Star Wars vs Star Trek

Discussion in 'SciFi & Fantasy' started by Pollux V, May 9, 2002.

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Which universe would win?

  1. Star Trek

    227 vote(s)
    35.5%
  2. Star Wars

    268 vote(s)
    41.9%
  3. Spaceballs

    47 vote(s)
    7.3%
  4. Farscape

    12 vote(s)
    1.9%
  5. Dune

    50 vote(s)
    7.8%
  6. Stargate

    36 vote(s)
    5.6%
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  1. Ilithi_Dragon Dragon Overlord Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    191
    FFS, I go to camp for the weekend and look what happens...

    Guys, the best way to deal with ricrery's insults is to just not even respond to them. If he's just trolling, you're playing into his hands, and if he's not deliberately trolling, you're still rewarding negative behavior. Ignore his insults, and do not return them in kind, and he won't have a leg to stand on.


    On-topic:

    With TDiC, we see massive atmospheric shockwaves, massive fireballs the size of nations (one the ~size of Western Europe), and are told that 30% of the crust was destroyed with the opening volley. The fireballs are not blindingly bright, but then we were watching the viewscreen which was probably already dimmed/adjusted to prevent the star system's sun, hovering around the edge of the viewsceen, from being blindingly bright. We see that even the large fireballs appear to have largely dissipated 40-50 seconds after they first begin to appear, which we would not see with a conventional raw discharge of energy, but then we know that we are not dealing with conventional raw discharges of energy.

    The main weapon we see used in TDiC is phasers and disruptors, which are known to have an extremely powerful NDF effect that vastly magnifies the effective yield orders of magnitude beyond the raw DET energy levels. In TNG "Q Who?" we get a prime example of this against unadapted/non-hardened Borg hull materials that indicates that the NDF magnifies the effective yield against non-hardened materials by at least a factor of 1315. Allowing for the Borg having some defense systems, or even just structural integrity systems active, and the possibility of some latent resistivity to the basic NDF effect due to threat races in their home region having basic phaser/disruptor tech, the effect against basic raw matter, such as the surface of a planet, could be vastly greater even than that.

    Based on the TNG "Q Who?" damage effects, the initial blast from the E-D discharged some 2.6 petajoules of energy, and had a total effective yield thanks to the NDF of ~3,419 petajoules, bare minimum. This is assuming an average starship density of 1,913kg/m^3, and a hull vaporization energy requirement of 35 MJ/m^3. Given that in "I, Borg" a Borg scout ship similar to the 10m cube that we see crashed on a planet's surface is said to have a mass of ~2.5 million metric tons (giving us an average hull density of 2,500,000 kg/m^3), and that TNG-era hull vaporization levels for Fed ships could easily be in the range of 100MJ/m^3 or greater, much higher blast yields can easily be drawn from this.

    Even assuming that most of the Borg scout ship's mass comes from its FTL drives (we know Fed warp coils are exceedingly dense, and constitute a significant fraction of the ship's total mass (15% to over 25%, depending on the ship)), and assuming an average hull density of 20,000 kg/m^3, with a Borg hull vaporization energy requirement of 120MJ/m^3, the 38,305.66 m^3 hole blown in the Cube by the phaser beam alone, before the NDF takes over, would have required:

    38,305.66 m^3 * 20,000 kg/m^3 = 766,113,200 kg

    766,113,200 kg * 120MJ/m^3 = 91,933,584,000 MJ

    Or, 91.93 petajoules. The full size of the hole is 1,315 times greater than the initial hole bored by the phaser beam itself, giving a total effective yield of 120,887.95 petajoules, equivalent to a 28.89 gigaton bomb releasing 100% of its energy into the Borg ship's hull. The most powerful shot observed by a Galaxy class is roughly twice this figure, or 183.86 PJ raw yield, and 241,775.9 PJ NDF effective yield.

