Star Wars vs Star Trek

Oh, so I guess, in your world, simplified scientific calculations based on observed phenomena is nothing.
In your world, Creater's and Owner's definaition of canon is biased if it does not agree with you.
In your world Inforamtion gather from canon sources is of course invalid.

Good thing we are not in your world.

[/QUOTE]

I might add this all conjecture on your part and there fore invalid. The beam weapon on this platforms are Artillery pieces, anti starship artillery, obviously. The design reflects this as the piece does not seem to be for any sort of ground support. (who uses a direct fire beam for Indirect fire support) Now as the ships they are firing on are converted Federation Frieghters I would not expect them to be as heavily armored as a Star Destroyer or even a Corvette. Now, since the main reactors are in the ring sections I would imagine that is where you will find shield generators. Finally novel canon has stated several times that there is nuetronium in the DuraArmor hulls of warships. This is not disputed by any movie and is therefore canon, unlike your estimation for the firepower of the Anti Starship artillery blasts.

By the way I will point that even a 4.5 kiloton blast is more than enough firepower to Destory the shields of a Federation Galaxy Class Starship several times over. So even if your right, you still lose.

 

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What you think Armor and Infantry are going to use wide area explosives on a planet they are trying to take? Get real. That missle was probably the Star Wars souped up version of a TOW or Hellfire. A shaped charge detonation designed to pierce armor via and effect not unlike a blowtorch. The resulting explosion was probably the vehicles own power plant.

Come one man challenge me, don't post this stuff as it is too easy to explain.

 

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God, I love it when Meat-heads who invent shit becuase they don't understand it post.

First Star Trek consists of ONE GALAXY, the Milky way. The Federation and her neighbors are in Quadrant Alpha and Beta. The Borg originate in Delta and the Dominion in Gamma. The Dominion seem to have explored +/-70% of theri quadrant and control half, The borg control only about a quarter of their quadrant and even then have two Neighbors that cannot seem to assimilate. The Federation and her neighbors take up a small fraction of Alpha and Beta quadrants. Over all Space is thinly populated. Riker was at one point amazed that an Ancient empire had once had 2 trillion sentients. So I am assuming the Federation cannot have more than twice this and at no point do they even claim they have even the two trillion.

Star Wars has a Galaxy and a Megallenic Cloud. Byt the time of the rise of the Empire 90% of that galaxy is not only charted but inhabited. Coruscant itself has more than 12 trillion sentient inhabitants.

Okay, first of all, Shielding on both ships is strong versus the weaponry employed. Star Wars as 12.5 gigaton equivalnet Turbolasers and Star Trek has 12.5 gigawatt Phaser XII strips. Star Wars ISD mount 60 of these cannons and Star Trek vessels mount as many as 20 of their phasers. No contest really.

For canon info on the power of level of Star trek shields they are less than 400 gigawatts on the Galaxy Class Heavy Cruiser, one of the most powerful ships in the Federation.

Now for you rather exhuberatn discussion of Structural integrity fields, travelling at Warp and Main deflectors I will adress each point.

A grain of sand at warp 9 would have 6.6720572834404E+18 joules which is far less that the 1.0E+38 joules required for the energetic destruction of Alderaan. Of course that matters little as due to the nature of Warp travel no grain of sand, or even particle of dust manage to strike the travelling vessel.

Warp Travel requires creating a Warp field, a bubble of energy wherein the rules of space, gravity, time, and relativity are bent and ignored. Basically this bubble of altered space allows a federation vessel to ignore the rules of Relativity and move faster than light. Of Course this is done for everything iside the field as well. Now to avoid ruptures or accumulation fo debris the Main deflector scans out infront of the ship and moves larger pieces of debris out of the way and corrects course to avoid some of the nastier objects that it would simply take too much power to move. So in effect the Main Defector works as sort of a cow catcher.

Now structural integrity fields are what Star Trek ships use to make up for their grandios designs and shody materials. The Galaxy class Starship will actually sag under it's own weight in a gravity well if the structural integrity field is not active.

You will notice it does not take second but minutes and hours to travel the main conduits. Something that the Borg can't actually build but take advantage of natural phenomena. Minor conduits that are faster than Warp but still slower than even a class 20 hyperdrive are withn borg capabilities.

