Star Wars vs Star Trek

Discussion in 'SciFi & Fantasy' started by Pollux V, May 9, 2002.

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Which universe would win?

  1. Star Trek

    227 vote(s)
    35.5%
  2. Star Wars

    268 vote(s)
    41.9%
  3. Spaceballs

    47 vote(s)
    7.3%
  4. Farscape

    12 vote(s)
    1.9%
  5. Dune

    50 vote(s)
    7.8%
  6. Stargate

    36 vote(s)
    5.6%
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  1. Sardonic Crisis The God Emperor Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    220
    Might I note that since SW no longer contends Dune's supremacy then SW has already been subjugated and is no longer in the debate. (Perhaps it's because they can't attack my sources and I work around their liberal use of 'canon' and I also don't contend its validity in arguments)
     
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  3. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

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    4,149
    The movies do indeed override any EU in direct conflict
    . However there is not a lot the Movies override in truth. Just a few things that would not even affect this war.

    Incorrect. You are vastly underestimating the power needed to destroy all life on a planet, let alone destroy it or destroy a solar system. An ISD can provide a BDZ which makes a palents completely uninhabitable for a long time. But it could not shatter a planets. Hell even the asteroid that wiped out the dinos did not wipe out every living thing on Earth and it was thousands of times more powerful than the projected output of a Heavy Turbolaser.

    Actually he said "It would take a thousand ships with more firepower than I have...Wait we have company."

    We have never seen this, and in fact it has never even been proposed. So you're just pull lies out of your ass.
     
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  5. Sardonic Crisis The God Emperor Registered Senior Member

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    See ST2 and 3. The genesis torpedo does, in fact, destroy a planet by making its core unstable not to mention destroying all life on a planet to use a resources for the new planet it creates. This does, in fact, take time to do... well not the wiping out of life, but the destruction of the planet itself.


    And just a question for everyone out there. How powerful would a weapon have to be to burn a hole to the core of a planet AND ignite that core to fracture the planet into lifeless bits?
    I'm trying to figure out the yield of a stoneburner. NOTE: The stoneburner reveals how far it delves in a matter of minutes as read in Dune Messiah... giving an idea of the rate at which it burns.
     
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  7. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

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    You can't declare victory that easily, SC. Besides you haven't the resources or firepower to even think of taking on the Hutts let alone the whole Star Wars galaxy. Since low level atomic weapons are your best weapons i doubt anything you throw at an ISD would even strain the shields.

    What do you have for Starships? What is your form of FTL communication? What is can your ground forces do against orbital bombardment? What would anyone one do after Telexiu, Arrakhis and several other Great House planets were destroyed in just one day. No communication from the planet concerning how it happened, just a molten slag of rock where a planet had been?

    Dune wouldn't even be able to take on Farscape let alone Star Wars, they just don;t have the Naval ability.

    Sure you could say the Guild could attack SW planets instantly, but what planet is going to give up it's defensive fleet to help raise such an attack? What planet would allow their ships to leave when they might very well be needed for defense? The answer is none.

    So at best you get a few highliners and a few warships, all blown out of the sky a second after they appear.

    Sheer firepower owns you each time.
     
  8. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,149
    that might be a feasible device, however only two were built and the ONLY person who knew how they operated was brutally murdered. Any SW monkey who can follow plans can build a Death Star, but there will never be another gensis device.

    However the Genesis device did not destroy a planet, it condenced one froma nebula which is part of why it was unstable.




    Well you have to overcome gravitational binding energy. For a planet earthsized that is equivalnet to...2.2E32 joules that is without melting through the rock between surface and core. And is accounting for a slow breakup of the planet.


    However you will note that despite it being designed to do that it failed, so not good for your argument.
     
  9. Sardonic Crisis The God Emperor Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    220
    See the foldspace weapon contention I presented to the ST side of the fence but you guys ignored. Plus Dune outnumbers SW as a whole because Dune is multi-galactic.

    1. Guild ships and innumerable no-ships of various types.

    2. No-ship scouts with instantaneous travel.

    3. Orbital attacks can only go so far. Are you going to destroy your own cities trying to oust Bene Gesserit/Honored Matres attack forces? Yeah destroy your own resources.

    4.
    A. Arrakhis is already a molten slag of rock.
    B. The point of the scattering was to make Dune civilization no longer reliant on a centralized source... you know... The Golden Path.
    C. You have to know that those planets are command centers before you target them.

    HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHa! So does that mean Farscape pwns SW?

