Star Wars vs Star Trek

Oh and remember that crash in VOY:'Timeless'?

Compare that to the Invisible Hand's crash in RotS! Dude, that ships ventral section was ground down easily, on a landing strip!

 

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the movie overrules that, as it overrules that only 2 Calamaru cruisers were present.

 

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in this case it did not bounce. i spent 5 min to get that cap right before impact so i can proove you it does not change direction nor it deflects off htat wall.

 

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why would the ship explode of the tower is gone? i expect ISDs to be relatively more survivable then that.

 

one more post before i go to sleep, i just reviewed all the posts from today. in one of those TWS said that the anti-matter containement is vulnerable to ion guns, i presume because it is magnetic in origin. but how does this make it vulnerable? actually magnetic fields make perfect defence against all plasma and ion based attacks. and those magnets are suplied by the EPS system just like any other device on UFP starships, thus ion guns are of no use.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lucrehulk-class_battleship
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lucrehulk-class_LH-3210_cargo_freighter
the freighter and battleships are diffrent. They are half battleship half battlestation because of their size.

 

Providence-class carrier/destroyers are not built to lan on Republic Venator-class Star Destroyer landing strips, infact they are not built to land, except on specialy built landing strips. Think about it, why would the CIS build a ship that can land on Republic landing strips? Venators and land everywhere.

 

The field containing the antimatter would be generated by equipment surrounding it. This equipment would be vulnerable to charged particles (ions) since they electronic devices. Even if the magnetic flux return path surrounded the devices (and the power cables were not exposed) a stream of ions would interfere with the field requiring corrective action that the field generator may not be able to sustain. If even a small amount of the antimatter escaped the field, the machinery would be damaged... releasing the rest!

 

Wrong, there are no Mon Cal cruisers, they are frigates, freighters or transports.
Does this look like a Mon Cal crusier to you?

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That is called a transport
Here is a Mon Cal crusier

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I don't know, It probably have a self-destruct system. Again that is just a guess, because the Trade Federation battleship exploded from proton tropedoe hits at the reactor. Well, your right a Venator didn't explode when they lost half the ship in Clone Wars. They still won't classify it as disabled, they probably say it is destroyed.

 

There is no C canon. There is only G and T level canon for George's world. The rest is in expanded universe.

Thus, Phantom Menace, Attack of the Clones, Clone Wars, Revenge of the Sith, A New Hope, Empire Strikes Back, and Return of the Jedi are all canon, as are Geroge's novels pretaining to the six movies. All else is in Expanded Universe.

Now that said, we can get back to the debate.

We know that the Republic had a thousand Clone Troopers ready for deployment. Now, assuming they have one Republic Cruiser for every fifty Clone Troopers, that would give them 20 Republic Cruisers to batle against the CIS. Now, we were also told a million more were on the way. Now, assuming this number, and there was three years between Attack of the Clones, and Revenge of the Sith (if I am correct), that would give us 20,000 starships per three years, or 6,666.666667 starships per year.

NCC 75633 USS Sao Paulo
The Defiant class that was changed to the Defiant. This was put under Sisko's command on stardate 2375. In 2374, we saw the USS Reliant destroyed by the Dominion. It was stuck behind Dominion lines for a few months, and was likely built for the purpose of training the cadets on board. Thus, 2374, or even 2373 is a fairly reasonable number.

Her registration was NCC 74210 USS Valiant. That gives us 1,423 starships between the two. Thus, their ship construction is likely to be about 1,500 starships per year. Even saying it was two years, it would still be 750 per year.

Thus, assuming the battle takes place after Nemisis. The Dominion war ended four years before the movie, which gives us a minimum of 3,000 starships to a possible 6,000 starships being built. Comparitively, this would also stack with the starships that the UFP should already have. Now, Starfleet started to take precautions against the Borg in 2365. That gives them 14 years to build their fleet.

Given this, we can assume that they started to rebuild their fleet.

2365-2379: Massive building of fleet

Now, we also have the fact that before this, the UFP was at peace, and had little reason to build a fleet of any great size, although we did see them pushing out new classes.

Now, we know that in 2293, the Federation and the Klingons have been at odds for nearly seventy years. This would tell us that the UFP has been slowly building up their fleet for that time, although they would have also taken losses as well.