What are Betazeds, Q, Organians and all those other races with strange powers using? Does it seem at all different from the Force? Not really.

The Borg teamed with Vioyager to take Species 8472 becuase they were getting murdered wholesale. In the dominion war wasn't it the Cardassians helping the Dominion. Come one no faction in Star Trek save the Federation and possibly the Gorn, would unite with the others if they thought they could cut a deal with the invaders.

As for the Imperial and-Republic alliances worked in Truce at Bakhura (sp) even if the regional governer tried to backstab after victory was assured. The Imperial Remnamentand the New Republic got along fine and the Hapes cluster came to help the Republic, and if you pay the Hutts they'll fight.

60 cubes hmm wouldn't even be a work out for one star destroyer let alone Golan Defense Sattelites, Ground batteries, planetary fighter wings and Planetary shields. 60 cubes would end up so much orbiting scrap metal as to be pitiful.

The comparison would be like 60 knights on armored chargers with lances and maces against a single M1A1 Abrams tank.

So in your Star Trek wankverse the borg actually get less powerful over the millenia

 

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Statement by Nasor: Hostile/Biligerent- Ignored.
Initial Statement-TW Scott: Argumentative/ Lacking in Evidence-Disregarded.

The design reflects this as the piece does not seem to be for any sort of ground support.
I would concur: However Canon (Clone Wars) disagrees. These vehicles weaponary was used for ground support against the Banking Clan. Objection Overruled.

Now as the ships they are firing on are converted Federation Frieghters I would not expect them to be as heavily armored as a Star Destroyer or even a Corvette.
Statement of Star Destroyer Armor: Disregared-Lack of Evidence
Trade Federation comment: Overruled. They are as canon states. "Federation starships" In fact they are the central command center of Trad Federation battlships seen in Episode I

.
Statement of Armor: Disregarded Lack of Evidence.

Note: I will not take your "word" which has so far been good for nothing. You've lied on three seperate and distinct occasions. To support your arguments you will supply passage, page, book and author or be seen as incompetent to continue the debate. You have disrespected others opinions. Yours will not be taken on good faith.

Your statement is inconclusive and baseless.
You've pointed "out" an untruth. While Torpedos vary in antimatter they are rated higher than a kiloton. The Galaxy can take many torpedo strikes.

So even if I'm right you still lose.

The above photo prove that at least twenty years prior that Star Wars was on the same level if not lower (judging from the explosive content of cannon.) as Star Trek in the 23rd century.

These beam weapons leveled the City much as a Phaser would do in TOS. They show that Star Wars armor is nothing special. Viewing the ground based artillary in Clone Wars compared to the penetration of the Trade Federationi ships armor details that there is nothing out of the ordinary here.

Once again there is no colaboration of cannon with Wong's asteroid "vaporization" calculation. Those calcuations remain un substaniated in cannon.

 

You can ignore it if you want, but it doesn't change the fact that you would have to be a complete f*cking moron to think that the guns on a one-man fighter are as powerful as the main guns on a star destroyer.

 

man, this discussion is MEAN...

 

spaceballs wins because they don't have to follow rules.

 

Current course of Disregard: Sustained.

LOL!!! HERE HERE

 

i see that logical thinking is not common in the starwars universe.

Borg are from a different galaxy, statrek.com borg documetaries show that.

i was wrong, dominion is gamma.

and for Betazeds and the Q continum, those are completely different from jedi, instead of manipulating some area of the galaxy, NOT UNIVERSE, betazeds read minds, and the Q are omnipotent beings. one Q alone would wipe out the beginings of the beginings in the universe. you cant fight something you are incapable of comprehending.

as for borg and your big fleets with lots of weapons, what good are your fleets, when all it takes is a couple shots from an ISD for the borg to adapt? then all your 25000+ fancy smansy ships are only worth their ablility to ram into objects.

let alone that the real battle isnt really due to space combat, its due to many millions of borg that will transport onto each planet and assimilate. no army of the republic or empire OR ANY star wars era had close to the number of Borg available. Trade Federation and the Seperatisits may come within a two digit percentage, but they where beaten because the droids where inefective.

further more, there is not enough fighters, golan platforms, walkers, superweapons, defense platforms, ISD, Vic's,SSD's, Soverigns, to protect a fith of the planets in your universe. let alone enough in numbers to overwhelm all of the cubes before they adapt, find a way around your sheilds, and transport legions of drones planetside.

and no, your weapons and sheilds will be adapted to, becuase in starwars you cant modulate either.

you may also be reminded that the borg have a limited time travel knowledge, wich made them able to send a sphere back in time 200 years, and sent an advanced sphere and drone back from the future. it was so easy the enterprise duplicated it on spot and rode back with it.