    The entire Honored Matres force is transient... they would be perfectly willing to rape the SW universe one planet at a time in their No-ships.

    You'll have much more numbers in your skies.... multi-galactic remember!

    Firepower means nothing in the face of superior tactics. Isn't America STILL in Iraq? Wasn't the American Revolution a bunch of hicks taking on the all-powerful British infantry? I'm completely at a loss as to why ST and SW argues firepower so much when tactics are the key to winning. Anyone read The Art Of War? War is won by superior deception and Dune definitely trumps SW on that front.


    And for god's sake TW, stop disregarding Heretics and Chapterhouse. The majority of my arguments derive from that. Remember, those were written by FRANK HERBERT. Additionally, I have put up contentions against what you present even IF they are liberally labeled canon. Brian Herbert does own the rights to the Dune universe and I dare you to find a quote from Frank that says he can't do with it what he wills.
     
  10. Sardonic Crisis The God Emperor Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    220
    The info was placed in Starfleets database at high security access. See ST 3.

    The nebula interacted with the nearby planet along with the genesis device. Kirk chastises his son for speeding up the building process which is why the planet was unstable.

    and what does that translates to as a weapon yield.

    It was not used for that purpose. The initial blast was suppose to kill Paul. He was merely noting whether or not they were reckless with the amount of fuel. Plus it would not make sense destroying the spice that they sought to free from his grip.
     
  11. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,149
    Dune may be multigalactic, but each world is so sparsely populated as to be laughable. 12 million was considered a very impressive number on a planet.

    As for the space fold weapon show me where it was used. Then we will speak

    No ships would not likely be able to hide against foes who can detect other universal travel in a 100 light year radius. And since Atomics was their WMD i doubt any ship is going to be armed

    Yeah and as you are fading into view you're whole ship systems go offline form ion canon fire.

    How are you going to get on planet? Kinda hard to get on a planet and get through customs in a repressive regime. Not to mention god forbit one of the reverend mothers meets a darkside adept, or one of the emperors hounds. She'd never live to tell the tale.

    .
    Well, i was talking back when Frank was alive and still writing and it was actually a cool universe.

    Still there is no such thing as a truly independant country or in Dune's case planet.

    Just watching the traffic too and from would be a BIG clue. You don;t think SW would go in blind do you?

    No, it means even Frascape would PWN Dune. Hell even Earth Above and Beyond would PWN Dune

    And the SW universe would see them coming. Remeber they are only invisible to the naked eye and to spice prescience not Force Prescience or gravity sensros. Hell Palaptine would let them come to Curuscant and decloak so they could fire and then uncloak two ISD per No-ship just to scare the Honored Matres shitless before they died horrible deaths at the wrong ends of weapons that would completely anhilate their ships.

    Multiglatic, but with around 12 million per planet and a thousand great houses. If there were some many numbers the Emperor could have just came with 50 billion troops and owned the Fremen, but he didn;t becuase he didn;t have the troops. neither do you. Multigalatic you might be but it does not mean you have more worlds or people.

    Actually the War in Iraq is over. Right now we are just trying to help rebuild a nation and some idiots are making life difficult by targeting civillians. Remeber the US crushed Saddam in just three weeks.

    America actually had the superior weapons. Britsh were using smooth bore muskets, not the accurate rifles the americans had. Plus in the south the britsh troops were crippled by malaria.

    As for the Art of War, that assumes to enemies of reasonably equal caliber. If Sun Tzu was alive today his book would be written differently. Weapons do make the difference. Look at the last Samurai Rebellion, thei Samurai were undoubtedly the better warriors, but were killed to the last by superior firepower.

    As for the deception thing, no one beats Palpatine, the man had Yoda, Windo, Kenobi, Amidala, and the whole damn galaxy fooled untill it was to late.

    Well can you find me something Frank said that says Brian can? I'll bet not. In fact I'll bet if there was anything it was a list of limitation Frank wanted the kid to follow.

    Can you find me an instance where Dune has displayed any technology that could possibly compete with the Death Star?

    Even the Holtzman field would not protect them. Especially given how it reacts to near light speed particles. Once ST figured that out, all their phasers would fire pulses and there would laughs as the DUne ships were destroyed by low power settings.
     
  12. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,149
    Saw ST3 and nobody knew David had used protomatter. No one. Not even his mother.

    Kirk did not chastise him at all. What movie did you see? Becuase it was not Star Trek 2 or Star Trek 3. The planet was unstable becuase it was a colapse nebula and the device that did it was made with protomatter. how is that difficult to understand.


