Star Wars vs Star Trek

Discussion in 'SciFi & Fantasy' started by Pollux V, May 9, 2002.

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Which universe would win?

  1. Star Trek

    227 vote(s)
    35.5%
  2. Star Wars

    268 vote(s)
    41.9%
  3. Spaceballs

    47 vote(s)
    7.3%
  4. Farscape

    12 vote(s)
    1.9%
  5. Dune

    50 vote(s)
    7.8%
  6. Stargate

    36 vote(s)
    5.6%
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  1. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Actually, the Klingons and the Romulans and the Federation are ALLIES anyway now (post Nemesis). For the sake of the argument, we are assuming either both sides ALL parties fight together OR they act as they normally do, which would degrade into Borg vs Empire+Cardassians+Dominion vs Rebels + Federation + Romulans + Vulcans + Klingons + Hydrans + Lyrans + Mirak + Gorn + a host of other races.

    And there is no on screen proof of replicator technology- if you want to start dragging assumptions into this fight be my guest but beware- there is a LOT of trek-tech that is mentioned in series but never gone into detail or shown (eg, the fact that Starbase 001 SUPPOSEDLY has over four DOZEN pulse phaser arrays along with numerous quantum and photon torpedo batteries AND regenerative/auto-modulating shields. That alone would blow the DS2 out of space as soon as it dropped out of HyperSpace beside Earth, not to mention the fighters and combat shuttlecraft and starships and planetary defense platforms that are there)
     
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  3. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Oh, and HaloGuy, remember- sure, maybe 8 ISD's could turn a planet Molten. It only takes ONE DEFIANT class ship to do the same. Imagine a fleet of 5 sovereign class starships and a dozen cruiser size ships then with a dozen defiant escorts. Youch.
     
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  5. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

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    I am afraid you are falling into media sterotype and not actual science. Artificial intelligence is not the same as artificial sentience. Though arguable you could not have the second withou the first. An AI is simply a learning computer that performs all the non-emotional mental tasks we do. EG Analyze, Learn, Adjust, Adapt.

    Incorrect, you could program a PC to give incorrect information, but you could not program a computer to lie. It could not claim something that you did not tell it to do.

    I refer you to the scene later, when C-3PO was talking to him damn self, not to anybody at all.

    Also the scene where R2-D2 was running away he was obviously not scared as C-3PO had tried to tell him not to leave. C-3PO then hid even though R2-D2 alone was responsible for running away.

    Actually it is just a supposition that supports what we see. The C-3PO head could not fully control the battle droid body and the Battle droid head could not completely control the the Protocal droid body. To prove it I would have to examine both droids, which is impossible

    As for your shielding comment, how is that you know that isn't the auxilliary shielding that went? Main shielding, which would cover the whole ship had been pounded down by weapons fire already, then the bridge shields dropped later.


    Actually Dta has expressed only the emotions of introspection and curiousity, which aren't even emotions but rather cognitive abilities. But hell even the sex he had was partially becuase he was built and programmed for it. The other part being a drunk Tasha.

    No, as shown before it only shows he is great at mimicking emotions. Data had never before then had emotions. In fact his first bout with Anger was him killing a renegade Borg drone. And he was not programmed to Obey orders. He had certain protocols built into him, for the times Noonian wanted to work more on him. But he was never programmed to follow the orders of starfleet.

    Of course I lost you, I related something in Star trek to real life, and successfully at that. Try rereading it and sounding out the words you don't know.

    Not once have they spoken of elected officials. And I am sorry but if the elected body is that small then they cannot be accurately representing their constituents. Which is represented best by the Maquis situation.

    Sarek is too royalty, or did you not get that? Of course not you'd have to actually pay attention. He isn't a direct heir, hell he might not even be in the top fifty but he is a Royal. And yes Royals can be Ambassadors. As to Luwxana, what would you call the ship at the personal desposal to a royal?

    As for Sarek, do remember- he is Vulcan. Eg, tight grip on emotions. Royalty is an emotional trait. He IS of high stature and he earned it! Thus, he was rewarded with a good ship and crew... but HOW DO YOU THINK HE EARNED IT? As for Luwaxana, she's insane anyway *shrugs* but, if you do recall, there are MANY ships outside of StarFleet that people use. Most of them are smaller one or two person craft which makes SENSE as you don't need a large crew to pilot them.


