Star Wars vs Star Trek

Discussion in 'SciFi & Fantasy' started by Pollux V, May 9, 2002.

?

Which universe would win?

  1. Star Trek

    227 vote(s)
    35.5%
  2. Star Wars

    268 vote(s)
    41.9%
  3. Spaceballs

    47 vote(s)
    7.3%
  4. Farscape

    12 vote(s)
    1.9%
  5. Dune

    50 vote(s)
    7.8%
  6. Stargate

    36 vote(s)
    5.6%
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  1. Saquist Banned Banned

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    3,256

    I've found sources to support that Hukka4Life....One was a simple WIKi

    saying:

    While the Wi ki isn't known for it's super accuracy...These are refrenceable source and they are infact true according to the information I've seen so far.

    And seeing that they've attempted to reconclie this difference in canon and bring the movie and the EU together...and the fact that the EU still uses them as shield Generators and the most recent game...Empires at War still does... then it seem the nail is in the coffin on the shield generator debate.

    Shame on you Sian for not even researching the WIKI...or anything else but that star warst technical commentary....

    THAT'S RIGHT I READ THAT TRASH TOO.
    The most uncannon crap I've seen which explains the sewage spewing in your post....You used this guys assesment verbatim....Your ARE THE WEAKEST LINK.....

    Yes, I concur and the list gets longer when you move into all the movies and Trek in it's entirety...



    I've always seen the Furry Conflicts on RA's website but I haven't read it...what's it about?

    hardly the only Threat, just one of many...

    Star Trek Canon has not stated the upper power levels of a Galaxy Class starship.

    Fortuanly Star Wars has nothing with the power of something several millions Degrees Kelvin...

    True
    Inconclussive to Star Wars thresholds of less than the straffing ability of Star Wars fighter craft.

    Uncanon:
    It actually seems STar Wars doesn't have the technology to penetrate Trek shields effectively...Not that bundles of fire power wouldn't wory eventually...but seeing that the shields aren't based to against fire powere and neither are trek weapons then Star War's has alot to worry about.
    They've played the fire power card a hundred years ago...They got over it.

    writers motivation. If I chose to then I will...Hope that I don't.

    False..Q has offered to get invovled before...

    You've been proven false on several of these topics already.

    LOL...no they don't have exhasust ports that blow the ship up....That's gotta be a strength.

    Yess we've seen traking for the mirco torps in DS9 taking out Klingon ships in scores...

    As well as the phaser fire in that episode was vaporizing large sections of BoP aswell

    Scott stick around all you like I'm sure your fantasy on fiction will tickle somebody...eventually..

    I think they can to a point but If you were right then Han should have been expectin the Emprie to show up at Bespin and he wasn't...

    It would appear if they do...then it's very very limited...The calucalte trajectories to track targets...Timothy Zahn and the EU writers support the superior canon...

    Looks like the Force maybe the only thing that can do tracking of lightyears.

    And its definitely no tracking...
    Hyperspace is a different dimension...ships make the jump to hyperspace by jumping to light speed....It's during the jump...the light speed part that the danger in running into objects becomes risky...

    Probably was talking about sublight...Hense the fastes hunk a junk in the galaxy thing...




    Actually that's a Borg weakness...not a Star fleet weakness.

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    True to a point... but star fleet torps tend not to miss.

    .

    If programed to do so then the will be the lauch speed of the torp is usually to great to achieve those changes which is one of the reason it's so hard to avoid torps in the first place for slow, large vessls..



    Forgets the destruction of the Lantree and the torpedos used against the Borg in it's chase scene. The explosions covered a massive part of the 3,040 meter wide surface of the Cube...

    You just haven't been looking Sian...they're more common in Trek than Star Wars.

    As RA has said more tales from the Uncanon.
    Defiant is the stronges ship in SCI FI history with more kills than anyship in SCI FI History..You'll have to do alot better than hearsay and uncanon speculations.



    [/QUOTE]

    Utterly incredulous SIAN...are you forgettin the part where Worf modulates the shields to let the maquis raider through? Really you do the least amount research you possibliy can..
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2007
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  3. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Thank you Saquist for your support

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    Good to see another mate here who's willing to do research.