    Considering that the Borg were already adapting to the NDF effect even as the E-D was firing (subsequent comparable-yield blasts yielded increasingly smaller holes), and that the Borg probably had some pretty powerful passive defenses active, if nothing other than a Structural Integrity Field, the raw effective yield increase of the NDF effect against completely unprotected matter could easily be one or more orders of magnitude greater. In fact, given that TOS-era ships, which appear to be more dense on average than TNG-era ships but use more or less the same raw materials, have hull resistance figures in the single-digit MJ/kg range, while TNG-era ships have hull resistance figures easily in the 100+ MJ/kg range, apparently thanks to the advent of the Structural Integrity Field (we get no mention of this in TOS and the TOS movies, yet frequent mention in TNG, vastly improved spaceframe endurances in TNG, and the knowledge that several new techs were implemented around the turn of the 24th Century points to the advent of the SIF around that time, and a massive increase in spaceframe endurance thanks to it), the effective yield increase of the phaser/disruptor NDF effect against unprotected/unhardened matter could easily be 100 times greater than what we see demonstrated in "Q Who?", especially if you consider the likelihood that starship spaceframes and armor implement phaser-resistant materials.

    That would turn the E-D's most powerful observed shot of 183.86 PJ (assuming the more likely higher hull density and vaporization figures) into the equivalent of a 24,177,590 PJ shot quite easily. That is roughly equivalent to the energy release of a 5,778,583 megaton, or 5.78 teraton bomb, except that nearly 100% of that energy would be delivered to the target, and that figure could be increase by a couple factors without much stretching at all.

    This still fits with a megaton-range photon torpedo because of the NDF resistance built into all modern starships, both with phaser-resistant spaceframe materials, the SIF, etc. The SIF itself probably takes care of most of the NDF effect, though phaser-resistant materials undoubtdly play a huge role as well, especially considering that those are the heaviest shots of the Federation's biggest and most powerful battleship, equipped with some of the biggest guns in this half of the galaxy, so most lighter vessels wouldn't be able to match that phaser firepower.

    In planetary bombardments, phasers and disruptors are the truly terrifying weapons, far more powerful against an unprotected planet than a photon torpedo. Against shields and hulls not hardened against the NDF effect (which apparently disrupts gluons, the force-carrier boson of the nuclear strong force, which binds atoms together and presumably has a disruptive effect on all bosuns), phasers and disruptors would be equally terrifying weapons.

    Using the official canon (and completely disregarded biased pieces of wankery such as the AotC ICS book - Curtis Saxton, one of the primary authors, was an active VS debater well before he wrote the ICS books, and consulted with Mike Wong and other denizens and allies of SDN while writing it. It is the epitome of a biased work), Star Wars weapons have routinely demonstrated energy yields in the high megajoule to low gigajoule range for starfighter weapons, and high gigajoule to low terajoule range for starship weaponry, with mid-terajoule/low-kiloton range torpedoes being observed in use by fighters. There is no observed non-DET effects in most Wars weaponry, though some beam weapons do, most notably both Death Star superlasers (even if there are non-DET effects from Wars weapons, the effective yields are still in the high megajoule to low gigajoule range for starfighter weaponry, and high gigajoule to low terajoule range for starship weaponry, with mid-terajoule/low-kiloton range starfighter missiles observed as being effective against capital ships). We occasionally see superweapons that exceed this destructive range (Death Stars being obvious, the 'sonic charges' used by Jango Fett in AotC), but these are rarely observed, especially in general starship combat.

    Even without the exajoule/teraton range effective yields granted by phaser/disruptor NDF effects, Trek weaponry has routinely demonstrated vastly superior energy yields over Wars, by three or four orders of magnitude. Add in the NDF effective yield increase as Wars ships have no reason to have been hardened against it, and have given no indication of having something like an SIF (to my knowledge), and Trek destroyers could probably one-shot most Wars ships. Trek capital ships could probably completely vaporize most Wars ships with one shot.


