Star Wars vs Star Trek

I played Ace Combat, does that count?

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I am just joking.

 

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This is entirely correct, but the effect is far less than with fighters, which can actually fly near the speeds of their weapons (especially the shorter-range missiles). In Trek, at least, missile weapons travel very fast, and can even travel at warp, though sublight range is shorter than FTL range. Sublight range appears to be in the millions of kilometers for torpedoes, with warp speed ranges being much higher because the torpedo is traveling so much faster. The effect would certainly still be there, but that would vary by circumstance between two extremes which would average out to the default range anyway.

With phasers and disruptors, which are particle weapons that travel at just a hair under c, the effect is negligible even at ~200,000km that appears to be the maximum or maximum effective weapons range for beam phasers/disruptors.

We know that as of TOS, with old ball-turret style phasers, Trek ships could hit a 1-meter target at 90,000 kilometers away, so their precision even at longer ranges is pretty impressive.

Yes. Light travels at constant speed c in all frames of reference.

That depends on the nature of your FTL drive, among other things. We know for a fact that Trek ships can fire phasers, and we've heard mention of annular confinement beams which presumably are narrow extensions of the warp field to allow phasers to fire at warp. They would be limited to a degree at FTL velocities, given their relatively short range normally and the fact that tracking and targeting at FTL is going to be much harder than at sublight, so phasers have limitations at FTL but they are still potent weapons and we've seen them used at warp on multiple occasions (though torpedoes tend to be the preferred weapon).

I would generally agree with you, except when it comes to blaster bolts. They travel slow enough that you can track their trajectory easily at the normal framerate, and they move slow enough that humanoid biological organisms can deflect them with a lightsaber. If they really were moving at or effectively at lightspeed, that would be physically impossible even for a Jedi. Even if a Jedi knew exactly where every shot was going to land an hour ahead of time, it would be impossible because the Jedi would not be able to move the blade fast enough.

 

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Umm.............isn't c is the speed of light in a vacuum?......

 

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Yes. 299,792,458 meters per second. And that is constant in all frames of reference. Now, when traveling through a medium (such as air, or water, or your glass window), the speed of light changes due to refraction and attenuation by the atoms of the medium, but that's because the atoms are lengthening the distance the photons are traveling, not because they are actually slowing down.

 

Well the ships CAN fly at the speed of their weapons.

Yeah, accuracy isn't a problem, but I was thinking the sensors might be.

I always thought they had Jedi precognition like Spiderman, which also accounted for the kid driving that race at a gazillion mph. At first it always looked like the physics didnt seem right when they block blaster shots, until you realize, they aren't reacting to the shots, but instead predicting them. They sometimes move the saber in position well before the shot is fired, especially when Luke was first learning on the Falcon. He was at LEAST moving to where the next shot would be fired.

And yeah - Im sticking to what I believe: Bolts are just short burst from a beam weapon unless somebody confirms otherwise. In fact, if they were designed to, they'd do what Death Stars do: fire solid beams. Figure they're in more repetitive use, they'd have to use short bursts or burn something out, which is just like phasers - they're not meant to hold a beam for long durations either, but they're manually regulated so they can shoot a quick burst or a longer, low-level setting for heating up rocks or somethin.

 

Yeah, and I think in the boxcar example c is not applicable, because there is atmosphere I believe.

 

Torpedoes to a degree... Though it depends on the nature of the combat. Purely sublight, torpedoes have almost always been seen to travel much faster than the ships we see moving (with a handful of exceptions, such as the overly-dramatized E-D firing of a torpedo against the Duras sisters' cloaking BoP in Generations, which can be chalked up to dramatic license (i.e. eeeepiiiiic sllooooow-mooooo foooor draaaamaaaatiiiiiccc eeeffffffeeeeecccctttt)).

As I said, with torpedoes this would effect would certainly come into play, especially when dealing with warp-speed engagements, but for our purposes the point is moot because it would vary by circumstance and maneuver, and the full range of effective increase and decrease in torpedo range would average out to the standard range anyway.

For Trek senors? Routine scans go out to 3 lightyears, and the E-D's detection range for another ship that was working on not being found was 10 lightyears. Trek sensors are ridiculously sensitive and accurate to a ridiculous amount of things, out to ridiculous ranges. Nine times out of ten, the issue with sensors in Trek is not that they don't detect something, it's that the officers manning the sensors have so much data to process that they don't notice it.