    Yeah, even I forgot that Worf let that ship in... it is a known weakness that was countered, but in this case they knew it was going to be attempted and let the ship in.

    I still think the Enterprise-E and the rest of the fleet would simply warp-strafe the imperial ships to death. After a few hundred torpedo impacts, there wouldn't be much shielding left.

    Even in a dead on fight- the enterprise would simple channel their entire phaser capacitor into a single concentrated strike on the bridge. if an A-wing can simply fly into it, i'm sure a high powered, long-sustain phaser bolt would be able to burn thru and bust a hole into the bridge. That may not put the ship out of comission, but the people inside sure would be

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    At least in Trek the bridge is somewhat protected (no real windows, the viewscreens are all video screens)
     
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  5. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

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    Okay first of all, a Federation Class X phaser array is 10.5 gigawatts. As in the same caloric release as 2.52 metric tons of TNT. Take the 12 to 24 strips you find on most vessels and you see a 30.24 to 60.48 ton bomb. While notning to sneeze at in our terms it pitifula insignification compared to ships who can witstand muliple 12.5 gigaton level hits. To put it in simple terms it would take 496,031,746 Phaser X arrays firiring for one full second to provide the same energy output of one Heavy Turbolaser shot. Yes you read that right almost half a billion.

    Warp strafing is an option, however unless your target is completely unshielded and not firing back it's not a viable one. The entire 9th feet could engage one Star Destroyer and fire all their weapons at once and the effect would still be negligible. Meanwhile even near misses from turbolaser and Ion cannons would be criplling Star Trek ships.

    This is like expecting a 19th century warship to take on a Nuclear Aircraft carrier Battle group.
     
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  7. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

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    Saquist as for you, I see you continue posting RSA's tweisted interpretation of everything. You have failed to do any research of your own and worse yet, outright lie of Star Trek canon. You can believe anything you want my friend, but it's just called delusion.
     
  8. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,938
    Where are you guys pulling these numbers from? I really don't know to be honest... from what I've seen on screen it simply appears star trek would lay some whoopass on star wars.

    And Q is still the big wildcard...
     
  9. Sian Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    69
    Read the previous 167 pages much? You haven't said anything new. Are you getting tired?


    Ah, well there's a problem. Canon sources state gigaton range weapons for capships and kiloton range weapons for fighters in SW. go back through the discussion and you'll find plenty of references. I won't go into it here. Also despite the name, Star Wars does not use laser weapons, blaster technology is much more energetic, and where but in the internal systems of the Falcon have you seen wires?

    Wookiepedia, the Star Wars Technical Commentaries, and the Into the Worlds and Incredible Cross Section books, in that order from least to most reliable are the best resources we have for hard numbers on Star Wars tech.
    Why do they need plasma conduits running right underneath the Okudagram controls on the bridge again?

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    I'm just messing with you.
    Okay, but these systems aren't in place on a significant number of Starfleet's ships by the time of ST: Nemesis. And it will be shown that even that won't be enough to protect adequately against an ISD's firepower.
    Separate shield arcs were always implied by secondary sources, I see no reason not to assume that they were in use, and Worf was simply giving an overall shield status in his damage reports. No problem.

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    ISD: 1600m, SSD: about 18km. The trouble is that one salvo from heavy turbolasers is likely to blast right through the shields and pulverize the ship, given that the Ent-D's shields were flattened by a single 400MW plasma blast.
    how long would that take? The Federation hasn't gotten trans-warp travel right after working on it for nearly a hundred years. And this is technology from a civilization that can cross a galaxy from end to end in days. (which even the Borg can't do) It may as well be the Roman Legion trying to reverse-engineer a B-2 stealth bomber. Sure, they're positive to get some good ideas from it, but they probably don't even have the material tech to replicate the components, much less the scientific understanding.

