Star Wars vs Star Trek

Discussion in 'SciFi & Fantasy' started by Pollux V, May 9, 2002.

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Which universe would win?

  1. Star Trek

    227 vote(s)
    35.5%
  2. Star Wars

    268 vote(s)
    41.9%
  3. Spaceballs

    47 vote(s)
    7.3%
  4. Farscape

    12 vote(s)
    1.9%
  5. Dune

    50 vote(s)
    7.8%
  6. Stargate

    36 vote(s)
    5.6%
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  1. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,447
    haven't watched it so i can't comment. it does look a bit silly though. why would someone imploy such a limited spectrum to their battledroids in the first place? i bet they only wanted to make them look more like soldiers from today. that's why i love Hyperion. FORCE's marines have their enhanced vision augments incorporated in their helmet's visors. not just zooming and targeting, but multiple spectrum nad target analasys features. Hyperion would rule in ground combat. seaing how a small flotila can blow off a star's corona, they could probably rule in space combat too, at least on a system level.
     
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  3. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

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    1,099
    Actually, the B1's were meant to guard cargo transports for the Trade Federation to begin with; they were just cheap mass produced junk meant to deal with thieves and pirates. So it really isn't actually all that surprising as to why it would need them. The B2 however, would have less of an excuse.
     
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  5. mendez256 Registered Member

    Messages:
    6
    Sorry to ruin everyones SW fun but all UFP ships have nevigational deflectors, if not all ships in the STU. This aid in flying through space also deflects or defuses (not sure which) laser fire. Rendering almost all SW weapons almost useless. I say almost as some of the energy gets through but not enough to be of serious threat to a starship unless theres hundreds of vessels firing thousands of lasers on a single target.

    Someone said that SW sheilds were ion and didn't stop pjysical objects. A photon torpedo is a physical object. With technology seen in several DS9 episodes with torpedo turrets on station able to fire rapidly at multiple targets with high accuracy. Who needs phasers when you can ignore someones shielding and blow huge holes in thier hull with anti-matter warheads. Not forgetting Quantum torpedoes and Tri-cobalt torpedoes. Although someone noted somewhere Tri-cobalts do nothing to shields. It would pass right through thier shields and do damage where its designed to do damage, on the hull of enemies.

    And lets not forget our old friend ablative armor, which people keep telling me could replace shields on federation ships. Not really trusting them on that but it is rather strong and a few centimetres of it proves ships with outstanding protection.

    If a fleet of SW ships met an equal number of UFP ships, the UFP would fly in fire volley after volley of torpedoes at the rather exposed bridges of ISD's and SSD's. Having watched Return of the Jedi, where 1 fighter crashes into the bridge of 1 of these massive ships, the result of which was catastrophic. Replace fighter with photon and you have one destroyed fleet in minutes. This peice also showed how weak an SSD must be if 1 fighter can fly straight at thier bridge and destroy the entire ship. Yes it crashed into the Death Star but if that wasn't there what would of happened? Spin out of control in half the fleet? Maybe recovery and continue on firing? We'll never know.

    Fact - SW shields are useless and pointless as far as I can see.
    Fact - ST torpedoes could pass through SW shields and cause massive damage.
    Fact - ST ships can take thousands of laser blasts and still have thier shields going at 50% or more.

    Conclusion - SW would be raped.

    Everything I see only proves how useless the SW universe is. Damn UNSC ships from Halo would rip them apart with thier main cannon. Stargate and Halo use nukes (Mark 9 and NOVA bomb) which could pass through SW shields and incinerate the whole ship or crack a planet in half in the case of a NOVA.

    Anything else I don't know enough about to form an opinion and that's what this is my opinion. Just happens to be fact aswell.

    If you disagree.
    Name 1 time a physical object bounced off SW shields. It's my whole arguement.
    SW is useless as a rock could destroy an entire ship with it's shields up by flying at speed through thier power generator.

    In a ground battle I'd geuss SW might win with droids but that's about the only up side to SW I see. Oh wait ST has Jem'Hadar and Reman for front line troops. Nevermind.
     