In any case, we get 2223-2293, that the fleet would be having a massive increase in power. Surely, the UFP's ability to build ships isn't nearly as high, so we'll go with 375 as our low end, and 750 as our high end.

We also know there was a Cardassian-Federation war at some point, but it seemed to last for only a short time. In fact, this turns out to be in 2362, a year before the launch of the Enterprise D. Given this, I suspect that there might have been a desicion to build up new ships such as the Galaxy and the Nebula due to increasing hostilities with the Cardassians, so Starfleet could still keep its non-agressive appearence. Given this, the strange flux of new ship classes at that time isn't too hard to get, with the two new classes and all. This would be 2361-2363. Assuming a build up, we'd get about 750, since this is still within the same area as the current UFP.

2361-2363: Cardassian-Federation conflict.

Now that we have this, we can determine what was built.

2223-(2271)

Ship classes
NX
Daedalus
Constitution

Now, here is the production of starships at this time. We know that there were supposedly only 12 of the Constitution class ships, which suggets to me that they mostly had Daedalus , and were slowly retiring the NX class. Given this, we'll assume they stopped the NX production in 2360, and assume it was put on the back burner, basicly a support ship for the Federation. We'll assume that the Daudelaus was just coming out, and was serving as their heavy guns for that time, with the Constitution line as a heavy battleship.

Thus we get 52,500 starships over 140 years.

Now, twelve of these would go to the Constitution class...but we can assume that starfleet would have made more battleships, and that the twelve was likely due to their destruction.

We can also assume that the NX, being easier to build and serving as support and scout ships, would take up about the third of the rest of the fleet. That gives us 39,338 starships for the fleet, and we can assume that the ship went through an upgrade, having phaser-lasers, and a shield grid as well. The Daedalus was likely the inbetween ship, serving as the standard cruiser for the Federation.

This would give us:

Constitution: 50
Daedalus : 13,112
NX: 39,338

Next we have the time where the NX would be shifted to a lower part of production, due to their weak capabilities, and the development of phasers. Thus, we can assume that during this time, they went to 1/4th production, and assume that no more Constitutions were made (they were stated to be pretty durable, and the UFP did all they could to save the class, so I can only assume that's what happened).

2360-2269:
Constitutions: 2 (replacing the lost ones)
Daedalus: 2,530
NX: 843

This would give us a heavy amount of starships, and show that the NX was heading for retirment. Now, later, we discover that in 2270, the Federation is putting out a new class: the Soyuz and the Miranda, allong with a refit for the Constitution. Now, we can assume that the Daedalus was put into the rear of production, given how we see so few of them in the movies. Thus, I suggest that the Soyuz class was meant to take over the roll as a supporter and a patrol ship. This would mean that they would have at least half the production line focused on this ship, The other half would be between the Miranda, the new heavy cruiser, and the Daedalus, their old line ship. The Oberth is also present, as the new science ship, a method of making a more specialized ship for science and study.

2270-2285
Constitution: Refit 12
Miranda: 140
Soyuz: 2807
Daedalus: 70
Oberth: 70

In 2285, we see that they want to retire the Enterprise, because she's just too old. They show us the Excelsior, which is the pathfinder of the class, and was likely being tested at this point. Later to be put into production in 2286. Now, the ship is pretty damn big, which is pointed out many time in the films. This would indicate that Starfleet would't put too much of a focus in that class, in order to keep their numbers high and not spread themselvs too thin. Thus, I conclude that they would only produce 328 of them, a heavy number, but it allows more time for the Miranda to get 984, which is a more proven design. The Soyuz, as always, would be pushed towards the mass produced lines simply because she's a support and patrol ship. The Oberth is still in production, but I put her at a lower point, since the other ships still do scientific study and such, and thus I conclude that the ship is a specialized ship only.

2286-2293
Excelsior: 328
Miranda: 984
Soyuz: 1000
Oberth: 313

Now, in this time, we get that Starfleet had dismantled most of their fleet, and would have retired most of their old ships. This is why we see so few of these ships. I conclude that they retired the Soyuz class, and put the Miranda at the rear end of the production line, since they became peaceful. I suggest that the Oberth and the excelsior were increased in production, since their line grew in capabilities. Still they had peace, but they were only working at say, 10%. So we only have 75 starships per year. Within fifty years, that still gives us 3,750 starships. Half of that would be going into the Oberth class, since as stated, the UFP became peaceful. This would also give us 937 ships for both the Excelsior and the Constellation class. I suspect that the Miranda was simply pushed out of service at this point, since she was more of a warship.