    Remember the Star Destroyer bridge design is a well thought-out statement, and that the bridge tower, despite its exposed apearance, is the most well-shielded part of the ship.

    considering the editing policies of wikis, this needs to be taken with a few metric asstons of sodium chloride.

    blah blah snipped.

    Absolutely False. What's wrong, haven't bothered to do even a little research?

    TNG: Season 2: the Dauphin

    DATA: Sir, sensors indicate the communication originated from a terawatt source on the planet.

    RIKER: That's more power than our entire ship can generate.

    TNG: Season 6: The Masterpiece Society

    HANNAH: Your ship... what kind of energy output is it capable of generating?

    GEORDI: We have a matter/antimatter warp reaction system, the most powerful in Starfleet... normally kicks plasma up into the terawatt range... what are you thinking about?

    You're so played out on this. Star Wars doesn't need to penetrate Trek shields. a few gigatons would make them crumple like a paper bag against a truck, as proven by Star Trek canon.

    Large sections of small, 100 meter frigates. Goodness. Amazing. BoPs aren't exactly impressive warships, so it's not surprising that a battlecruiser-class weaponry would just tear them to pieces.


    he thought he'd lost them. He hadn't expected Fett to be such a good tracker. Fett led the empire there, and because Han's primary hyperdrive was at that point out of commission, got there first.

    What's the range in light years of Star Trek superluminal tracking? 25 LY if I recall correctly. Hyperdrive has demonstrated speeds in excess of 10 million c. Not much time to track a target! About a half second, actually. That 'very limited' superluminal sensor capability has to still be at least in the range of 1500ly, 2 orders of magnitude greater than Starfleet's. It is known that the Empire has superluminal communication over tens of thousands of light years. You have to understand, that the difference between superluminal communications and superluminal sensors is very small. It's related technology. Radio leads quickly to Radar.

    you're wrong by so many sources it's not even funny. even the wikis. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hyperspace
    now who should be mocked for lack of research? Realspace objects have a presence in hyperspace. this is the whole reason that Interdictor cruisers work, as they project a large gravity well that not only prevents escape, but can pull ships out of hyperspace due to their collision avoidance safeties (which require superluminal sensors to see in front of them) kicking in.
    Ignoring movie canon again. if you recall, the Falcon was having trouble outrunning the ISDs near Tatooine.. Han clearly implies that the Falcon can outrun their pursuers in hyperspace.

    Luke: Why don't you outrun them? I thought you said this thing was fast.
    Han: Watch your mouth, kid, or you're going to find yourself floating home. We'll be safe enough once we make the jump to hyperspace. Besides, I know a few maneuvers. We'll lose them. Here's where the fun begins.

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=DRm0RfUGkS4

    :46, 1:15, 1:32, 1:35
    Unless the target is any significant distance away.. or maneuvering in a gentle turn. Or running in a straight line. if they're evading, forget about it.

    As I said before, RSA is the only person I know of who has been told by both Lucasfilm Licensing and Paramount that he is wrong about Canon in each respective universe. Please continue to reference his addled ravings in your arguments. Defiant strongest ship in Sci Fi history? *LAUGHS* It's a monitor! a gunboat! I won't deny that it's an excellent warship in its universe, but come ON. So you're saying that the Defiant would crush the Enterprise-E?

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    Worf exploited a weakness! one of many. wow.

    Reference manuals (Which are canon by LFL policy) and movie visuals which, contrary to what Saquist wants you to believe, do not disprove them. Seriously, the Empire (not even counting the other factions in the SW galaxy) consists of millions of inhabited worlds, and has hundreds of thousands of ISDs, not to mention other warships both larger and smaller. Even if they were individually less powerful than Star Trek vessels, (which they aren't, by a far margin) they could ram a 1 mile ISD into each and every Star Trek warship and still have thousands left over. It has multigigaton weaponry (the Entperprise D's total phaser array output is about 7 megatons per second with photon torpedoes in the 30 megaton range), the ability to traverse the galaxy in hours to days, the ability to annihilate fully shielded planets with superweapons, or render them unsuitable for all life in hours with their warships..