Yes, the Jedi do have precog abilities that enhance their combat performance, but even that has its limitations. As I said, even if they knew where every shot was going to land an hour ahead of time, or ten, or a month, it wouldn't do them any good, because even with precognition, super-human reflexes, super-human response times, super-human strength and super-human muscle speed, there is still only so much the human body can do. Just knowing where to put the blade is not enough, you have to be able to put it there in time.

Against a lone gunman firing single shots at a time, or a single rapid-fire gun putting the shots into exactly the same spot, precog alone will work. However, against multiple guns firing from different angles at different spots, or just a single gun on rapid-fire spraying across a wide area, the human body cannot physically move that fast. And even if it could, the blade would have to be in multiple, wildly divergent locations at the same time to fully block the bolts coming in, at the rate of fire we've seen Jedi block with ease, if they were traveling at lightspeed.

The refractive index of air, the ratio of the speed of light in a vacuum to in air, is 1.0003. In air, light travels at 99.97% the speed of light in a vacuum, so for all intents and purposes it is effectively c. Furthermore, unless there are two different mediums in the boxcar, the speed is still the same.

Now, if the boxcar is accelerating, the light hitting the back wall will be slightly blue-shifted, while the light hitting the forward wall will be slightly red-shifted, but they will still be hitting the walls at the same time from the perspective of an observer in the middle, because light ALWAYS travels at c (or c in a medium), in all frames of reference.

If the boxcar is moving at a constant velocity, the results of the experiment will be identical to the results if the boxcar had absolutely zero velocity.

 

"Maximum effective range of a weapon is the greatest distance fired and able to produce casualties or damage consistently."

The point I'm arguing is that 'stated weapons range' while in action should still be according to specifics. I mean, with all this technology, are you going to tell me that Data is going to tell you something based on an average? No, he'd consider all the relevant information. And for that matter, why would anyone 'state' a weapons range that's accurate to one set of circumstances and apply it to a completely different set?

Yeah, I notice that a lot in debates. Somebody mentions something and some geek boy starts rambling on about specific canon data and totally loses track of wtf they're even talking about. For instance, I say a beams and bolts should be about the same speed, and you start babbling about jedi reflexes "against multiple guns firing from different angles at different spots..."

Lets forget the ridiculous assumption that a whole new set of variables somehow proves anything because Jedi reflexes don't amount to jack in this argument.

In fact, you should have just looked up the speed of a torpedo, take ANY stated range, and figure out how drastic the difference is under separate circumstances and THEN argue how 'moot' my point is. After that, you can dig for some real evidence as to why a SW fan would argue something is SLOWER when they almost always want to say something is FASTER.

And yes I know exactly where I'm heading with this: The fact it's not traveling at laser speed proves turbo lasers are not lasers. I say bullshit: Movies have to show laser fire visually, and they've always done it with glowing color, and slow enough for the video, when we know laser weapons shouldn't even show to the naked eye in space. Die-hard canon whores act like everything on the movie is significant evidence, but, like sounds in space, a person's spoken slang interpretation, etc - some shit is just never meant to be taken literally!! Leave room for exaggeration much?

 

I see what you're saying, but again, it's largely moot. We are dealing with observed weapons ranges, so regardless of whether or not they are irregular outliers, they have been observed and confirmed as possible. Even if the extreme outliers are irregular occurences due to the special circumstances of the engagement, that still leaves the much more regular median figures as perfectly valid, with the more extreme cases being available if the circumstances can be arranged.

In terms of phasers and disruptors at sublight engagements, this point is also made moot by both the fact that Trek ships do not routinely travel near c at sublight (meaning there is not a significant increase or decrease in distance to travel in the amount of time it takes the weapon to reach the target, relative to the weapon's travel speed), and because phasers, etc. are particle weapons that travel at near-c, the lightspeed limit and laws of Relativity reduce the potential variability to effectively nil.

It should also be noted that only two of these cases establishes a confirmed maximum range, that of ~200,000 kilometers from the engagement between the Phoenix and the Cardassian warship, and the antiquated 2150s civilian freighter, which is irrelevant to the discussion here. All other instances are just the observed range of fire, and not necessarily the maximum effective range of the engagement.