2293-2343:
Excelsior: 937
Constellation: 937
Oberth: 1,876

Now, in 2344, the Enterprise C was destroyed. I can only guess this ship was pretty new at this time, but that Starfleet was eager to put out a very diplomatic and scientific explorer, rather than using old military ships for that purpose. Thus, I suggest that the Constellation was also being slowly pushed out, as was the Oberth. Thus we have 14 years of production:

2344-2360:
Ambassador: 131
Excelsior: 262
Constellation: 394
Oberth: 262

Then we get to the Cardassians, where the fleet would go through a small build up. I also suspect that the Ambassador was pushed back in production, since she was more of a diplomatic design. The Excelsior was pushed back up, simply due to her reliable design, and the Nebula and the Galaxy were the new ships on the block. I suspect that they were the ships that quickly ended the war between the two parties.

2361-2363:
Galaxy: 12
Nebula: 278
Ambassador: 140
Excelsior: 470



I suggest that this was sort of a downtime for the UFP, that is until the Enterprise D met the Borg cube. This seemed to cause the UFP to wake up a bit, given that their strongest ship was no match for the Borg cube. However, they'd still be getting the production lines starting, up and they still hadn't done much in the way of increasing their defensive capabilities. I suggest that they spent most of this time building the Defiant but that the project was later shoved aside, due to her power problems. I suggest that the UFP focused on the mostly putting out new types of ships that would help them, hence the kit-bash group we see in the BoBw, but that they focused mostly on putting out Nebula class starships. They had the Galaxies down as their battleships, and beefed up production on that, as well as arming the Nebula with weapon pods. I suspect that they kept the Excelsior in simply because she was such a reliable design.

2365-2366
Galaxy: 175
Nebula: 350
Excelsior: 175



It was at this time the Borg attacked, and this caused a real shit load of trouble for the UFP. This time they saw that even about 40 starships couldn't stop a single borg ship, something that was enough firepower to take down a small starbase. Thus, I suggest that the Federation went to build new starships, designed from the basis of the Defiant project. I suggest they built a hundred of the Intrepid, Steamrunner, Nova, Akira, and Norway class. Simply to see what were the best designs. They also would have put a major focus into the sturdy Nebula class, and over 54x the production into Galaxies. They would also begin to put out the new Sovereign class, a warship purley dedicated to destroying Borg ships.

2367-2371:
Sovereign: 6
Galaxy: 550
Nebula: 1,200
Intrepid: 250
Steamrunner: 250
Akira: 250
Norway: 250
Nova: 250



With growin hostility between the Dominion, and the proven abilities of the Defiant, I propose that the UFP went into full warship production. Given the excellent performances of the Akira nad Nebula Design, I propose they put those two classes on the front burner, as well as building more Sovereign classes, but keeping it relatively low due to the costs of making them. The Galaxies, while a proven design, were just too much of a burden to keep up with the rest of the other classes, so they let up on that class as well. The Norway and the Steamrunner were more solid designs, but more usable as support and patrol ships, and so they too were lowered in production rates. Towards the end, they began to pump out the Defiant class, due to the impressive capabilities of the USS Defiant under Sisko's command.

2372-2373:
Sovereign: 50
Galaxy: 100
Nebula: 450
Steamrunner: 150
Akira: 450
Norway: 150
Defiant: 150



When the Dominion war started, the UFP was getting pounded hard. We know they started the Prometheus project, and it was later put into production (given its high level of success and use in End Game). This gives me reason to believe that the Federation dropped the Galaxy class production donward, since it was too much of a multi-platform to keep up during the war. The Sovereign was also kept at its pace, but simply due to the sheer size of the class. The Prometheus was also kept low, since it was a very difficult design, and had alot on her. I also suspect that the other classes were put into full production, with the Steamrunner and Norway being put into a high level of production, but still kept lower than the more succesful Defiant, Akira, and Nebula class.