    As far as the Q continum, their power is not limitless, as one of them even admitted, just far, far in excess of 26th century humanity. Plus they'd be unlikely to get involved in what they would likely see as just another civil war between humans. if you pull in the Q, I'll have to pull in the Ang-Ti Monks, and nobody wants that. *wink*
     
  10. Sian Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    69
    Oh, i've got you on this one. Even if Johnny Cochrane were still alive he wouldn't be able to get you out of this lie.

    If you would do even basic research, you would know that Star Wars canon policy from the holocron states:

    C-canon is primarily composed of elements from the Expanded Universe including books, comics, and games bearing the label of Star Wars. Games and RPG sourcebooks are a special case; the stories and general background information are themselves fully C-canon, but the other elements such as character/item statistics and gameplay are, with few exceptions, N-canon.

    S-canon is secondary canon; the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes things like the online roleplaying game Star Wars: Galaxies and certain elements of a few N-canon stories.

    N-canon is non-canon. "What-if" stories (such as stories published under the Star Wars: Infinities label), game stats, and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered official canon by Lucasfilm.


    The Essential Guides are C-canon, which contains a lot of stuff! Generally newer works in C canon are taken over contradicting older C canon, and C Canon that directly references the G canon of movies is generally taken as high-C. Into the Worlds stands with its cutaway description of the sensor globes with secondary shielding.

    Games are at BEST C canon, and then ONLY in plot and storyline matters. and game STATS, statistics, and gameplay elements, like those magic testicles that allow a single fighter to destroy an ISD, are N, or NON-CANON. You. Definitively. Lose.

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    Last edited: Mar 13, 2007
  11. Sian Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    69
    I'm glad to have someone who doesn't lie and distort facts in this discussion. Welcome.

    Warp-strafing has a problem.. nobody's ever been seen doing it. they always drop out of warp, if only briefly, to fire. And in warp, well, fight maneuvering is stressful on the ship. The Picard maneuver is a short warp to point blank range. The Elaan of Troyus event involved clearly sublight closing speeds, so either the Enterprise and the Klingon ship were at warp, or there was something else going on.
    The A-Wing flew into the Executor's bridge after a concentrated barrage from the rebel fleet dropped her forward deflector screens. The canon sequence of events is as follows: (From Into the Worlds: Star Wars Trilogy)
    *Akbar orders the fleet to concentrate fire on the command ship.
    *Executor's shields fail. Opportunistic fighters swoop in to strafe critical command tower features, such as the sensor domes that allow the warship's many guns to fire in coordination.
    *Piett orders an intensification of forward firepower to screen the fighters.
    *an A-Wing crashes into the unshielded bridge.

    So can the Enterprise match the firepower of the Rebel Fleet at Endor? (20+ Mon Cal cruisers, 10+ Nebulon frigates, numerous smaller ships)

    I encourage you to try and read as much of the previous pages of the thread as you can stand. Much of this has been addressed before.

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  12. Saquist Banned Banned

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    Way! Dude....You're tottally the reinforcements here I've been holding off twiddle Dee and Dumb Twiddle for on my own here for a while...I've got them ont he ropes,too...going for the kill.

    Entirely possible....Imperial vessels are huge and cumbersome...Unfortunatnly Warp strafing would have to be done in open space away from planets and star systems.

    I believe Alpha Strike to be very effective against Imperial shielding.

     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2007
  13. Saquist Banned Banned

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    3,256
    Feel free to believe that the Star Trek technical manuels are canon despite the fact you've been proven wrong by Marco Palmeiri himself...

    I presume that's still stinging...as you still act as though you're in shock of the discovery...You've nothing else to fall back on....and it's sad how you keep returning to your defecation and vomit to consume it. It's...dog like...

    Must not have seen a single episode of the original series.


    Superior canon does not allow for the interpretation...sorry Sian fantasy world apart of Universal studios Florida but you're on an extend visit.

    Enterprise exceeds the firepower of the ISD just in it's Borg encounter and int the Lantree encounter...You're just...so sad...you just don't want to admit the truth that the Enterprise has displayed incredible fire power.