IF you gained the upper hand, wich is not possible, the borg or the Q would just go back in time and wipe out your amino acids.

heck they wouldnt have to back in time, take 1 ship and do what picard did in " all good things..." put that spacial-time energy scan, and do it exaclty the same several days apart. instant anti time rupture.

OR use subspace weapons. enough subspace weapons used would probably disrupt you silly hyperdrives, as well as any travel. nothing in starwars has any defense against subspace weapons.

and remember, once borg land on a planet, thats all the more material and drones for them.

the one reason, you have to admit, that statrek has the upperhand , is their knowledge and command over space, energy and matter. forget troop anythings, forget weapons this and all the imaginary, fighting startrek is like 30 children fighting a sith, theres no hope in winning, because the sith has power over things they cant understand.

your sith and jedi are funny btw, they are killed easily.

 

Nasor:

Okay, an old time arquebus can puncture high medieval armour with ease, yes?

Just as a modern rifle can puncture body armour with similar ease, from a relatively short distance away, yes?

Does this mean that an arquebus and rifle are on par with one another?

Certainly not.

 

HiND-SIGHT:

Name?

As the Star Trek Wiki disagrees:

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/The_Borg

They are from the Delta Quadrant...-of the Milky Way-.

Obi Wan Kenobi: "The Force is what gives the Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates. It binds the galaxy together. "

This does not imply "just the galaxy". This implies -all beings-. Accordingly, to say the Force does not exist in ST is as absurd as saying Warp Drive and Q doesn't work in SW.

The Borg show no capacity to assimilate past their technological limits. The power of an ISD is several orders of degree higher than anything produced by ST.

Star Wars has several million inhabited planets. Coruscant alone holds more than a trillion indivuals - and maybe even as high as several quadrillion, from population density figures taken from the average city-scape, and the depth of the city. There are also several ecumenopoliae such as Coruscant in SW - like Metellos and Nar'Shadaa.

The Borg inhabit one small portion, of one small quadrant, of the galaxy. In thousands of years, they did not even conquer that sector of space. Star Wars have had -galactic- threats for 27,000 years, and space threats for 100,000.

Most planets have their own militia with space vehicles. These space vehicles are equipped with the same weapons as their larger counterparts, in lesser numbers, and usually with more self-contained weapons (such as torps). However, the electric warfare - which is aeons ahead of ST's - would make transport impossible. Accordingly, they just have to continue firing.

Go back 200 years and you don't get to fight a significantly less powerful Star Wars force.

The Borg did not do this in First Contact. Why?

Q would also have to deal with the Ang TI monks, which are only constrained by their moral codes to not do Q-esque things.

The only subspace weapon used in ST "homes in on a ship's warpcore" (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Isolytic_burst). Star Wars does not have warp cores - hence they do not work.

Unlike ST, SW is filled with melee and projectile weapons, that can slaughter the Borg. Vibroweaponary, slug throwers, grenades...

Um. What command of space, energy, and matter?

By?

 

And you are worng on the Borg as Voyager clearly shows they originated in the Delta quadrant.

Actually the Q seem very limited. After all enven they cannot wipe out the Borg, Species 8472, the Hirogen, Organians, or anything else for that matter. After all if a Q wiped out the beginnings of the Universe would they not wipe out themselves? Have they shown any ability to do anything beyond a solar system level, and even then seem limited. Hell the Q that kept hounding Picard was AFRAID of Guinan.

You don't get it do you, the Borg have shown NO ABILITY TO BECOME COMPLETELY IMMUNE TO WEAPONS. At best they have ways of increasing their defensive capabilities against the weak energy weaponry used by the Federation, Dominion, Klingons and so on. A Turbolaser mounted on an Imprial class Star Destroyer has a several million times the firepower of even the most powerful Federation Weapons. As in saying One shot one borg cube kill with no way for the Borg to scan it to adpat even if they had the power reserves to do it.