2374-2379:
Sovereign: 50
Galaxy: 50
Nebula: 820
Steamrunner: 620
Akira: 820
Norway: 620
Defiant: 720
Prometheus: 50

Now, this is the grand total:

Miranda: 1,124
Exceslior: 2,172
Constellation: 1,331
Ambassador: 271

Galaxy: 887
Nebula: 3,098

Sovereign: 106
Intrepid: 250
Steamrunner: 1,020
Akira: 1,520
Norway: 1,020
Nova: 250
Defiant: 870
Prometheus: 50

Now, naturally, all of these ships didn't make it through the years. the Excelsior, Miranda, and Constellation have likely lost a hundred of their number before the Dominion War ever begun. During the war, the Miranda and Excelsior class really took a pounding. I suspect that only a 4th of the Miranda's survived the war, leaving them with 256 starships. Furthermore, I suspect only half the Excelsiors survived as well. The Constellations I also suspect to have taken just as heavy losses as the Miranda class, so they'd be around 307 starships. The Ambassador class took some heavy hits during its time, but it isn't a warship, so I only say about fifty were destroyed.

Miranda: 256
Exceslior: 1,036
Constellation: 307
Ambassador: 231

The Galaxy and the Nebula were on the front lines throughout the Dominion War, with one being a heavy battleship, and the other being a heavy cruiser. Again, I assume that only half of them made it to the current date.

Galaxy: 443
Nebula: 1,549

During the war, we saw very little of the Intrepid class, so I can only guess that it wasn't meant for war, but likely still took a hit in numbers. I'm guessing only a 150 remain. The Steamruner herself also took a poudning, as did the Norway, so I put them both at 510. The Nova is a science ship, so I suspect that for the most part, it wouldn't have been in the war, and give it a loss of only 50. The Akira class was heavely used in the war, but due to its more combat focused design, I marked only a 4th of them being destroyed total. That would leave the UFP with 1,140 Akira classes. As for the Defiant, we saw them handled very well throughout the series, so I also put them down as having only lost a 4th of their number. For the Prometheus and the Sovereigns, I suggest only about a ten percent loss, given their increased firepower.

Sovereign: 95
Intrepid: 150
Steamrunner: 510
Akira: 1,140
Norway: 510
Nova: 200
Defiant: 625
Prometheus: 45

Low End Grand Total: 7,097
High End Grand Total: 14,194

23rd Century Classes:
Miranda: 256
Exceslior: 1,036
Constellation: 307

Total: 1,599

24th Century:
Ambassador: 231
Galaxy: 443
Nebula: 1,549
Sovereign: 95
Intrepid: 150
Steamrunner: 510
Akira: 1,140
Norway: 510
Nova: 200
Defiant: 625
Prometheus: 45

Total: 5,498

 

Agreed, I will keep to Republic and CIS.

" We have two hundred thousand units ready, and a million more is on the way "- Taun We. They got the millions more less then a year later, Clone Wars lasted 4 years. The Grand Army of the Republic have more then 2 million troopes before the Clone Wars ended. So assuming that your guess for 1crusiers per 50 trooper its correct, it is 4000 Cruisers ( they don't only make crusiers, they make other weapons too ), and 2 million+ troops at the end of the Clone Wars so 400000000 Cruisers, they make the crusiers and reserve them insted of making them on the spot. Remember they built the army in 10 years by 1 system.

Their main battleships are neither Venator-class or Acclamator-class Star Destroyers, so 400,000,000 Star Destroyers right there from 10 years by one system. Now CIS Navy is about twice the Republic Navy's but have no Star Destroyers, only Trade Federation Lucrehulk-class battleships and Providence-class carrier/destroyers, Commerce Guild Recusant-class light destroyers, and InterGalactic Banking Clan Munificent-class star frigates, as well as numerous other classes and vessels donated from various races and corporations. Now both of those armies are built within 10 years. So assuming 400,000,000 Star Destroyers and 800,000,000 Trade Federation Lucrehulk-class battleships and Providence-class carrier/destroyers, Commerce Guild Recusant-class light destroyers, and InterGalactic Banking Clan Munificent-class star frigates, and other ship classes.

Now the Imperial Navy, there is mainly th ISD I, ISD II. There are Venators and a SSD. It is almost impossible to calculate the size.

 

A nice try, but you make several errors. The first is that a a million on the way is a very vaque comment. We have no idea how long she meant. A million could have been the next ten years for all we know. And it makes another problem because if they couild build 1 million troops, in those four years, it means they should have at least two million ready. Thus at best, we can assume that those millions were the rest of the order. Thus, we can assume 250,000 clones per year, assuming they were finishing up the other batches.