    Furthermore, Wars has demonstrated absolutely horrendous weapons ranges and targeting accuracy, routinely engaging at single-digit kilometer ranges, or just pulling alongside the enemy vessel, parking, and having at each other. Wars weapons placements also appear to be designed expressly for such broadside engagements. Maximum ranges have routinely been very limited, to dozens of kilometers at best against large capital ships (less than a kilometer against lone fighters flying in a straight line, in some cases (ANH)), with nothing over a hundred kilometers having been observed. Accuracy at anything over point-blank range broadsides is poor to atrocious, or worse.

    Trek ships have demonstrated high accuracy of beam weapons at ranges of several thousand to two hundred thousand kilometers, with precision accuracy being routinely observed at ranges of thousands to tens of thousands of kilometers. Torpedoes have demonstrated ranges of hundreds of thousands to millions of kilometers when fired at sublight speeds, and billions of kilometers in warp-speed engagements. Trek ships can also land precision hits on stationary or sublight-only targets while traveling at warp speeds.

    Trek ships can hit Wars ships with orders of magnitude more firepower from far beyond Wars weapons ranges, and probably well beyond the range that Wars ships could even detect them. Even if they closed to Wars weapons ranges, Trek ships are vastly more maneuverable, with vastly superior sublight acceleration (best observed in Wars is ~210 m/s^2, while Trek routinely demonstrates 1-4,000 m/s^2, with some instances going as high as 4,000 km/s^2). Trek ships would fly circles around Wars ships, making themselves extremely difficult targets, while they could land precision fire against Wars ships with impunity.
     
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  3. mandalore14 Registered Member

    Messages:
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    star wars in my opinion would win simply because of firepower,speed and,numbers.
     
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  5. mandalore14 Registered Member

    Messages:
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    star wars has a clear advantage in firepower fore example an old outdated alcalmator class troop transport main guns are rated to be 200 gigatons a shout. if we take this into consideration a imperial class star destroyer which is roughly 20 time bigger by volume and has a peak reactor out put of ~7,73 × 1024w the main guns produce around 45 teratons of energy per shout.
    if you compare this with a federation galaxy class starship which has gigawatt level phasers and, megaton level photon torpedoes. it would only take 1 shout from a heavy torbolaser to destroy a galaxy class star ship.
     
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  7. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    Well, okay, lay out some numbers.

    *sigh*

    Another Wong follower.

    Where are you getting this power for an ISD? For example, the Venator class, its forerunner, only had about 10kt to a max of 1 megaton. And it's pretty obvious that SW ships don't have teratons when nine ships duking it out think an asteroid field is an effective means of cover or hell--Empire Strikes Back where they actually destroy the bridge of one ship.

    That's not teratons of firepower...is it? No, it's not.

    Nor do I understand your figures for Trek ships. The Galaxy Class phasers are equal to roughly 100,000 terrawatts, not anything in the gigawatt range, save for maybe those puny strips near the nacelle and such...and even then they're probably closer to like a thousand terrawatts or something.
     
  8. Ilithi_Dragon Dragon Overlord Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    191
    Well, first of all, you CANNOT use the Attack of the Clones: Incredible Cross Sections book as any kind of reliable source for anything except the external-view pictures of the ships seen in the films. One of the main authors of the AotC:ICS book, Curtis Saxton, was a fairly active debater in the "VS debates" between Star Trek and Star Wars before writing the ICS book, a decidedly pro-Wars debater, and he consulted with Mike Wong and other denizens and allies of StarDestroyer.Net while writing it. The AotC:ICS book is the epitome of a biased work, with figures deliberately written in to be so ridiculously high as to be beyond hope of being surpassed by Star Trek. The 200 gigaton figure for the light guns of an Acclamator class troop transport are utterly absurd and fallacious. We never see anything anywhere near that kind of firepower from ANYTHING in Star Wars with the sole exception of the Death Star superlaser.