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  7. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

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    4,149
    Actually you might have a point here, if SW used lasers as weak as the ones in the "The Out Ragous Okona." The problem is that Star Wars uses "lasers" that have an output far greater than the output of the entire Warp core. Even is somehow the navigational deflecters were to somehow mystically bec able to block any laser, it would need to expend at least as much power as the incoming laser to do so.

    The other problem is that SW Turbolasers do not seem to behave like other lasers. The beam is slightly sub C, though as fast as phasers, and seems to have mass unlike lasers which do not.

    SW has two types of shielding. Ray shielding, which indeed can stop most physical items and Particle shielding which stops enything ray shields do not. So your idea again does not work, especially since Trek torpedoes are not even as powerful and current day Tomahawk cruise missile.

    Yeah, and Imperial ships come with Meter thick nuetronium impregnated armor. Sotell me do you think a few centimeters of quasi real material is more protective than meters of a real material.

    Well, the problem is that the shields on the Exectutioner had to be battered down by dozens of ships and the targeting sensors had to be heavily damage. Then and only then did a out of control A-wing manage to ram the bridge. You're proposing that Photon Torpedoes be able to make the same shots, which is unlikly as they are not the most accurate of weapons.


    Actual fact: Star Wars shields stand up to barrages of 200 gigaton level broadsides for hours during battle. In comparrison, Star trek can barely withstand a several hundred tons of firepower.

    Actual Fact: We have seen nothing to support this evidence. In fact canon indicates the complete opposite.

    True, if the power level is considerably lower. The weapons used in Outrageous okona were only 60 megawats. The weapons in on a SW vessel are 60 billion gigawats in 1/15th of a second, quite a diffence in power since the USS Enterprise D could only put out 12.5 billion gigawatts per second.

    Your conclusion is flawed by your flawed understanding of canon and the information given.

    Incorrect again. Halo and Stargate are not even on the same level as Star Trek and likely would have no effect on Star Wars tech.


    The asteroids bouncing off the shields of the Millenium Falcon in ANH and ESB. The Asteroids being incinerated by the shields of the Executioner in ESB. The asteroid that hit the Avenger in ESB was pulverized by shields and armor. Especially since later the Avenger (the ship that was hit by the Asteroid in the bridge tower) is the very same ship Han hides the Falcon on in ESB.

    Sorry but SW has the advatage of armor (as in tanks and walkers), artillery, combined arms tactics, and heavy weapons. Since phasers and disrupter would not harm packing crates, Stormtrooper armor would be viable armor for Star Wars infantry.
     
  8. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,149
    Okay to save on manufacturing costs and simplify design you choose the optic package that would work under 99% of the situations you expect in combat. Probably normal human vision with a few enhancements like improved lowlight vision, glare reduction, and basic HUD. this would work for 99.9% of your droids as they have no need for anything different. Command droids, and artillery spotters, less that .15 of your force would have need of telescopics. and ranging information. Ease of manufacture just means you make some sopecialized binoc for them. Especially since the only difference between line trooper and commander is some extra programming.

    It's an economic principal at work here.
     
  9. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,938
    I thought we were talking about a government with "a production capacity and economy far in excess of the entire star trek galaxy" scotch... since when did saving money become an issue?
     
  10. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,938
    Welcome Mendez... and try not to go crazy as you attempt, in vain might I add, to assimilate this mess of fanboy semen and sperm known as WANK.

    This is TWScotch, our resident drunk. He's a hoot at parties!
     
  11. Lord Vasago bcd Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    827
    WTF this thing is still going on ? I remember when it was in below 70 pages now 655???

    And let me guess still the same ? Shields vs Firepower lmao
     
  12. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    Really? Would this explain wjy rather than just creating a series of blasts in front of the Falcon that would create shockwaves powerful enough to turn it into subatomic particles upon impact, they decided to chase it in?

    Oh, right.

    Actually phasers have a sort of three second time thing; no matter how far away the object is, it almost always takes about the same amount of time. But yes, at similiar ranges, the speed of phasers isn't that much greater.



    I call bullshit. Rise clearly indicates a multimegaton photon torpedo. Furthermore, we have indications from other episodes that suggest much more power. Any lower ratings comes from the fact that torpedoes have adjustable yields, as Archer put it:

    It can put a three kilometer crater into an asteroid, or knock a navigational dish off a shuttle without scratching the paint.