    First Royalty is a genetic trait, not emotional at all. Second we have not seen tons of independant ships and we have seen none under direct Federation oversight. They are always associated with some planet or some other governmental oversight. As of TNG and beyond.

    But like I explained this is probably do to the heavily nationalized industry base.

    Incorrect, the Monarchy owns the yacht, if she steps down she doesn't get to take it with her. Second I do own the soil on which I have my house. The US government has protectorship over it, but even they agree I own it.

    Picards Vineyard is on a private plot and you notice that I had mentioned that you do not see a Federation business owned by civillians other than a Restuarant, Bar or Farm. Also obviously large manufactoring bases are still needed, not everything can be replicated.


    Of course not, but my original argument had stated that besides Bars and Restuarant and farms, there appears to be no independant industry or commerce. I assume perhaps a few other service type establishments exist, but not once do you hear of a Factory in federation territory

    Okay go buy a Aircraft carrier, Nuclear Submarine, F-14, or M1A1. All of them stripped of weaponry. And you don't get to supply good reason. There is no good reason a person with that kind of money can't by a stripped out version of any of those.

    You missed the point of my question, DUH. Anywhere in any court in this land a civillian gets a jury. And in cases where military personell violate civillian law they get a jury as well. DUH.


    My point is in a Democracy, you wouldn't have had to defend yourself. Even you would be largely immune to some doctor declaring you nonsentient so he could disect you. Yet in the Federation we had a case that was exactly that. Now a Doctor could prove you insane and mentally incompetent, but we still shy away from vivsection.

    Hello, they weren't tricked, there were only a handful of sentients on the planet. The Enterprise wasn't trying to tell the council they were trying to get hold of the very limited media. Which Generations proves still exists. It's hard to keep control on your Empire when your own Starfleet rats you out.

    Irregardless of that, the Planet was OBVIOUSLY the property of the colonists, not the Federation. They were not signatorys in the Federation so the Federation had NO RIGHT to do what they planned.
     
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  7. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

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    Actually only Three ISDs were sent to perform a BDZ of Bothuwai, the homeworld of the Bothans and one of the most heavily defended worlds in the New Republic. With the elaborate plan to take down one of the Planetary shield generators, the Three ISD's were considered enough to destroy all traces of civilization and all resoources on Bothuwai in less time than it would take for the orbiting fleets to engage them.


    The Defiant quote was simply a statement. Not even a plan or project. Plus it referred to one world and we have not been told the size or composition of that world.

    Also if one Defiant class was all that was needed why didn't Section 31 just steal one?

    Can't just pick your evidence.
     
  8. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,149
    Sorry, but Who's to say it wouldn't be Empire+Federation pwning everyione one. Imagine a Sovereign upgunned to using SW shields and Heavy Turbolasers and Captital class Proton Torpedoes.


    There is Novel support for some replicator technologies. Some of the construction droids produce buidling while tearing apart older ones. It could be a limited form of technology. Possibly conciously limited so as to support a vibrant economy.

    As for the Star base 001, it could fire everything at an ISD and the ISD would barely even notice.
    (Scene ISD bridge)
    ISD Helm. "Captain we have broken out of hyperspace on target."

    ISD Captain: "Excellent, Hail the planet. I have orders to make the Emperors offer first. Planet Earth, Emperor Palpatine would like to extend to you an olive branch. Accept over all political mastery of the Empire and we will allow you planet regional autonomy."

    ISD Tactical: "Sir, their Starbase has started firing upon us. No damage as of yet."

    (Scene Outside)
    Star base one is firing dozens of Phaser Pulses and strange formations of Quantum torpedoes as well as Heavy Phaser beams. All of them strike the ISD head on but explode harmlessly on the shields.
    (Scene ISD bridge)

    ISD Captain: Could it be some sort of celebratory Fireworks display?
     
  9. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,149
    Actually, I have always gone by visuals for both.

