Star Wars vs Star Trek

Discussion in 'SciFi & Fantasy' started by Pollux V, May 9, 2002.

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Which universe would win?

  1. Star Trek

    227 vote(s)
    35.5%
  2. Star Wars

    268 vote(s)
    41.9%
  3. Spaceballs

    47 vote(s)
    7.3%
  4. Farscape

    12 vote(s)
    1.9%
  5. Dune

    50 vote(s)
    7.8%
  6. Stargate

    36 vote(s)
    5.6%
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  1. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    Bullshit. The visuals show that the output of a proton torpedo wasn't better than tossing grenades at a target. There is no evidence that R2D2 even has the ability to alter the yield of a torpedo.

    Thus, your lack of evidence defeats you.


    Slave I is a small transport ship owned by a god damn rich bounty hunter who made it big time with a clonning deal. One would hope his equipment would be be more powerful.
     
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  3. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

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    Fox you are deluding yourself just a little. Star trek weaponry has not proved itslef to superior to anything except today's weaponry and even that is not completely true.

    Canon fact: Star Wars Heavy Turbo Laser 12.5 gigatons. It's canon no matter how you interpret it. Rember Lucasfilm sets canon policy, not interviews or website managers.

    Canon Fact: Enterprise D was vulnerable to 400 gigawatts of particle energy. Yes it was a 'magical' being but the crew EXPECTED 400 gigawatts to do damage. Picard EXPECTED fatalities from the damage and was suprised to only have wounded. So that negates the whole "but-it-was-magic!" arguemnt.

    Canon Fact: Enterprise-D shields was completely unable to protect the vessel from atmospheric friction.

    Canon Fact: When in the asteropid that the Pegasus was trapped, the crew was genuinely concerned that a zero-g cave in would cripple or destroy the ship. Riker commented that it would take EVERY last torpedo the ship carried to be able to destroy the asteroid when outside.

    Canon fact: The Enterpise-D warp core, one of the most powerful Starfleet ever made, was capable of 12 billion gigawatts. Even if the ship was running in low power mode and using one tenth the power of normal that still puts maximum at 120 billion gigawatts.However the engine was producing more power as the lights along the warp core were going roughly a third as fast as it does when the ship goes peddle to the metal.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2008
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  5. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

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    1,099
    Sorry, but that's a load of bullshit, we have it constantly used as a method of the yield of a weapon. The Omega Directive states this:

    KIM: "This looks like enough for a 50 isoton explosion."

    TUVOK: "Fifty-four to be exact."

    Your claim is retarded.

    Hell, even taking the 81.9 megatons as the output for a six isoton explosive, we can plainly see the UFP can make stronger explosives, such as the 136.5 megaton explosive, or the 80 isoton explosive, which would be 1,092 megatons.

    And that's all still low end. High end suggests that even the basic one isoton explosive is 88.9 megatons, and that a class six.two-five explosive can perform about 555 megatons.
     
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  7. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

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    4,149
    Where was a torpedo using in the hangar. In fact where was a torpedo used in any place where we do not see either large explosion or them going down a exhaust port, while making a 90 degree turn at several thousand meters per second.


    Some people have odd preferences. He did use concussion missiles and that nasty seismic charge, which you will note was FAR more impressive than anything Enterprise has ever deployed. He liked having his laser cannons fire as quickly as possible, rather than have pure power. It's a preference thing.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2008
  8. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    Bullshit. We have at least two different calculations that puts Class VI torps within the 80-100 megaton range at least.

    Wow, we got you down to 12.5 huh? Guess the 200 gg was getting old? Well, not to worry, we can get you down a little further:



    http://www.canonwars.com/weblog/2008/04/once-again-yet-another-new-lucas-quote.html

    Actually, given that a phaser can magically vaporize someone with less than a megawatt of energy, this isn't surprizing. That 400 could easily turn into 60,000 gigawatts, and that's assuming some other effects weren't in play.

    Furthermore, we know that they can withstand higher firepower than this. Stop being a retarded douche by cherrypicking.

    In what?

    Watch the episode again. Riker wanted to destroy the asteroid, and was panicking. He suggested they destroy it, and then pulled that calculation out of his ass, despite the fact that most of the time, he has no idea what he's talking about.

    And furthermore, being crushed by five kilimeters of rock isn't a good thing, at all.

    And at most, HTL's can only put out 1.5 megatons, or 3 megatons if we're really nice.
     
  9. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    Phantom Menace, where Anakin fires two proton torpedoes at the shield generators, causing an explosion you could get from a 2 kiloton handgrenade.






    Does it hurt when you spit up bullshit?
     
  10. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    So SW fighter pilots ARE retards.

    Thanks. But it still doesn't help your position.



    Provide evidence that R2D2 can alter the setting on the laser cannons, and the proton torpedoes.

    All other interaction is against shielded targets, which likely cause some funky effects. The instance in the shuttle bay is more solid, and isn't in the vaccum of space.

    Provide evidence that the light turbolasers were the ones to fire upon the asteroids in ESB. I determined that calc on the idea that the light guns were made to destroy fighters and bombers.