In any case, that would be 250,000 divided by 50 = 5,000 per year. That would be multiplied by four, which takes us to 20,000 starships per four years.

Assuming the Empire for some reason decided to build up its fleet for about 20 years, that would be 100,000 starships.

And Sky, your calculation is absurd. There is no reason to build up that large of an army, especially since we know that the SW races are easily kept in line. I mean c'mon, a Jedi order, even assuming thousands of Jedi, was easily strong enough to keep most of the races in line under Republic Law. In fact, look at the Sentate in the prequals. There are at best, only five thousand pods there, and even assuming two races per pod (yeah right), that's at best 10,000 races that serve under the Republic. Taht's a amazingly low population for an entire galaxy full of life.

Thus, a million or two soldiers would be enough to ensure a iron fisted ruler.

 

Ion guns were shutting down systems when Voyager encountered them and they used bio-gel packs for crying out loud. The bolts were not even remotely as large or powerful as the ones seen in ESB. So it stands to reason that Heavy ion cannons aboard an ISD would shut down massive amounts of systems with each shot. Especially since the power level of each shot would be more than the Enterprise D could generate every second.

 

Ah, but your vessels do not have neutronium impregnated hulls. Your ships crumple like aluminum foild when they hit anything and can;t even slow down a kamikaze fighter on a colision course. The only ship that might down apreciable damage while ramming would be the Defiant class, but even then it would likely not be effective against shields.

 

You mean the ones found on moons? You do realize, that neutronium requires an immense level of gravity in order to cease from decaying don't you? And that in order for it to have been on a starship, the inhabitants would be crushed within seconds? Of course, even assuming SW scientists (if you can call them that) could have found away around it, then why was it found on a moon, instead of a Neutron Star? And if it was there from a ship that crashed of some such, why hadn't it decayed? And if the moon had sufficient gravity in order to stop it from decaying, why pray tell wasn't Han a smudge on the surface the moment he stepped foot on it?

And since pray tell, was neutronium hulls part of canon? Oh, that's right. They aren't.

That's kamikaze fighter was moving at high speeds, and is more than enough to cause a shit load of damage if it rammed into something. Not to mention, the ship's shield were down.

Yes, because ISD ships have been so effective in warding off rammings. Like in Return of the Jedi, where the bridge shields weren't taken down, and the fighter didn't ram into the bridge, thus causing it to spiral out of control and explode upon impact once hitting the Death Star.

Oh...

 

Episode and evidence?

Really now? Because the only thing we see those things hit are ISDs, which in fact, can only put out a megaton and a half with their heavy turbo lasers. Not to mention that you are again, comparing sizes as if they actually ment something between two sci-fi. In fact, Star Trek openly defies that when it stated that the new Defiant warpcore was just as powerful as the Galaxy warpcore.

A conclusion derived from an uproven claim, and perpetuated under the idea that something which clearly isn't canon, is, and then ignoring evidence that shatters that illusion. Your entire argument is thus, an illusion based on the idea that Lucas strings riddles throughout his quotes, that Saxton wasn't masturbating with one hand when he wrote ICS, and that anyone who is actually reading this is convinced by anything you say, despite the fact that you've been proven to lie, twist quotes, ignore evidence and posts that prove you wrong, and generally insult others (the whole 'I've got a life and you don't because you're still argueing this with me' is nothing short of apalling and pathetic. We all have lives, and this is something I assume we do for fun, or because we enjoy the challenge of debate...or we hate to be wrong. I myself have a girlfriend, a job, go to college, and generally a lot of other stuff) when it suits you.

Okay, now can you prove this claim?

 

Neither do your ships you twat... at least not Trek style impenetrable Neutronium which, as we know, would make your ships immune to all firefights if this was true.

And Scott, if you watched Trek at all, you'd know Ramming has been used MULTIPLE times to great success... even the mighty Scimitar had her back all but broken when the near-crippled Ent-E rammed her with around 25% of her impulse power available!

 

Scott, Neutronium in Star Wars was found on a moon... thus, it is not the unholy stupid strong Neutronium of Star Trek that is ONLY stable under the IMMENSE gravity of a NEUTRON STAR.

The same kind of star that would turn your vaunted DS2 into a SMEAR!

If that WAS neutronium, then it was decayed and USELESS.

 

can you tell me what episode was that? i'd like to wach it.