    I'm not the fantic here, I am merely trying to educated misguided trekkies. However I will have you know I have never paid for sex. Also if you think SW fans are pathetic how come they have significant willing to dress up as Slave Liea?

    Actually, not what I said at all, try trereading it slowly. I understand that the complicated thought process can trhough you off.

    1) Then why does he still act as if afraid of her and she doesn't act the least bit concerned of him
    2) If true why does she not stop him
    3) So, that should not stop Q from doing what he likes to someone who is not Picard. Also Q owed the life Dept to Data, but not until after Q Who.
    4) Obviously not true if he fears her.

    You can't get around the way he reacts to her.


    Witness First Contact, you will see at least one forcefield that does not show disruption untill it is touched.

    Emotions are influence hormones and vice versa. But actually it a unique set of biofeedback controls that controls hormones.

    Hmmm, so you take showers at 250 degrees? I call bullshit now. By you can get a good burn 180, believe me there.

    Also i have talked to monks who do that. It is not steal. Still an impressive feat, but nothing compared to breathing the 2000 degree sulphuric acid air above a lava field.

    I know those guys too, and the guys that go without go on slow flows where most of it has already cooled. They also use specialized tools to get their samples. While it does get hot where they are going, nothing even remotely close to the temperatures i am referring to.

    Actually more like imagine Half the ship trying to slip into another dimension but the fail safes on the ship kicking in and the devices that keep the ship intact during a hyperspace jump kick in. A massive use of power but a completely unharmed ship. Something just as likely as what your claiming, if not more so.

    Actually You have yet to prove the Rip will do anything to something without a Warp drive. No proof. When a rip destroys a non warp vessel you might have something.

    Hey, they decommision ships all the time. Just automate a few dozen and run some tests. But untill we have evidence it is just speculation.


    But even experts can occassionally be wrong. Zoologists were actually surprised when they discovered that Polar Bears are black skinned! But humans can and do err. That is why Visuals are king. Chakotya and Harry Kim might have been expecting the asteroid to be broken inot tiny pieces, but obviously it wasn't. By way the synthetic structure of the astorid should have helped it break into pieces. After all Iron is mallable, but ovaline shatters easily. So anything that should shatters Iron should pulverize Ovaline.


    They never state it in the movies, but they do in the novels and tech readouts. But your "it boring" argument is not a suitable answer. We are, for the purpose of this conversation, treating these as if reality.


    TNG Forces of Nature


    Okay realizing that you meant ST. Some have theorized that the testing of the first nuclear bomb would have been visible from the moon. So don't be too cocky.
    yes, but that was from the fact that gas rose up to the upper atmosphere and brought tonnes of dust with it. I'm talking the actual EXPLOSION itself. The EXPLOSION of the Photon Torp made it above the atmosphere, not the debris field.


    What they hell are you talking about. If you mean Skin of Evil that was easily the warp core of the shuttle. NOWHERE else do you see a photon explosion that is remotely that big.


    First, Star trek canon has argued with itself consistantly. In Relics the Dyson sphere had a layer of Nuetronium carbon alloy. Meaning it was acting as a metal. And there was not any stronger gravitional force at work than the weight of two stars totla for the who she bang. If there was any greater pull then the away team and scotty would not have been operating under 1 G.

    Second SW may call call it a heavy metal, but that is no different than how Ds9 treated it when they were going to infiltrate a base that had some in it's construction. Obviously no intense gravity there either. And in that case they did not consider even repeated Quantum torpedo bombardment sufficent.

    Then again since you shower at 250 degrees you must know better.:bugeye:
     
  10. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

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    1,099
    Except Han wasn't htere when the planet was destroyed, nor did he give exact scientific detail as just to how he tought the Empire could not destroy it. All he gives us is that the empire with an entire starfleet could not destroy that planet.
     
  11. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    Contradicted by higher evidence. It would take them days to do it. Also, no evidence of planetary shielding power.


    Yes, because we all know top grade specialists have no fucking clue as to what they're doing, even when their hacking the defiant from a jeffries tube...

    Also:

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    Its about earth size, stop bitching.

    You mean Starbase 31? Why would they? Starbase 31 is *part* of the UFP, they don't need to steal a Defiant. And we all saw how the Cardassian and Romulan fleet was able to obliterate-oh wait, they all got killed...