    And as for the Death Star example, it was specifically stated that the Death Star was designed to hold of cap ships, not fighters. Thus, there would be no reason to have light turbo lasers on it; because they would be worthless against cap ships. Thus, what destroyed the fighters was actually medium or heavy turbolasers.

    Sorry, but we know that fighters pose some sort of threat to capital ships, otherwise there would be no point in having them if they didn't. It may not prove to destroy a capital ship, but they do pose a threat, if small.


    Or more likely, he aimed at something, which caused a larger explosion. Like perhaps power lines leading to TL batteries?

    No I'm not. You're trying to twist my post into claiming this. I stated three different yields. The first is for fighters, which would be anywhere between one kiliton, to four kilitons. Possibly six or eight. These are to destroy fighters, you know, those pesky things zipping around? Yeah, those.

    The second calc is based off the ESB asteroid. It was about 20 meters long, and thus, even assuming vaporization, it would have only been 59.9 kilotons. Even assuming the insane 40 meters, we still only get, 479.9 kilitons. For the highest one, I went to Darkstar's calculations on HTL's, which could at most, put out 1.5 megatons in the effort of destroying a small town (as described by George Lucas). Putting it up a bit higher, we can get 3 megatons, assuming their firepower doubled in twenty years.

    You fail.
     
  11. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    Also, low end calcs, assuming only a 10 kilometer asteroid, like one found in Pegasus:

    11.11 megatons per isoton. 6.25 isotons per photon in Voyager's 200 isoton total, so that comes down to:

    Class VI photon torpedo: 69.4375 megatons.

    That's what Voyager usually shot out, and concures with lower figures.

    Which still puts it over the top of Imperial firepower.
     
  12. Saquist Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,256
    It's just not his way.
    The encouraging facts for Star Wars are those Captial ship weapon emplacements which blew the ISD to kingdom come. There was no visible damge on the vessel before it blew so the weapons must be substantial.

    I agree with your first point. There were issues with what speical effects could accomplish in 1977. So as a result we see certain limitations on screen. You're right on that one...

    However I'm not sure where you're going with the second point.

    I wholeheartedly agree. Scott has proven effectively that the tyipical starwars starship level ship is horibbly deficient compared to Star Trek.

    That's irrelevant. Star Wars shields are on record as not being a full coverage defense according to Star Wars.com.

    Most starships carry some form of shielding technology, to protect it not only from the natural hazards of space travel, but also enemy attacks. Since smaller ships have limited power with which to generate deflector shields, they often only protect set areas, or arcs, of the vessel and rely on maneuverability to avoid fire.

    Seeing as the shots from the Droid tank could be seen from inside the Hanger in another scene it makes your lie look even worse as it propose the pilots were completely incompetent or unconscious, even blind. A pity a child new to raise shields in the presence of enemies but a fully trained pilot did not.
     
  13. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,149
    Actually all that is proven is that Star Wars Fighters are weaker than Star Wars Capital ships. Which is logical.


    I was not aware Starwars.com was considered canon. It is a storehouse of canon material but has in the past been incorrect. We do know that the naboo fighters had full coverage. We also know that X-wings and Y-wings did as well and were able to shunt all deflector power to specific arcs. So what is your point here. That Star Wars shield design for fighters is weaker than Star Wars capital ships? Fine, as it only logical.

    Well, yes the tanks shots were visible fiorm inside the hangar, however most of the pilots were busy manually flying their fighter during take off, unlike Skywalker. They had less than a quarter second to respond. To give you a picture of human response time in drag racing when you know you are supposed to hit the gas pedal at the green light and are given a predictable pattern to discern when green will light up, it still takes half a second to press the gas. That is considered perfect reflex time. Now add in enemy fire that was not expected and the the deciosn to either juke or raise shields and we are talking three quarters of a second minimum and probably another second before shields raise.
     
  14. Flectarn Unregistered User Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    347
    if the beams are unidirectional shouldn't it have kept on burning straight through the realitivly thin skin of the fighter? sort like the enterprises alpha strike in Q-who? It seems like most of the time when an energy weapon in star wars impacts something theires a flashy explosion and not much to show for it afterwards (blasters especially are like this, the exception being the mos eisly spaceport)

    It's a little different in the movie, where he says something akin to "this autopilots going to get us both killed" and then r2 turns it off, but the point is the ship WAS on autopilot prior to this point... like in the hanger.

    a*edit* hiuh--- read up a few lines earlyer in the scrpit... apparently anakin had control in the hanger... but not afterwards. strange.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2008
  15. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    Basicly, Anakin's fighter was on auto-pilot, R2 turned it off, and then Anakin got show down. He landed in the fighter bay of the Trade Federation ship, where the ship went offline. R2 managed to fix the problem, and Anakin raised the shields before they were shot on. Anakin then fired a few laser blasts, and then with an "oops", fired two proton torpedoes into the shield generator...which was located within the fighter bay.
     
  16. SkywalkerJedi アスラン・ザラ ( Athrun "Alex" Zala ) Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,493
    Thats Home One, it is no average Capital ship.