    Incorrect. According to Lucas's own novels (or the guy who wrote it for him...whatever), the metal rapidly melts in lava, which actually makes it less effective than steel. Of course, I would suspect that it's probably an alloy that while not as resistant, is probably much less dense and is probably pretty heavily layered.

    Again we have an issue here. The Executor is downright massive; her shield generators should have been the ones the size of Hoth's own generator itself...and yet a few ships took it down. Less ships then Warsies mock the UFP for sporting in Wolf 359.

    Also, I call bullshit on your claims of low accuracy; photon torpedoes are very accurate and almost always hit. In ST 6, we saw a torpedo modified to follow an ion trail (something that was done in about five minutes) hit the tail pipe of a bird of prey; something that's far more manuverable than the Enterprise 1701 herself.

    Actual fact: You're full of shit. Evidence has been provided in this threat that not only is Saxton's calculations often wrong, but is not considered canon by George Lucas and thus isn't worth mentioning.

    Fuck, according to Saxton's books, a Star Destroyer could depopulate a planet just by flying by it with the stupid engine outputs he gives.

    The highest canon calc we have is about a megaton of firepower from the REvenge of the Sith novel, and half a megaton with the movie. The only weapon we see stronger than this is a weapon that was used only once in an isolate incident that was never employed during fleet battles, even when it would have been immensly useful.

    Actual Fact: Federation starships give out and take hundreds of megatons of firepower. Even the NX-01 could dish out a torpedo of about fifty mebatons on occasion. Even the Enterprise D's main phaser array puts out about 18 megatons or so...probably higher since the calculation used steel as the baseline, despite the fact that the armor itself has shown to easily take KTs to the face without the SIF, and megatons with the SIF. Not to mention that even the old NX-01 series took megatons to the face.



    God you are such a liar.

    You have not proven that their ships are that powerful. Prove it or conceede. Nor is ignoring my replies making you look like you're actually winning. It is very apparent that you aren't replying because I've spanked your ass everytime you've tried.

    Also, the 12.5 billion gigawatt figure was given when the ship was in orbit of a planet without any major operations running.

    Wrong. AT-ATs and walkers have shown that they lack mush firepower; often just blowing small holes into things at worst. Most of them don't seem much more powerful than a normal blaster. The tanks themselves also show a lack of firepower; their weapons are about equel as modern day tanks.

    UFP shuttles are able to move better and have more firepower. Voyager's own shuttles were able to blow apart a semi with one shot; something that would take multiple shots from SW tanks or a shot from an AT-AT. Mircorphoton torps are also likely to give up much higher yields.


    Again, wrong.

    Phasers don't affect crates because the crates are made of a special material that resists phaser/disruptors. This is in the event of a phaser fight near someone's stuff; it has limited protection.

    The claim that these weapons are weak is contradicted by everything we see. We see them blowing up rocks, vaporizing people, blowing open doors, vaporizing large sections of stone, claims by high ranking officers of phasers being able to take out half a building, and many, many more examples that proves your stupid claims are absurd.

    Blasters on the other hand; rarely if ever make holes bigger than the size of a man's fist. Between the heat and the hole, it's a fairly effective killer, but given SW tactics, they're fairly worthless.
     
  13. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    SW weapons aren't actually lasers; they are more likely plasma-laser bolts, which would probably ignore the laser immunity trick.

    Yes and no. Planetary or Death Star shields are unable to stop physical objects; but SSD and ISD shields are perfectly capable of doing so. Not that it really matters; a photon torpedo is 100x stronger than a single turbolaser and all observed torpedoes are from fighters, which have the output of hand grenades.

    Ablative Generated Armor from teh 29th century could, but normal 24th century ablative armor could not. It adds as an extra protective layer after the shields failed.

    The bridge's shields were actually down, but that doesn't actually say much given that their shields had already failed...

    Not really, they're fairly good, but just aren't up to UFP specs.

    Not really, but it doesn't really matter; the torpedoes don't need any help.