We can certainly analyze each point case-by-case to check for circumstances that would effect the range, but most of the cases do not say how close to the maximum range they were firing, and we will not have sufficient data available on many of them to determine special modifying circumstances.

As such, we should treat them as standard ranges unless special modifying circumstances are confirmed, and analyze the entire data set to determine more typical ranges, which appears to be 2,000-90,000 kilometers. Outliers from that may be special circumstances, they may not, but the available data clearly establishes that Trek warships can easily and effectively engage each other at ranges of tens of thousands of kilometers, at least.

I see your "Shut up you pimple-faced nerd!" and raise you a "Be silent, ignorant knuckle-dragger!"
} : = 8 P

I see and understand your point about the VFX thing, but unless we have good reason to disregard it, we can't just throw aside data we don't like or disagree with. That is piss-poor science at best, and deliberately dishonest at worst.

The ability of Jedi to block blaster bolts is very relevant here, specifically because it is an additional point of data on the speed of SW blaster bolts. It would be physically impossible for Jedi to block all the shots we see them block if the bolts were traveling at or effectively at c, even with all the precognition in the world, Force-enhanced reflexes, speed, etc., because they are protecting themselves with a very narrow blade of energy that cannot be in two places at once, and does not have instant acceleration. Even with Force-enhancement, the speed of the blaster bolt is limited by the physical limitations of the human body.

That, plus the observed slow speed of blasters (slower than is necessary to create a flashy light show), and you have compelling data that blasters are decidedly sub-luminal weapons, and possibly even sub-sonic weapons, and just because you may not like that data or the conclusions it indicates, does not mean that you can ignore it.

 

How about just let it go. It's apparent you missed the point and believe me, if you haven't noticed within your lifetime that it's extremely annoying to talk to a brick wall, maybe you should try it.

See, I GET that for every post someone reads, there's an irresistible urge to pick at it, try to discover how close to 100% accurate it is, and then rattle off the numbers like it's necessary to maintain your levels of esteem. I know because I'm hardly innocent of that shit myself. But sometimes I start typing, pause, read everything over, consider if the author is an idiot or a smartass, or if I'm just reading too much into it.

Kinda like you did... I made a simple point that there are variances, and that when someone states a range, they may actually be considering the circumstances at hand and NOT quoting a typical range but an adjusted one. Now, I'm NOT going back to read that whole page of events to see if my theory fits because that's hardly as relevant as the purpose we were discussing this shit for in the first place.

As for the Jedi abilities, I've stated - we might as well dismiss the 'evidence' because there's too many variables. However, you wanted to explorer your potential to explain your side as if I didn't understand, so I'll go ahead and share my theoretical understanding of the force-enhanced performance.

I'll use the example from the movie 'Next'. If you know an object will be hurtling towards you, you don't need to react to the fact it was launched, but simply not be in the way when it gets there. Doesn't matter what speed it's traveling, so long as you know where it will be and when. However, (and this is the theroetical part) since a force user has abilities to control a person's actions, it stands to reason that they could also direct the opponents' aim. Granted, that's an extremely elite tactic to use, but no more strategic than drawing fire in one direction while your allies evade in a different direction.

Of course, you're free to say 'Jedi are awesomely powerful but they're not that smart, nor do they have the ability, in which case, I'll settle for the fact that they know where to hold a light saber before the blasters are even fired. That said, I believe a Jedi CAN deflect the same number of attacks in the same manner even if they approached close to the speed of light, but that with so much action on screen, you'd never be able to appreciate their defensive abilities since the velocities would be great to show up on film. And I submit that its not how fast they approach, but how many are approaching simultaneously that makes defending difficult. So long as the enemies are not firing simultaneously, I think a Jedi can anticipate and defend.

Oh, feel free to suggest a scene from any movie that might change my mind, and I'll try to remember to watch it at a later date.

Oh yeah, and that IS a die-hard trek (later series) fan arguing for Jedi abilities when they hardly appeal to me.

