just aim before their lines, heat up the groud and start the barbeque. or toss some granates in their midsts. seriously Phantom Menace is THE worst display of combat efectivness. they fight like roman legions!!!! i mean WTF???!!!

 

You call Domainian war a full-scale war? they don't have any ground fighting or the number of ships. Compared to the Clone Wars the domainian war is a fist-fight. 10,00 ,000+ ships for the CIS and 50,000+ ships for the Republic. The whole starfleet is smaller then the Open Circle 1st fleet, 2 fleet, 5th fleet, and the fleet that defened coruscant.( the reason you don't see many ships in the movies is because the battle almost ended the ships got destoryed )

 

yes yes, EU is canon and the movies contradict the EU so the movies contradict the canon, so there.....

 

Remember that Naboo never had a fight before that. They only have Starfighters vs Alot of battleships.

 

well if the ships got destroyed they are no longer there right? which means they don't have them....

 

Ya, The whole clone wars is not just the Battle of Coruscant, it is the whole clone wars. lost 2.5/4 of it's navy in clone wars, Republic lost barly any compared to the whole size of the navy( open circle never lost a single Star destoyer in the battle. )