Star Wars vs Star Trek

Discussion in 'SciFi & Fantasy' started by Pollux V, May 9, 2002.

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Which universe would win?

  1. Star Trek

    227 vote(s)
    35.5%
  2. Star Wars

    268 vote(s)
    41.9%
  3. Spaceballs

    47 vote(s)
    7.3%
  4. Farscape

    12 vote(s)
    1.9%
  5. Dune

    50 vote(s)
    7.8%
  6. Stargate

    36 vote(s)
    5.6%
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  1. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

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    4,149
    Assuming uniform heating in a linear convection methond like you explain requaires megaton level energy to accommadate in a ferrous/nickel asteroid (Type M) of that size. Simple math of mass, melting temperature, and specidfic heat states that. However convection/conduction times for Iron/nickel would turn this into a long process as it just can't pass on the heat fast enough to account for the 1/15th second time we see.

    Simply shattering the asteroid would not do as we would not see the bright explosion. Instead all we would see is an asteroid breaking up, like we do in AOTC.

    However when you factor in work heating it makes perfect sense and is acting properly. The bolt hits with a massive amount of energy. The material at the impact sight is superheated and starts expanding at supersonic speeds. The resutlting vaporizing fragment shatter the asteroid at speeds exceeding sound. Now this effect generates and conductis impressive ammounts of heat while also absorbing immense ammounts of energy for movement. The result is a rapidly vaporizing asteroid thatflares up breifly and seems to disspate in a cloud quickly with no debris. This matches EXACTLY what we see in the movie.

    And this is all proven physics. Common knowledge to Engineers who have any experiences with deformations of metals.
     
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  3. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

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    4,149
    No, that is not beyond a doubt. The tower could be obscured by the cloud of debris. We could be falling victim to an optical illusion. If the script says the Avenger and we know later the Avenger has it's Tower, then either there was a repair job made or the tower was never shorn off.
     
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  5. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

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    4,149
    First of all that was the Enterprise refit. So yes 305 meters in length, yes. 80 meters tall, and the Worm hole was only slightly larger than it was tall. The Asteroid did not take up even half of the worm hole area, so I will give you 50-60 meters.

    Now the rest of it is where your observation gets lazy. The glow of the torpeo is indead 4 meter when oncoming. However as it gets farter away, you sart geting les and les iof that glow. Especially in a worm hole. By the end of it you are left with the half meter wide glow from the very back of the torpedo. which would matche it up perfectly with a 50-60 meter asteroid. Also note this asteroid was only shattered, not vaporized. need a lot less power to shatter.

    As for the asteroid it is obviously a Type C from it's appearance and thus extreme fragile.

    There might be a demionstration of high power in ST, but he power neded to do the feats is ST are below the low power scenes in SW.

    As for the Torpedo acting like a cannonball in Star Trek VI, you cannot tell me the Bird of Prey started firing low power shots once the shields were down.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2008
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  7. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Scott, give it a rest. You're saying the same thing again and again, not comprehending that you, sir, are wrong.
     
  8. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,149
    Prove I am wrong. I have provided evidence. All you have done is say i am wrong. Come on, it should be easy.

    Do the math. Look up the density, specific heat and metling temperatures of grantie, iron, nickel, lead, carbon, silicon, and tungsten. make the calculations. See what you get. Do it for 10, 20, 40, 100, 200 meter radius asteroids as novelizations speaks of them. Tell me what you get. It's not that hard.

    I've done the work and not even accounting for energy lost to dispersion, conduction, and fusion, the energy needed far exceeds your estimations. Now you go ahead and do the work and tell me what you get.

    Without the work you are just hot air.
     
  9. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,447
     
  10. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,447
    we have no way of knowing how strong the hull of E-A is. nor the yeald of this klingon torpedo. and if you really nead to hear it the shiel was "colapsing" it has not yet "colapsed". that is why they were rushing to modify that torpedo. they did not know how many shots could they take. and there is always the possibility of critical strikes or casulties.
     
  11. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,149
    Unless you actually pay attention to the scene. In which case it is evident that it is not much larger around that the Enterprise E is tall. Perhaps a extra 20-30 meters for 100-110 meters.

    Okay, this is where most people look at what you wrote and scratch their head. Your falling victim to perspective again. It doesn't seem to shrink all that much as it moves along as it seems even torpedoes have to accellerate. Now the Torpedo is not actually growing but the radiance and perspective make it seem that way.

    First of all did you not notice the visual distortions cuased by the wormhole. I know the rest of us did.

    Secondly as the torpedo gets farther away the radiance of the shielding on the Photon torpedo doesn't actually shrink, but less would reach the eyes of someone behind it. The light that is shining outwards has farther to travel to reach the observer. So we are getting the stuff that is heading our direction, and not as much for angles. This means at distances they show, we would be seeing just a little more than the tail end, if that.

    Yes the asteroid in TMP gets blown into white glowing particles, and large ones to be visble form a distance.

    The ones is ESB are vaporized as we see NO particles just clouds of superheated rock vapor.