    This is what I am trying to say, the reason they are a triangle shape because, if you have turbolasers at the sides, they can all target the front, and Triangle is a good shape. they can't afford to make it look fancy, because there is hundreds of thousands of Star Destroyers ( All Star Destroyers ), they can't affrod the cost to make it look fancy.




    Again, I certainly agree that Naboo ships are nothing compared to Star Trek starfighters. But the starships above the yacht, passenger ship or Starfighters but below Dreadnught Cruiser, are a 1:1 match for Star Trek ships( exculding Galaxy-Class, Enterprise-E or Voyager ), I don't really consider starfighters starships. The ships above the Dreadnught cruiser level is more then a match for averge Star Trek ships, and can take time to defeat Galaxy-Class, Enterprise-E or Voyager. Anything above the Heavy Cruiser level is moire then a match for any Star Trek ships.

    I agree with some points, I agree that a demilitarized ship or Starfighter don't have completely covered shields after they been attack. Military ships have fully covered shields ( the Falcon have military standard shields, doesn't mean that it have military generators to provide that power at all times ) at all times ( except when they turn off the shield generators of course ). It is pretty sad about the Naboo pilot's skill, but it is Anakin Skywalker, he can see the future other's can't, that again proved Anakin's skill.
     
  17. SkywalkerJedi アスラン・ザラ ( Athrun "Alex" Zala ) Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,493
    Starwars.com is canon, I am on the Star Wars side but I disagree with this statement. Starwars.com is canon acording to the canon classifications for G-canon and C-canon. G-canon is anything that come directly from George Lucas ( Eg. Scripts, Deleted Scens, and the movies ). C-canon is anything that is licienced by lucasfilm thats not T-canon, S-canon or G-canon. Starfighter's shields are diffrent from other ships. When it is hit, the generator lose power, so they need to shut other areas off to divert it to that area, however it is only for Starfighters. Starwars.com's databank is not wrong, it is just to small, it doesn't have much infomation as Star Wars Wiki or Star Wars encycolpediea.

    I disagree the fact that Skywalker had extra time. Skywalker can simply saw that bolt coming. Skywalker is the only human with the reflexes to podrace.
     
  18. SkywalkerJedi アスラン・ザラ ( Athrun "Alex" Zala ) Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,493
    Thats far worse then a turbolasers, it is only a blaster cannon shot.
     
  19. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    13,938
    I don't know Jedi - you still have the problem of actually hitting the Trek ship...

    at .8c (max impulse), the Enterprise-E is zipping around 80% the speed of light. She has full weapons, shields, and plenty of auxilliary power to dump into those systems.

    Now, when you consider that, at any time, the Ent-E can make a micro-warp jump with near zero calculations, they can stay at about 25,000 km and simply pound away at the Wars vessel, simply changing directions as the turbolasers come inbound (as we know they take time to traverse that distance) and shooting down missiles and torpedoes as they are fired. Quantum torpedoes, photon torpedoes, and phaser spreads would rapidly deteriorate the Wars vessels shields and soon they can begin picking off the weapon emplacements, leaving the ship largely undamaged but unable to fight.
     
  20. SkywalkerJedi アスラン・ザラ ( Athrun "Alex" Zala ) Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,493
    The amout of ships, and the names of the ships involved in the chase. There was no 10 ships, Admiral Ozzile's fleet is not that big. Ozzile's Victory is out of range, at least 1 is disabled, the rest of the ships are taking care of the fleeing rebel transports. There is only three holograms of the captains of the ships, so all of those add up too: there is only three involved. Neither way, it is not destoryed, because all the ships are present in other combats, or destroyed years after.
     
  21. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    BTW - I have had response times registering under a quarter second whilst my adrenaline was high (soccer as a goalkeeper for instance, and when I practice my swordsmanship)

    A .75-1 second response time is FAR too slow... hell, the AVERAGE person has better than that! The AVERAGE humans response time is about 1/4 of a second!

    The average (median) reaction time is 215 milliseconds.
    I've recorded 446052 clicks so far.

    http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/stats.php

    A simple test, but it's hand-to-eye reaction just the same.
     
  22. SkywalkerJedi アスラン・ザラ ( Athrun "Alex" Zala ) Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,493
    Excuse me, it is not called a "Wars vessle", it is called a Star Wars vessle. I never seen any Star Trek vessle fight at that range, they usally fight when they come into visual range ( I said usally, not always so don't critisize ), if so they would of begun the Battle to Retake Deep Space 9 in longer range, or the Defence of Earth in longer range. Star Wars have concussion missiles that have longer ranger, faster and it can follow the ship. In emergencies they can jump into hyperspace and escape ( only in emergencies ), so destroying it won't be very possible.
    Oh, I forgot, Ion Cannons and Long-range turbolasers have that range too.
     
  23. SkywalkerJedi アスラン・ザラ ( Athrun "Alex" Zala ) Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,493
    Skywalker is diffrent, he can tell the future. He is the only human that can podrace ( remember there is no rules about sabatoging ) and won.
     
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