    Hard to say. A Jem'Hadar fighter could literally take 150-300 HTL shots before it dies and the Prometheus could easily do much more; it resisted 300-600 MT shots even with shields at 20%. Not to mention it has ablative hull armor and regenerative shielding. Even pressuming that the 600 MT shots took out the shielding, that's still 3,000 megatons that the ship can shrug off.

    Their ships would be, yes. The Death Star and the SSDs are pretty massive though, so their shielding and output could be a threat, but in a fleet engagement neither would last.

    Mostly because the Death Star lacks the physical shields to stop the volleys that the ST ships would fire.

    Well, that's an interesting point. I don't doubt that the UNSC has better weapons...but the SW is vastly larger,so I would give that war to them. As for Stargate...it depends. The later Earth ships would be devistating, but Earth lacks the numbers needed. The ASgard would rape them and the Goa'uld could beat them, but they're all horribly incompetent. Not to mention that the loss of two ships is devistating to a System Lord.

    Actually, your average mook could do better than droids. Those things are horribly retarded.
     
  14. mendez256 Registered Member

    Messages:
    6
    Ok that's a maybe. But even without the nav deflector the shielding would hold for a while under fire. Giving hopefully enough time to destroy the laser turrets or bridge.


    Oh yeah I forgot those torpedoes. But ISD and SSD shielding could last how long with 70,000 Terawatts of phaser fire directed at them from 1 ship. And that's just 1 phaser. Canon specs.


    Ok fine but 24th century could last long enough for the ship to rotate and show another shielded area.


    Yeah if a SSD's shields are taken out that easily then there something wrong.


    In war advantage is everything.


    True thier pretty powerful on thier own. But like I said up a bit advatages are everything.


    That doesn't sound like much to me.


    Which is why I think SW shielding is useless. Although they do make up for it with the "super laser". If it could be mounted on something more agile it would be a dangerous weapon.


    Halo has covenant who have thousands of ships. UNSC also has SMAC tech. Which is a heavy round (several thousand tones) fired at a fraction of light speed at pin point accuracy capable of desimating other ships. With a reload tiem of 5 seconds. There are 300 guarding earth. 3600 rounds fired every minute. 3600 ships destroyed every minute. Covenant has plasma torpedoes and the energy projector. Plasma torpedoes burn through ships, 1 burned away a third of a UNSC destroyer. Energy projector fires at light speed and has cut right though 5 ships at one time with capability to do more. Although when against shielded targets they drain shielding fast.

    Your forgeting acient technology too. Drones pass through shields and rip ships apart. 1 drone fired from a puddle jumper damaged a wraith cruiser enough for it to withdraw.


    I was trying to give them some small amount of credit but you just stripped it all away.
     
  15. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,447
    yes i agree compleatly, it just seamed silly to me. at least get them a short IR acanner for foggy engagements. or enchanced night vision for night combat. in general i prefer the SW ground combat over the other visual franchises (no books). true they seam underpowered at moments, but there is nothing inherently wrong. they are the only major SF show/movie that even imploys combined arms (even if ther are at the level of late WWI and early WWII). other SF genres do not tackle this issue. ST barely shows any ground combat unless it is security issue, and such is the case with StarGate and Babylon5. Space above and Beyond is a bit better, but are even more archaic. if only we could have more examples to study, but we don't. this way, at leas as far as military doctrine goes, SW is the best bet (minus the walkers, i'd replace them with republic/rebel tanks and mechs any day of the week).
     
  16. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,447
    hey dude, i will not be as detailed as Hellblade and TWS, but those are very missinformed presumptions. to summerise 600 pages of debating, the lasers in SW apear to be lasers in name only, they imploy rayshields for energy based attack protection and much more rare particle shields for physical protection (their capital ships all have them) and SSDs are very well protected. they have relatively strong shields. in fact my guess would be that if in ST, the GCS firepoer/shieldpower rate is around 1:1 (a full power attack can just defeat a full power defence), in SW the same rate is probably closer to 1:3-1:5 in shields favor, as far as capital ships are at stake. it usually takes concentration of firepower from multiple ships to take down a similar target. this maybe a result of the inability to bare all weapons on a single target, but so it is. and the SSD apear to have a rather thick armour. some would imply it is neutronium (trying to compare it to the ST highly resistant neutronium), but the fact that a not that big of an asteroid, moving at not that fast closure obliterated the entire tower section of a SSDII negates this. eighter that, or neutronium is not very good against kinetic impacts. if what Hellblade sais is true and thier neutronium alloys melt in lava, then it must be a techincaly inferior neutronium then the one Jem'hadar are using.
     