    The weapons in the films and CGI episodes themselves, the official canon, show weapons yields much, much lower. Starfighter laser and blaster cannons are in the high megajoule range (800-900 megajoules), and maybe into the low single-digit gigajoule range per shot, at best. Capital ship weapons are in the high gigajoule (several hundred GJ) to low terajoule (single-digit to double-digit TJ) range per shot. Starfighter-carried warheads are in the low (20-50) kiloton range.

    Only the DS Superlasers surpass this, and THOSE have many strong indications that they are not Direct Energy Transfer (DET) weapons, but a reaction-inducing weapon. Their destructive power is no less, but the raw energy requirement (and thus raw energy output of the DS's reactors) is much, much lower than implied by a planetary destruction event.

    Regarding your figures for Trek firepower, you're assigning megawatt to low gigawatt phaser energy outputs, yet assigning PETAJOULE energy outputs for torpedoes. It sounds like you're going strictly off the TNG:TM, which is generally a good secondary source material, but only a secondary material that does not completely sync with the official canon, and that is overruled where it conflicts.

    To put the energy values into perspective (and remember that 1 Watt = 1 Joule per second).

    1 Megawatt = 1,000,000 Watts (Mega = million)

    1 Gigawatt = 1,000,000,000 Watts (Giga = billion)

    1 Petajoule = 1,000,000,000,000,000 Joules (Peta = quadrillion)

    A 42-megaton detonation release ~175.728 petajoules of energy. Even at 500 gigawatts, it would take a GCS phaser array as you describe 351,456 seconds, or 5,857.6 minutes, or 97.63 hours, or just over four days to match the raw energy release of a single photon torpedo.

    That just doesn't work, for obvious reasons.


    Not necessarily. He may simply have a copy of the AotC:ICS book, which is where the infamous 200 gigaton figure comes from.


    As I've noted, Wars warship weaponry is low terajoule / low kiloton range. They have almost never demonstrated anything above that range. The exceptions were obvious superweapons.


    To be honest, I'm not sure where you're getting that figure. My own figures put the Galaxy's phaser output at 300 terawatts per emitter. This gives her main dorsal array an output rating of 579000 terawatts, or 579 petawatts, though the actual raw energy discharge in Joules is notably less than this. The way phaser arrays work, their actual discharge level varies greatly, depending on the number of emitters discharging simultaneously in the pre-fire 'charge-up' sequence and the speed at which that pre-fire sequence moves across the array (the glow that moves across the array, known as the Sequential Discharge Effect, or SDE). The size and speed of the SDE glow determines total phaser discharge power. The array has a theoretical maximum output of the number of emitters in the array times the output of the emitter type, and the way the system works the resulting beam actually discharges at that rate, but we never actually see the full array discharge continuously (at least, not with the big arrays; we may have seen it with some of the smaller arrays).

    Based on the opening shot in TNG "Q Who?", the Galaxy's second-heaviest shots fall into the range of 92 petajoules total energy discharge. The heaviest observed shot (TNG "Rascals") is roughly twice that, or 182 petajoules. Average salvos and sustained output rates are 1/2 to 1/5th that of the "Q Who?" opening shot, though we see comparable shots on a few other occasions.

    This is in terms of raw energy discharge, however. The effective yield, as I note above, is considerably higher due to the NDF effect (of which I know you're well aware, Hellblade). Against common threat forces, that have shield and hull systems 'hardened' against the NDF effect, the effective yield modifier of the NDF effect appears to be in the range of a factor of 2-10.

    Against unhardened targets, this jumps to at least a factor of 1,315, if the target has comparable Structural Integrity Fields and similar phaser-resistant hull materials. Against completely unprotected targets (such as planetary surfaces, or ships with non-phaser-resistant hulls and no phaser-resisting SIF), this modifier jumps to a factor of 131,500 - 1,315,000.
     