    I feel priveledge to clash with you with the information you never considered and to prevail against you and prove that Star Wars has no such firepower...You live in world that defies description Sian, you're trailing in the Wong wake and you can't see what's a head of you. meanwhile everyone looking head and seeing the truth that for some reason few have seen in the star wars details...

    It's immensely entertaining everytime I bring a truth and your eyes roll back and keel over...then you wake up the next day with no recolection of ever hearing it.
     
  14. Saquist Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,256
    I'm still 0 for 17 on the lie meter...but keep trying....

    From the holo cron? I've never need to know the canon policy..but as soon as you post a link...I'll compare it with what you've placed here. Nothing personal but you're shady and I don't trust a thing you say.

    I'll story that away for later use.


    You see I understood canon...better than you Sian...
    I've been right all along....A lie...no..it's only the truth that can be that bright. Have a seat...
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2007
  15. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    13,938
    Actually, warp drive DOES work very near to planets- after all, Starbase 001 federation HQ appears to be a mere few hundred KM from earth (if not much closer) and ships have been seeing warping to and from that before (a good example is when Kirk stole the Ent-A I believe it was)

    As for transwarp- transwarp drive itself is not the problem. it's simply that, at that speed, the sheering forces on a ship would tear it apart Something is mentioned about how Scotty's sabotage of the USS Excelsior saved her crew I believe. Not sure though.

    Warp strafing is entirely possible- look at when the Ent-D was chased by a borg cube after Q initiated the encounter. They are firing, granted, rearward facing torpedo tubes. In most (if not all) star trek games where warp speed is a usable tactical element, you are able to fire torpedo weapons while warping. Dunno if games by Activision count as cannon though.

    The big threat I see here is the empires reliance on unshielded TIE Fighters. I don't believe the Interceptor or Bomber have much in the way of shielding either. It seems it takes but one or two hits to down them- even an X-Wing, once the shields are down, are easy targets. Given the tracking ability of a phaser burst (the fact that the ship itself has no real need to manuver so long as one of the arcs can face the target) then Star Wars fighter craft are in serious trouble. That and look at the nebula class- it's exterior mount is able to field some interesting special abilities. My favorite, though it's a sub-cannon source (Star Trek: Armada 1 and 2) is the Point Defense Phaser. It's easy to imagine a 21st century tech making it into Star Trek, and the ability to detonate torpedoes at a safe distance would prove very helpful.

    Yuhzan'vong doval basins are an interesting problem. However, I think they could be countered by an inverted graviton pulse from the main deflector dish (eg, technobabel here

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    The weird things Geordi has come up with still surprise me sometimes)

    As for detonating a planet, I thought of something. The Enterprise-E simply has to do a long-sustain phaser burst to drill a single hole thru to the center of said planet. After that, simply drop in some subspace weapon (like the Son'a have) and watch the fireworks

    Another techno-twist is metaphasic shielding, as was used on the Enterprise-D to hide from hostile vessels in a stars corona. I would presume such an intense radiation source might give Star Wars vessels a small problem as their sensors have been rendered useless from the EM fields created in asteroid belts. Not sure though*shrug*

    The Q may get involved, if only Q himself- remember, he can stop TIME and he owes Picard big time- after all, Picard saved his miserable little life when he was stripped of his powers Whether he'll hold up his promise to re-pay picard is another story... and i doubt he'd let Janeway die

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    He loves her too much

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    As for warp being slow- remember, you can manuver in warp. I dont' think you can in hyperspace. That and there is the slipstream drive that some ships are having installed. And artificial wormholes (these seem to be more accidents than anything though)

    Finally there's the multi-vector attack ships- these would be fun to see. I doubt if they'd be able to pull the stunts I envision (you see the Ent-D flying along, turbolaser fire comes in toward the middle, saucer separates and the two halves go on either side of the incoming firepower

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    ) but it'd be funny to see none the less. On a more serious note, don't forget the ionic disruption the Ent-D used on the borg when they rescued Locutus (I think it was an ionic disruption... what exactly WAS the saucer section spitting out?)
     