    Okay, first of the work heating I described is a an excepted part of thermodynamics. The fireballs in space that were the asteroids in ESB are just super heated metal vapor. Not only that but we can see in movies and tv series that both Turbolasers and Phasers have a thermal effect. So on the last point you are just simply wrong.

    Your arguments are the worst type of misinformed science and are clearly wrong, though I do commend you on at least remaining civil.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2008
  12. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,149
    Okay, then if the shields were intact the torpedo should have detonated outside of the ship. As fior the hardness of Tritanium, we have no clue, but given evidence we have seen, it seems the material is more energy resistant than it is physically strong.
     
  13. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    13,938
    Scott, no, I'm not going to "prove" it because it has been done. Again, and again, and again. And each time you simply ignore it because you cannot counter it. Fess up - you can't win.

    And stop with the perspective BS and pretending to be a master of sciences in thermodynamics. Your math has been flawed the entire argument, you inflate numbers to get the results you want, and you simply ignore canon facts taken straight out of the movies.

    It Is Over.

    Fine'
     
  14. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,447
    eh who mentioned intact? i said "colapsingg".

    as for the physics argument... well look at the caps. steroids are
    turned to vapor. there are visible microscopic debries in the place where they were seconds ago and they move slowly away. judging from the size of the debries the could be up to 60cm in diameter. and we are actually given the hardness of tritanium in an eposode. if i recall it is 20+ times harder then diamond.

    as for your optical review on the torpedo (we see less o its front

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    )i advise finding a highschool book on physics. the torpedo is a raidal optical source laddy. it's glow should diminish with range as it does. being invisible after some time means only one thing. it's too far off to be seen. on could try and pretend to be a scientist and calculate the range the torpedo traveled but since we don't have camera distance or angle it would be mostly speculation.
     
  15. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    We can give a torpedo's size in the fact that it's just big enough to fit a klingon female in *shrugs*
     
  16. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

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    1,447

    the glowing orbs (speculated as shielding) are mostly quite larger then the casing. in this case the glow is at least 4m wide. something that should be clearly visible against the asteroid if it was smaller then 200m.note how in Wrath of Khan the Reliant is tiny when she pursuits Enterprise but the glow can still be seen from far off. this estemates the lower size for that rock. the casing is some 2m in lenght.
     
  17. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,447
    on wormholes, somehow they always apear "conformal". there is no way at least in this case to mesure its "throat". had the camera abandoned the wprmhole for a minute wile focusing on Enterprise we migh have known. from what we see on screen the view point is at times more then 50m far from the ship and still inside the wormhole. If enterprise is 140m wide this would make the "throat" at least 240m across. this gives us a 180m asteroid. and this is the apsolute minimum.
     
  18. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Oh, the glowing bit, alrighty XD
     
  19. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,447
    concerning thermal effects of TLs and Phasers. there is no doubt that some portion of their power comes from heet. it's just that it's most likely a small portion compared to the total destuctive power. all vaporizations on screen are unusualy "cold". Captain Tyrell vanishes in a blaze while Checkov stands nearby intact. tyrel should have boiled and exploded (since there is air to heet around). the astroids seam to explode from within. no method of transfer of energy known to man provides this efect. how come parts further then the impact become hotter or equaly hot. supersonic heeting is not the answer. if enrgy transfers faster then sound it will shutter the object. there for we must assume a fictional energy carrier .
     
  20. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    There is always Quantum Entanglement... that's a fun one. Maybe that'd explain the effects we see?
     
  21. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

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    1,447
    Quantum Mechanics is a bit tricky to tackle. but even if it explains the instant energy transfer, it still falls short on the lack of secondary heet emisions.

    if a was to offer a fictional solution (for fun fiction or novelization) i'd say these weapons emite some particles that pass through matter like neutrinos do, but disrupt some of the forces holding molecules or atoms together. seing how the energy released in the process is small in all examples witnissed, i'd guess they disrupt the weak nuclear force. or maybe they disrupt the EM or strong nuclear but take away most of this released energy, undergoing some conversion themselves. yes this might be it. it would explain why the chain reaction is limited in scope and short in duration. the other component of the beams could be anything from high energy gamma photons, ionised particles (protons, alpha particles), anything that could increase the termal energy of the system by a small amount, providing the scatering efect.
     
  22. Flectarn Unregistered User Registered Senior Member

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    Looks like fragments to me. (i magnified the section somewhat, inverted the colors and maxed out the brightness and contrast to make them stand out more, but they can plainly be seen in the original pic)

    *edit* having read the next page of the thread, i guess thats what you were refering to as superheated rock vapor. however, shouldn't super heated rock vapor be glowing... and less dense looking than that?
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2008
  23. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    That asteroid was merely cracked... we have weapons TODAY that could manage that effect with little effort.

    PHASERS, in Star Trek, stand for PHASed Energy Rectification weapon. From my understanding, they can be set to heat up a large pile of rocks for warmth, cook food, light a fire, stun a human being, kill with pure energy, or vaporize a small house with a single shot. This leads me to believe they somehow attack the object at the sub-atomic level.
     
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