 

Here is another thing about light. For normal objects ( eg. car on highway ), if you are 100 km/h and the subject is 110 km/h, your perceive it to be 10 km/h. However for light, it always perceive to be c ( if in vacuum ). The speed of light which you perceive it is constant, whether you are at 0 or 100 km/h, or even near c. If you have a spacecraft going at 99% the speed of light, the perception won't change. Light speed is NOT relative. I think he precognition let the Jedi know where the bolt will be, and he moves it to the position and wait for the bolt to hit it. Instead of the lightsaber hitting the bolt, more like bolt hitting lightsaber. It is kinda like leading targets. That is just my own theory about deflecting blaster bolts.

P.S. Precognition is impossible in real life, even if you know the position of all particles. Thank Quantum Mechanics, in Newtonian physics however, the future can be calculated if the position of all particles are known. Quantum Mechanics is awesome! ( I am serious )

 

I forgot to add. Blasters don't travel at c ( or near c ), because from on screen evidence, they travel pretty slow.

I have I question that I am curious about.

How does Trek transporters work?

Is is based on Quantum Mechanics and String Theory?

 

Dude, in a debate we are having for fun, you just chewed me out for continuing the debate for fun. The whole POINT of this thread/discussion is to have fun discussing and debating ST-v-SW, for the sake of discussing/debating ST-v-SW, and that includes exploring the various possible explanations for and implications of the data the lore presents to us. That is not only how you do science, that is the whole POINT OF THE THREAD.

If you don't want to do that, I suggest you find a different thread.

 

What Ilithi said is true mate. This is for fun

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Are we wandering off the point of our conversation AGAIN!!? Is it some sort of habit that you simply can't stick to discussing something relevant?

See, I didn't chew you out for continuing, I suggested you forget about the point that I MYSELF brought up because you wander off and lose track, like you've just done again when clearly, I have opened up YOUR point for discussion, which in return, you chose not to follow up on THAT but to respond about me chewing you out.

As for finding a different thread, let me ask you: Do you run this forum? If not, try not behaving like you do. If you don't and you try to give me an ultimatum like that, I'll tell you to shove it someplace painful because I don't bend to your rules unless you're an authority around here. After checking your account: (Joined 6-10) and you only have half as many posts, yet you wanna act like you can dictate the manner in which I behave??

Oh, an aspiring author, working on a book? Coincidentally it sounds like somebody I recently met over at youtube, in which case, if you are that person, then we should be getting along so lets squash this nonsense either way and try behaving like civilized individuals. Then we can get back to discussing the point you brought up:

Yeah, we commented on that and were in discussion about it, and my evidence against that still holds far better because it's the same deal across almost every sci-fi movie: Something traveling at c would not show up on film, so they automatically have to have it moving at visible speeds. And I back that up with supporting evidence that sci fi films are made to appeal to the audience and don't hesitate to change the science of it: Sound FX in space, and it's one of the things I love most about SW, but we know it would be more accurate if it was silent.

SO - light speed objects have to be slowed down to show up on film anyway, and THAT is FACT. Whether it happens to be the reason blaster bolts don't travel faster is still open for debate. However, suggesting that Jedi reaction proves they're going slow - I disagree.

As is mine. Precognition is key, because oh yeah - On the Falcon, Luke deflected bolts he couldn't even see, his saber in motion towards where the next shot would be aimed even before the little orb fired. He was wearing a helmet that blocked his vision. Wouldn't matter how fast the bolts traveled, he wasn't using hand-eye coordination, so jedi certainly don't need slower speed because there's no need to see it coming.

With Precognition, Jedi react to the fact an enemy WILL fire shots. To succeed, they'd almost need to be in position, waiting for the shot to be fired, knowing that it's destination and arrival will land shots directly where the blade will be. Considering shots would be fired from different distances, they're not even reacting to who fires first, since a shot from someone closer would reach a target sooner, they would know to defend precisely in the order the shots would arrive.

Which I must say - is pretty bad-ass. And speaking of deflecting shots, Wonder Woman used bracelets with far less room for error against a machine gun at short range. lol Canon guys that love numbers can check tommy gun performance specs and tell if you think she's using precognition. As a superhero, she's not much on super powers, and I'd put her at about where batman is - a normal person with special gear.

 

Blaster bolts are seen to be slower then bullets. And here is another thing, it is below Mach as well, because the sound is simultaneous with the bolt being fired, not after.