How are they going to transport through Planetary shields? How are they going to survive long enough against weaponry that uses more firepower than any of the Unimatrix installations generate?

Hey, six fighter can take a cube with no losses, easily, Planetary defense cannons can take a cube every three seconds if they take time to aim. One Imperial ISD can destroy 60 cubes in less than 3 seconds. Every planet has defense satelites capable of taking on ISD's. I think it is you who is SOL

Proof?

And they have not used it since, mook. One shot thing.

Yet they don't to the Hirogen, Federation, organiians or anything like that, why? Becuase it isn't possible.

Small problems several thousand different being know how to just think those away in SW.

Really, how do you know, oh that's right you don't your making it up.

Or a lot of dead borgs if they make the mistake of landing on a SW planet.

Really? Oh, that right you forget that Jedi Masters and Sith Lords can do anything a Q can do and that Ang Ti monks are comparatively powered. Your too busy in your own version of Star Trek called Star trek Wankverse.

Really? Didn't look that easy even under Order 66. Meanwhile throw a rock at a borg and down it goes.

 

arent you tired of this all the time tw scot? i read some of your posts, you are very intelligent.

 

Oooh would you be a Law Student? No scratch that a Law student would have looked at the statements of Lucasfilm canon and seen that Cartoon is nowhere in the range. He would have also noted that Novelization and Tech manuals are canon. You would also realize that a person can not be a Moderator for a discussion they are part of. So you are probably just a moron, but I hope not.

Yes, Trade Federation Starships which the novels claim are converted Trade Federation Frieghters. They are Ad hoc battleships at best. Like mounting some guns Supertanker, today. Not saying they are bad at the job, but as Phantom Menace Novelizations states they are simply converted frieghters and you will note that nothing in the movie disputes this.

Trade federation Battleships

Well I disrespect their lies, there is a difference and I am not operating on opinion but on fact. You will also note that each of the times you claim I lied it was you who have lied, knowingly or unknowingly.

As for the compostion of Durasteel from which Dura Armor is born: Durasteel was an incredibly strong and versatile metal alloy, created from carvanium, lommite, meleenium, neutronium, and zersium. It was capable of withstanding blistering heat, frigid cold, and monumental physical stress, even when very thin. Because of these properties, durasteel was used for almost everything, from smelting pots for other less hearty metals, to spacecraft hulls. Despite that, however, it could still rust. Durasteel containers were commonly seen throughout the Galaxy.

Source: Durasteel

Actually, you will note that no Photon or Quantum Torpedo is ever measured in anything but isotons. I dare you to look that up scientifically.

You will not that the targets in question are different. Cities fired on by Enterprise in TOS were Wood, Concrete, Cement, Steel and Glass. Cities in SW are Durasteel, Lammisteel, Plassteel, the first of which contian Nuetronium.

Small problem those are not Wong's asteroid alculations they are Brian Youngs. Second Wong was contacted by people who have written Canon Technical Manuals for Star Wars and is actually credited. Third using what we know of physics to explain a easily observed and described phenomena is the very height of canon as it uses the movie itself, jackass.

 

redo your math you tard,

if an ssd medeum TL does the 40m (dia) asteroid over, that dosent mean it can completely destroy a cube in one hit.

lets seee, 40m dia means a volume of 33,510meters cubed.

translation into kilometers: .000033510 km squared.

a borg cube is made of composites and alloys, wich react less than raw material to energy, and has a porous volume of 28 kimlometers.

to completely destroy a cube, you would have to fire 835571471.2 TL bolts.

accounting for the cubes porous nature lets say half that : 417785735.6 shots.

can i spell that out?

four-hundred seventeen million,seven hundred eighty-five thousand and seven hundred and 35 point 2 shots.

thats past the outer dfenses and direclty to the hull.

and the ship regenerates. fast. talk about fully regenerated from a TL blast in half a minute.

ill let you calc out how long that takes.

heck ill set up the problem.

time inbetween shots (t1)

turblolaser ARC number ( n1) ( not toal number you dingbat figure half that)

number of bolts required, ( n2 )

without regeneration thats T1xN2/N1

add N# in place of N2 where N3 is N2 plus, total time, divided by 30 seconds. ( regeneration)(

N3 = N2+( T1xN2)/30s

further more if you want be polite in this discussion, the forum gods might remove you....

the moral is, dont piss off Q....hell turn you into a girl.