  9. mandalore14 Registered Member

    Messages:
    8
    "Where are you getting this power for an ISD?"
    I got that from wookieepedia.

    "Well, okay, lay out some numbers."
    dude im not an physics expert but i have read most of the star wars books
    and have extensive knowledge on star wars technology

    "And it's pretty obvious that SW ships don't have teratons"

    their are plenty of examples in star wars where teraton are used fore example.
    During the mandaloreing wars a fleet of 16 mandaloreing battleships armed with
    nuclear pulse cannons destroyed 45% of a planet in 2 minutes
    how bout the battle battle of borleias when a fleet of new republic warships slaged the planet borleias in 30 minutes.

    "Another Wong follower."
    I don't even know who wong is.:shrug:
     
  10. Shogun Bleed White and Blue! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,635
    :wallbang::facepalm:


    He meant in the films....we all know there is plenty of instances in EU.

    He is someone you will probably never meet.....
     
  11. mandalore14 Registered Member

    Messages:
    8
    "We never see anything anywhere near that kind of firepower from ANYTHING in Star Wars with the sole exception of the Death Star superlaser."

    I agree with you that in the movies starwars weapons are shown to be in high kilitons to low megatons but im geting most of my information from the novelization of the movies and the EU which show star wars weapons in much more detail.
     
  12. Ilithi_Dragon Dragon Overlord Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    191
    Michael Wong, founder and operator of StarDestroyer.net, a militantly pro-Wars "VS" community

    Unfortunately, Wookipedia is dominated by the SDN crowd, or at least their followers or general mindset. The 200 gigaton figure listed on Wookipedia, for example, comes from the Attack of the Clones: Incredible Cross Sections book, the epitome of a biased work (see my post above). It is a fallacious figure, as are most of the figures listed on Wookipedia.

    There are two canons in Star Wars, the Official Star Wars canon, which consists of the live-action and CGI films and episodes, their respective scripts, and their respective novelizations, and then there is the Star Wars: Expanded Universe canon, which consists of all the SW official canon material, plus all of the "EU" materials, arranged in receding ascendancy below the official canon sources, overridden by the official canon sources. In the official canon (which is all I operate on, because if we are going to bring in the SW EU, we should also bring in the Trek EU, which I prefer not to do because 1. I am less familiar with the Trek EU; 2. it is even more inconsistent and incongruous than the SW EU (though probably not much more when you factor in the vastly larger volume of Trek books and materials that exist); and 3. Just two words: Genesis Cannons), Wars has never demonstrated anything above low terajoule/kiloton range firepower, with the exceptions of the two Deathstar superlasers, and Jango Fett's seismic charges. Every other instance observed was in the low terajoule / kiloton range or less.
     
  13. ricrery Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,616
    Star Wars EU IS canon, Star Trek EU isn't canon. Btw, you can't say that a work is bias, because it doesn't work like that. YOU made the claim it's wrong, YOU prove it, not "LALA SDN IS WRONG BT ST VS SW IS RIGHT LALALA", btw, here's calcs from this very site, made from a person who doesn't BIAS kick in.
     
  14. mandalore14 Registered Member

    Messages:
    8
    "Star Wars EU IS canon"
    i agree with ricrery
     
  15. mandalore14 Registered Member

    Messages:
    8
    "Wookipedia is dominated by the SDN crowd, or at least their followers or general mindset. The 200 gigaton figure listed on Wookipedia, for example, comes from the Attack of the Clones: Incredible Cross Sections book, the epitome of a biased work (see my post above). It is a fallacious figure, as are most of the figures listed on Wookipedia."


    I find wookieepedia as good source fore information
     
  16. Omega133 Aus der Dunkelheit Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,281
    What's wrong? Wookiepedia is an ok source.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2010
  17. Shogun Bleed White and Blue! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,635
    It is not very okay for precise information.
     