    Hey, he's got evidence, I stated this pages ago and you just ignored me, thus you did not wish to challenge it in any way, shape, or form.
     
  12. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Let me fix your scenario for you based upon the power levels we have been shown on screen:

    ISD Comes out of HyperSpace
    SB 001 opens comchannel with it
    001: Unidentified Vessel, state your-
    ISD: Surrender
    001: Yeah... right... *opens fire with a volley of twenty quantum torpedos*
    ISD: *breaks in half at the mid section*
    001: 0o' that was sad

    Sorry Scott, but what we see ON SCREEN overrides EU, and what we see On Screen shows ST having far better firepower and shielding than SW.
     
  13. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    Than that explains why you assume the Empire has more firepower than the UFP after the Empire vaporized a 40 meter astroid and the UFP blew large hole into a Borg cube larger than said ISD?



    Oh, don't even give me that crap. You where just sitting her claiming how the UFP is a horrible dictatorship.:bugeye:

    And next, you started these sexual insults, questioning the sexuality of trekkies, odd enough given you haven't even seen our faces. But tell you what, I'll show you a picture of me taken about a month ago, just so we can see how bad it is:

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    Shot with

    Ugly as sin right?

    Hey, can you bother me with your "complicated" posts and answer the seven or so of mine you just ignore when you get the living shit kicked out of you?:shrug:

    ...he's a fucking Q!

    Picard breaks it up before anything can go wrong, likely because he doesn't know Guinin's secret.

    What does this have to do with anything?
    I would hardly call it fear, more like concern.


    What? A demi-god like being who is unafraid of someone with lesser powers? He stated in Q Who that she is a danger, to Picard and his ship, he never said anything about himself. Guinin took up a defensive pose, because logically, it would be like a master kick boxer vs a thug on the street, the thug is still going to try to protect himself even if he's outmatched. Its called self preservation. And knowing Q, it wouldn't be pleasent where he sends her. You could also see it in her eyes that she was somewhat concerned with what he might do to her.
     
  14. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    My appologies on the water temperatures scott- I had meant to type 125 and 150. Most people consider food to be very hot at 125 and up.

    Also- Books are lesser canon to movies. If it is said, quite plainly, in the movies that an imperial starfleet cannot destroy a planet, they cannot. No matter how much you rub the books over your crotch it doesn't make it real.

    HOWEVER, we know from onscreen evidence (TOS and DS9) that a single Federation starship can slag an entire planet. Maybe not in very short order, but quickly enough to escape counter attack.
     
  15. Fettman #1 Bounty Hunter Registered Senior Member

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    :bawl: I dont think i'm ever going to be albe to sleep with image in my head, i'm so sad now
     
  16. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Lol @ Fett.

    *shrugs* I'm you're standard looking 19 year old soccer playing video game loving college going teenager. Gotten a little heavy set due to trying to learn programming and the fact that, since I went to college, there was nowhere to play soccer, I gained about 20 pounds. No biggie as I am on a decent weight and cardio training regimine that is working well

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  17. halo07guy Registered Senior Member

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    Actually, there is a very big difference between "destroy" and"slag". What Han meant was the TOTAL destruction of Alderaan i.e. compleatly blown to bits and made essentially non-existant. People who live under the Empires rule no what an ISD or group of ISDs can do to a planet. It is the same as knowing that a nuke can destroy a city, but coming across a group of radioactive and charred islands where a continent should be. You logically know that all the nukes in the world can't compleatly destroy a continent, so you know it couldn't of been those. After all, destroying a continent would take more then the entire worlds supply of nukes. Do you knida of see what I mean? ISDs slag the surface of a planet, making it uninhabitall, useless, and basically turning it into an even more hellish version of Mustafar. 1 ISD can do it, but a small fleet of about 8 or 9 ships is requiered to get it done in only about an hour or two. A larger fleet of about 250-500 ships can get it done in minutes. But the planet is still there, if radically altered.

    Still, SW seems to have the advantage in mass production. It is over ten times larger then the Federation, as it is said several times in books that the Empire and New Republic are made out of hundreds of thousands of worlds. Even if ST weapons are more powerful, they can still die the death of a thousand cuts.