  16. Saquist Banned Banned

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    3,256
    Theory:
    Star Fleet has mapped and forcasted solar and planetary activity in order to allow exit and entrance jumps into the system and Earth's vicinity. Space Dock serves as a Space traffic control tower to allow entrance ...Earth's system is unsually large...Several thousand AU's distance and to travesre this at impulse would be a long time indeed.


    Star Fleets test in the 23rd century were a complete failure...they don't explain why but there are multiple theory's.

    Trek shields are confirmed to be able to with stand far more heat than Star Wars before sub coming to the hull temperatures. Metaphasic shields is just a plus.

    The saucer was firing anit matter burst to obscure the shuttle from the Borg sensros...a distraction
     
  17. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Antimatter bursts? *shrug*

    True... but the enterprise-E entered at random and sorta went max warp towards the borg cube at the battle of worf (some numbers I don't remember)
     
  18. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,149
    Saquist again claiming that everyone but him lies. See in his poor mind Paramount canon lies becuase it argues with what he KNOWS to be truth. By extension he does not understand Star Wars canon becuase it is more complex than 'See Kirk fight shirtless.' He claims I deliberately lied, when if fact I did claim one of the statements was an honest mistake. Of course he ignores the fact that he deliberately lied, but I just won't go there.

    Saquist is desperately trying to get everyone to ignore Canon, ignore honest Observation, and ignore the creators of the two worlds in question. He wants everyone to believe Star trek will win becuase he says so, becuase that is how writers would write it. He has provided no mathematical proofs, logical proofs, or evidence that has survived even the briefest scrutiny.

    Here is some facts backed by respective canon's.
    -Defiant class vessel is one of the fastest vessels in the Federation. The original prototype sufferd a minor flaw, but the production model did not.

    -Heavy Turbo laser are 12.5 gigaton equivalent weapons

    -Turbolasers may be named Lasers but that is much Like a Phaser Rifle being called a Rifle.

    -Galaxy Class Shields are completely screwed over by a 400 GW blast

    -Galaxy Class vessels produce less than 2 Terrawatts

    -Photon Torpedoes have a maximum theorhetical yeild of 64 megatons, but have never displayed more that a few hundred tons.

    -Borg exhibit limited Strategic and Tactical ability

    -Q are capricious creatures who are as likely to harm their friends as help them

    -Star Wars Thermal Detonators, no bigger than a large man's fist, are 4 kiloton weapons

    -Jedi can move black holes

    -The Federation lost the concept of Ground Forces and support weaponry between TOS and TNG and never gained it back
     
  19. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Voyager's Elite Force were rather good ground pounders mate

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    That and I believe the Intrepid and Norway are both faster than the Defiant and have better range. The defiants small size limit's it's effective range.

    Thermal detonators are nice, yes. But there is the isokimetric (spelling?) detonator (the thing Worf used in Insurection)
     
  20. grimlockprime Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    35
    Has anyone given any thought to the fact that the Alliance/Jedi and the Federation are normally peace fairing and negotiators by nature? They would simply have a meeting of the minds, integrate each others forces to stand against the evils of the universes. Then the bad guys of each story, Sith/Empire/Borg/Hirogen/Jem Hadar ect.... would probably NOT get along and there would be one long bloody ass fight between and among themselves much less against the Alliance/Federation.
     
  21. Sian Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    69
    If the Rebel Alliance/New Republic made first contact with the Federation instead of the Empire, well.. that would be different, but perhaps not as interesting. They'd probably find the Federation to be useful and motivated, willing manpower once they've installed needed power, propulsion, shielding and weapon upgrades.

    Anyway it's fun watching certain posters try to writhe and twist around the facts and pretend he isn't beaten.

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  22. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

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    But according to Paramount Canon they do not exist.

    Intrepid is 4th ranked in Warp and second is only Average in Impulse speed the Defiant class beats it in both and in fact in Impulse beats almost everything with a .975c


    Are you kidding that was nowhere remotely close to 4 kilotons.
     
  23. Saquist Banned Banned

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    Last edited: Mar 14, 2007
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