  17. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    It probably wouldn't take all that long to be honest. The highest canon evidence of firepower from an ISD is one megaton. A photon torpedoe is 50-100 megatons depending on the yield of that specific torpedo. And they also have much heavier armaments. Even going with some generous calcs, your average SW ship is not going to last long.




    That's the ST manual right? Well, that's sorta out of date. Of course, we do have a 68,000 TW shot that the Enterprise did against the Borg cube, but it's also probably low end calculation, since the Daystrom Institute assumed it was just normal metal I think.


    The fight wouldn't really last long enough for it to come to that.


    It did have a great deal of ships firing upon it, but the point is the shielding of SW would not be so great if something as large as an SSD was taken down without something as powerful as the Death Star.

    Or at least to what Wong's little crows claim.

    Indeed it is.



    That's thirty photon torpedoes. Even more really, because of regenerative shielding (it slowly recovers when it isn't under fire). So you're looking at it taking well over three thousand shots from an ISD's or SSD's heavy guns before the ship is taken down. Well, their shields are taken down.


    Not useless...less useful yes, but not useless.


    Well, the Covenant might have a chance, but their government is fairly unstable (of course, so is the Empire...). So it depends on how that goes. If they can hold together, they could probably defeat the Empire. Now, the UNSC? I can't really see them winning. Their numbers are small. Too small. Give the Empire a bloody nose however.

    True, but the Empire has at least around 30,000 to 60,000 ISD level ships. Plus the Death Star.


    I calls them like a sees them.
     
  18. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,706
    Omg ur a moron. Yah sure it cant blow up a planet but it can annihalate everything left on it. That's like something some jealous little kid would say. "oooo it's not that cool even though it turns the planet into magma, it doesnt blow it up" i mean seriously. Anyways you know what the death star blowing planets up is a hinderence.
    it creates asteroid fields which rip apart larger ships. And to answer that stupid question of how the star destroyers survived in that field it is simple, tracter beams and if you guys bothered to look it up it is true. specifically you scott you xeno phobic, homophobic, living with your mama liar. Look stuff up before u make it up u wont sound as rtarded
     
  19. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,447
    so being right makes me a moron? funny thing to come from someone that does not know what the cobalt frame nuclear device does.
     
  20. mendez256 Registered Member

    Messages:
    6
    Sweet. Depends if SW could adapt..... wait what am I saying, adapt lmfao.


    ditl.org defiant's only type X phaser. the TypeXII's on Soveriegn are 100,000 TeraWatts.




    Uh. Yet again trying to give credit to them and failing.


    And the fragility of the SSD's ability to operate without a bridge. All if not most of the UFP's ships have battle bridges deep inside thier hull or could be controled through engineering if they have too.



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    Hmmmm. Seems weaker than I thought but still strong. And by the time it was hit by 3000 shots the battle would be over. SW lasers seem rather inaccurate.


    Same thing really.


    Covenant government before the brutes started screwing everything up they would win but now with covenant split it's hard to say. Although on the ground a pair of hunters could rip apart SW troops and armor alike. UNSC would probably use rebelion tactics. Hit and run with large numbers of ships on shipyards or other key locations then slipspace away. In slipspace noone can attack you without slipspace generators. Although in all out war SW would overwelm them as UNSC posses no shielding and use titanium for armor.


    Numbers games doesn't mean instant victory. Wraith vs Atlantis. Gou'ald vs Earth.


    Can't fault you for that. Driods don't think for themselves.
     
  21. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

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    1,099
    Shut the fuck up.
     
  22. Lord Vasago bcd Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    827
    maybe we should lure the ST ships into the asteroid field and let the massive wormthingy eat them. would save us on petfood lmao
     
  23. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    You realize the sheer amount of deflector dish's on that fleet would actually cuase the asteroid to be pushed away...right?

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    Also, Star Trek has nebula monsters...giant worms are cute in comparison.
     
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