    Though the SW books may not be considered the same kind of canon as the movies, they are still canon. You cannot just dismiss them as fan-fiction and saying that therefor, they don't count as canon. And however much you dislike the figures in the ICS books, they are still cannon. You cannot just wave them off.

    The borg problem about the large hole is simple to explain. The Borg relie too much on their shields for protection. Once the sheilds are down, they are relatively fragile. Their is proof of this as Federation ships often have immense trouble taking down borg shields, but once they do, the Borg ships are fairly easy pickings. They seem to have their ships made out of material that, while suitable for space flight and protecting against impacts, is not suitable for combat. So logically, a weapon like a phaser would do tremendous damage to the hull, even if the hull regenrates. If a phaser does tremendous damage to a relatively weak material, that should not be considered representitive of a phaser's offensive capability against an ISD.

    I can just tell that the above statement will get Kittamaru bitching at me.

    Personally, I think that that if all forces act as they normally do, the the Federation is likely to lose. It would have to deal with the borg attacking it while it is busy about fighting the Empire. So you get 5-way or 7-way battles during the war. The Empire likely wouldn't lose in that situation because it has far fewer enemys.
     
  18. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

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    1,099
    Funny you say that, because we actually can, given that there are *two* forms of canon. The first is Film only canon, and the second is the Film+EU. Given that the Film sets the standard, I would have to say that BDZing a planet is non-canon as its not within shown film Imperial capability.

    No its not. And even if this was true, they use metal tougher than any found on Earth. Metal tends to be tougher than rock and nikel. In fact, even if we assume that both are made from the same materials, the UFP vaporized more than the total area of a ISD. How do you explain this away? Simple fact, the UFP is several orders stronger than the Empire.

    The borg invade like every seven years. They don't even care about the UFP all that much. And by the way, given a new target for assimilation, the Empire is fucked if the Borg decide to invade them.

    And given that their only enemies where a bunch of rebels who had little resources, the Romulans, the Klingons and the UFP might just stand a chance. Hell, using a virus to kill of all the midiclorins (or whatever they're called) would end the threat of the Empire for good.
     
  19. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    ...
     
  20. halo07guy Registered Senior Member

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    400
    Read the what GL has to say about SW canon. The books all count as canon unless directly contradicted by the movies. BDZing is not contradicted by the movies, so it is canon.

    Force users also happen to have the uncanny ability to survive poisons and toxins. And then theres the fact that if midi-chlorians can be destroyed via virus, then why wasn't such a weapon made in SW. A Transporter might be able to strip Jedi or Sith of them, but even so, midi-chlorians are biological. A creature is not born fully developed. This true in SW,ST and in real life. And we know that biological things tend to have a habit of regrowing. Do you see my point?

    I'm starting to beleave what wikipedia said about Star Wars/Star Trek debates. It seems most people just like to flame, troll, and set up flamebait. I think the only sane and logical thinkers here are me, Saquist, and possibly Fettman, even if he is of questionable mentality.
     
  21. halo07guy Registered Senior Member

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    With the armor thing, I meant compared to the integrity of their shields. Their shields are extreamly powerful, and seems to be about 10 times stronger then the actual hull. Of course, The borg are known for hull regeneration.
     
  22. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Hey! I like to think that I think logically

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    You cannot deny, though, that Star Trek can, when needed, pull some mighty big fleets together. DS9 has some of the best fleet battles in ST, and that was with JUST the Feds and Klingons vs Cardassians and Dominion. Imagine the Feds, Rommies, Vulcans, and all their alpha quadrent buddies together. You could easily amass a few hundred thousand capital starships, not counting fighters, shuttlecraft, and frigates/PT boats (such as the defiant, norway, and other small classes of starship)

    Also, consider the Defiant has the same manuverability as a modern day F22 Raptor, yet at half light speed (full impulse) and you have a target that a human gunner (as is on the turrets of an ISD) is going to have a LOT of trouble hitting.
     
  23. halo07guy Registered Senior Member

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    Okay,Kittamaru.(Gives cookies and some cheese)
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2007
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