 

Sorry about the quoting but my keyboard doesn't have the slashes required or even proper double quotes.

tw_scott wrote
'By the way I will point that even a 4.5 kiloton blast is more than enough firepower to Destory the shields of a Federation Galaxy Class Starship several times over.'

I thought the photon torpeadoes produced something like 40-60 megatons (on thing I read said 200 but that seems a bit much) and quantum torpedoes did atleast twice that.

I think the Q would be able to wipe out both galaxies. The don't because they are self ruled and find things like this to be bad. I am doubt they use the force because their actions don't follow the idea of the force were everything is connected. If they did they are far beyond masters of it since the dark side or the light side are never a thought to them and no amount of jedi will be able to stop them. That is to say even if the force is in our galaxy. I have tried and it doesn't work for me.

I don't know if hind sight is able to follow some of his preachings but you seem to be off a little bit in your thinking.

Another thing I was thinking, what about hand held weapons. In star trek their hand held weapons seem to be better. Every weapon going from stun to disintegrate. Now I know that star wars has the same thing but there aren't any weapons that can do all of it. Some that can stun and some that do damage and some that disintegrate.

One thing I would like to point out to a lot of people as well. Although so far I am taking star treks side, mostly due to my experiences watching both throughout my life, but one thing still needs to be taken into account. Star trek is a new tech system. A lot of what we see has been invented in the next 300 years or so. Some of it such as the disons sphere (not sure on spelling) was a little older. And most of star trek was thought out by people working in the fields of physics. Star wars is an ancient tech system. Hyperdrives are hundreds of thousands of years old and used by civiliyations that are now extinct for so long no one can even guess at who they were. Not to mention more powerful civiliyations. And although alot of star wars can be explanned with physics now when it was thought up it was envisioned. Star wars is based on a fantasy, star trek is based as a sci fi. Things like how the death star is able to power a combinded powered laser, rather then the kind everything else uses in the galaxy, to blow up a planet is never mentioned becasue we have no idea how. Star trek is all explainable, well most of it anyway. True some things may be beyond us now, such as How they manufature anti matter so easily or how they get so much power out of it but think about how much power we can get from a gas engine compared to when we first started making them.

Another thing I thought I would bring up now is the discussion we had about the stars and gravity. How star wars were more powerful becasue they could fly through the maw without problems and such. In the maw the gravitational forces were countered by themselves. That is why they had paths to follow where one black holes effect was cancelled by another. In voyager they approched an even horiyon so close they could sense their own echo and even became caught in its time shadow. That is pretty close yet they lived and made it out. I have yet to read about a star wars ship being able to do that.

 

Statement of Trade Federation ship classes: ACCEPTED

Your numerous lies are on record. Ignorance on this subject is barely tolerable. To associate your perspective with absolute truth is a lie with out absolute proof. Thus you lied.

Statement on Durasteel: ACCEPTED

Nonsensical:

-I've accepted your exibit of proof on Durasteel. However it's clear this is not the stuff a nuetron star is made of. Durasteel is very destructable as seen from the Attack of the Cones pics above.

Statement of Cannon: Hostile/ Disregared.
The conclusion "vaporized" is not canon and is not supported else where in the film. It is the sole observence and effect presented thus far.

 

Voyager stated that a 200 isoton yield would affect an entire star system.
Janeway declined this idea for the nanoprobe dispersal.
Seven of Nine disagree and overrided her.

apparently an Isoton is far greater than a GIGAton. This must refer to dispersal radius an not firepower.

 

If durasteel did use neutrons as you would find in a neutron star you would figure it would be industructable and would create such gravitational forces no one could go near it. you would need an escape velocity of about 100,000 km per hour just to get off the sidewalk.

 

precisely.

And since star wars has not displayed the ability to harevest a neutron or maintain the hostile enviroment on a ships hull to maintain the state of matter then it must be an artifically created neutronium.

Neutronium in it's pure form would be like looking at a highly polished surface, super reflective and impossiblity strong.

Star Destroyer armor is anything but glossy. The amount of artiffically created neutronium would be nothing more than an agent in a mix of agents in this alloy.

I don't see the point of bring this up. This actually hurt your argument.