  18. Ilithi_Dragon Dragon Overlord Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    191
    The highest non-reactor-explosion yield effects we ever see in the movies, outside of the DS and Jango's seismic charges are:

    1. Jango's missile he fires at Obi Wan in AotC (concussion missile?), detonating with a 20-50 kiloton explosion

    2. The crash of a Trade Federation starship sphere shot down by Republic Clone Trooper walkers as it is trying to lift off in AotC, creating a dust storm/shockwave comparable to a kiloton-level event (assuming this all comes from the crash of the ship and not the ship's reactors going up)

    3. The destruction of the Rebel shield generator in TESB from a maximum power shot from an Imperial AT-AT, with the combined explosion from both the weapon discharge and the failing reactor reaching into the single-digit kiloton range.

    4. The complete and total destruction of an ISD bridge tower (and apparently, the subsequent destruction of the entire ISD) after an asteroid impact with the kinetic energy equivalent to only 8.6 kilotons in TESB

    #4 can remain consistent with a 20-50 kiloton proton torpedo/concussion missile warhead yield because of the nature of the strike: Wars armor can be shown to be decidedly weak against kinetic impacts, presumably because of the lack of kinetic projectile weapons and primary focus on energy weapons, and in space there is no concussive shockwave from an explosion, there is just the raw release of energy (which does have momentum and can impart considerable momentum, especially at close range, but nowhere near the kinetic force of an atmospheric shockwave). Should a Wars ship be hit by a starfighter missile while in atmosphere, the concussive shockwave created by the super-heated air expanding and moving outward from the explosion so fast it compresses the air ahead of it into a powerful shockwave, it would probably do massive damage against even a Wars capital ship, but since most engagements take place in space, with warships almost never engaging each other in atmosphere, this would rarely be an issue.
     
  19. ricrery Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,616
    What? Why would they randomly put 9.9^24 W in a box just below the picture of the object the page is about?
     
  20. Shogun Bleed White and Blue! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,635

    Very true, it looks very grand on screen, but in reality it is a lot weaker then the first atomic bombs ever used.
     
  21. Ilithi_Dragon Dragon Overlord Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    191
    The author was a known and active pro-Wars debater in the VS community, and he consulted with known and active and militantly pro-Wars members of the VS community while writing the book. That is the definition of bias. Saxton was heavily biased in favor of weighting the figures in Wars' favor, and he consulted with people who were just as if not more so heavily biased as he was. The incentive to stack the deck in Wars' favor is absurdly high, and painfully obvious.

    That is the definition of bias. In fact, if you open up any dictionary and look up "Biased Work" and "Biased Author", you will find a picture of the AOTC:ICS book and Curtis Saxton, respectively.

    As such, the AOTC:ICS books is an invalid source of data for ANY scientific endeavor.
     
  22. mandalore14 Registered Member

    Messages:
    8
    I did some research on star destroyer.net and a website called st-v-st.com honestly i find both to be biased.

    "Star Wars: Expanded Universe canon, which consists of all the SW official canon material, plus all of the "EU" materials, arranged in receding ascendancy below the official canon sources, overridden by the official canon sources"

    From what i understand of star wars cannon policy is that their are 5 levels of cannon
    1. g cannon/ movies and novelization
    2. t cannon/ tv shows
    3. c cannon/ books,and games
    4. s cannon /crossovers and some games
    5.n wich is non cannon

    source
    wikipedia
     
  23. mandalore14 Registered Member

    Messages:
    8
    Here Is quote from George Lucas him self regarding EU.


    "After Star Wars was released, it became apparent that my story — however many films it took to tell — was only one of thousands that could be told about the characters who inhabit its galaxy. But these were not stories I was destined to tell. Instead they would spring from the imagination of other writers, inspired by the glimpse of a galaxy that Star Wars provided. Today it is an amazing, if unexpected, legacy of Star Wars that so many gifted writers are contributing new stories to the Saga."
     
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