 

I am not really supporting a side here, I am just making interjections.

 

So I am obligated by your command to focus only on one specific topic at a time, to maintain absolutely strict adherence to a single topic that you specify? I cannot simultaneously discuss other topics, sub-points or side-issues, just because you say so? Just because you have more posts than me on a particular forum on the internet? Just because you've been a member longer? Whoop-dee-frickin-do. I couldn't care less about member time or post count; mine, yours or anyone else's.

And you criticize me for giving telling you what to do (and for the record, I gave a suggestion, not an ultimatum, which typically involves a command to do X or face Y consequences)?

You did chew me out for continuing the discussion of a point you brought up, in a debate which has no subject mandate other than the general ST-v-SW topic established in the OP. Prophet and I had agreed to focus on a couple specific topics, just to facilitate discussion, but there was no mandate forbidding side-discussion or discussion of other topics, just an agreement between Prophet and myself to try and maintain focus on a handful of points at a time.

You have no more authority to mandate what I discuss in this thread than you say I have to mandate what you discuss. I have every right to continue down a side-discussion if I want to, regardless of who originally brought it up. If you don't like those side points or what I present on those side points, you can either refute them with posts of your own, or just don't read my posts on the subject. Nobody is holding a gun to your head and making you read them, let alone continue to participate in that side-discussion if you don't want to.

Your argument is that this data should be disregarded because it is unreliable. My argument that it is perfectly valid in this case, because:

1. The bolts travel significantly slower than is required to create a pretty light show on-screen

2. Even with precognition, there are physical limitations to what a human body can do. Human limbs and lightsabers lack infinite acceleration, and the human body has a definite limit of acceleration that it can generated and endure, and neither possess the ability to occupy multiple points in space simultaneously. If the bolts were moving at lightspeed, the lightsaber (and everything directing its position) would be required to be in multiple points in space simultaneously in order to block all the blaster bolts we see Jedi block, and many of them would require absurd movement speed from one blocking position to the next, orders of magnitude beyond what the human body is capable of. Some instances would require the blade to be instantly repositioned, which translates to infinite acceleration and deceleration.

I fully recognize that Jedi have some amount of precognitive ability, but that is beside the point. Even if they knew exactly where very single shot would land, it will do them absolutely no good when those shots are impacting simultaneously, or near instantly after each other, especially at widely divergent points. A lightsaber simply cannot be in two places at once, and Jedi simply do not have the ability to move their lightsaber from one position to the next instantly.

Against a single gunman with a low rate of fire, precog alone would generally be enough, but against a gunman with a high rate of fire, or multiple gunmen, no amount of precog will be sufficient.

What do the abilities of Wonder Woman (lol a super-human creation of a Greek goddess, not a "normal person with special gear"), a completely different character from a completely different universe, have anything to do with the abilities of the Jedi or human beings in general? There is no correlation between the reflex speed of Superwoman and the reflex speed of a Jedi.

 

Perhaps in some situations, that two bolts will hit the lightsaber at once ( eg. one near the hilt, one near the tip ). The physical limits are why Jedi are not invincible and got owned in Order 66, however they have superior physical abilities compared to the average person. You have to keep in mind the ability of the gunman. The Jedi block it then move it to the line of fire, just as the gunman pull the trigger. Perhaps the Jedi influences the gunman's decisions in a way? When facing multiple gunman, they can use precognition to escape the lines of fire, not the bolt itself. If the Jedi can get the lightsaber there before the gunman pull the trigger then yeah.......

The blaster's speed is not of question if the trigger is not pulled and the target is not in the line of fire, or have a lightsaber in the line of fire.

 

But that brings another point. The Jedi aren't just going to stand there and take it. They could run/jump greater than the average human and could easily make it to the gunman to terminate the threat. And if they can't get to the target, then they could get the heck out of there. Just look at when Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were in the hall right outside the bridge of the Trade Federation ship. They were met by Droideka's and they were able to deflect the shots. When they realised they couldn't win, they got away from them.

Mace Windu faced three Super Battledroids, which do have high rates of fire, and was able to block all the shots while simultaneously getting out of there. It was when he was on the balcony of the Geonosian Arena in AotC.