    Well 1 gram of TNT is 4.18E3 joules....52,631,578,947,368.4 gigatons. Now that is the extreme lower end limit of a weapon such as the Death Star Superlaser

    Okay, if they wanted to kill Pual why not use the full yeild after leading him off planet? You are ascribing extra data from what we have seen and read. They used a full blown Stone-burner and it failed spectacularly. Which leads me to believe that the Stoneburner was not as effective as they thought it would be.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2008
  13. Saquist Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,256
    Apparently very difficult because you got it wrong.
    The Genesis Device was unstable because of the use of Protomatter.
    David took short cuts to solves the problems with the matrix.

    No where in that movie did it say that the nebula caused the instability.
    So I must ask what movie did YOU see?
     
  14. Saquist Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,256
    The Wiki is your kryptonite, TW.
    "Gene Roddenberry sold Star Trek to NBC as a classic adventure drama"

    What ever control Roddenberry had was...how shall we say, a vasal authority.
    So clean up that "BS" sitting on your lip, eh?



    And yet you get it wrong again. Are these concepts to difficult for you to appreciate? They seem simple enough to me. G-Canon is absolute.

    Absolute:
    Having and exercising complete political power and control. ​


    No other canon is absolute.
    In otherwords the stories which are dependent on the movies and cannot dictate canon that is established.
    You can't say in more simple to understand terms...

    for example:
    The Rebel Fleet Fired on the Executor according to the EU.
    The thinking being since the movie did not say the captial ships did not execute a bombardment that the EU understanding is now G-canon.

    That would be wrong. It's still an understanding of lesser canon. Not absolute. So if the movie didn't show it....then it didn't happen. That's the nature of absolute. What you see it what you get and what you didn't see...didn't happen.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2008
  15. Flectarn Unregistered User Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    347

    hm, my understanding of the scene was that prior to ackbars order to focus on the ssd, the mon cal cruisers had mainly been engaging the ISD's (the ones they would likely have a chance again). Fighters may have been providing as SJ says, providing harassment fire (which has to do damage to have any consequence, or be effective in distracting a ship)

    also, why are the the Mon Cal cruisers worried about the Tie's (when the ISD's arn't attacking) if fighters of no consequence alone.

    Ok, I still haven't seen attack of the clones...

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    The HEAT round thing would be a good counter, if the generator looked remoatly armored, hell, it those torp things hit support struts, and make the generator collapse on it's self which causes most of the explosion we see.
     
  16. SkywalkerJedi アスラン・ザラ ( Athrun "Alex" Zala ) Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,493
    So is Star Wars. Star Wars galaxy inculdes the Galactic Republic, Rishi Maze, Yuuzhan Vong Empire.


    They will be willing to go that far.






    You do realise that there are the GAR, CIS and Imperial forces to take care of.


    So is Star Wars, the Yuuzhan Vong entered the galaxy in Vector Prime.
    In Heir To the Empire, and other books in Thrawn Triology you would find Imperial tactics superior. The Republic is also a good example of fine tactics. Also the Jedi can use Battle Meditation to help.
     
  17. SkywalkerJedi アスラン・ザラ ( Athrun "Alex" Zala ) Registered Senior Member

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    1,493
    Yet alot of times EU explains alot of things that happens between movies.
    For example Anakin got the scar from Ventress, which is accuate in anyway, it also explains Anakin's rage. Rebel Fleet did fire on Executor, review the movies but it didn't do the lethal blow, and Gold Squdron is apart of the Rebel fleet.
     
  18. SkywalkerJedi アスラン・ザラ ( Athrun "Alex" Zala ) Registered Senior Member

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    1,493
    It is also small enough for sabatoge missions, tracking and it is used to attack smaller support craft.

    The Mon Calmiri Cruisers didn't even care about the TIEs. " Only the Starfighters are attacking, I wonder what are the Star Destroyers waiting for ?"- Lando Carrissian. Also they were worries because the ISD might just suddenly attack. It is no consequence to bigger ships, but not to support and light armed, shields and armored ships.

    Man, attack of the clones were out in 1996. No, it hit the middle of the power generator that run on hypermatter, it destroyed the thing middle that caused the whole thing to collapse, and Proton Tropedoes are used as flank weapons on Starfighters, and concussion missiles are stronger.
     
  19. Flectarn Unregistered User Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    347
    I assume by 1996 you mean 2002...
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0121765/

    http://www.blueharvest.net/scoops/rotj-script.shtml

    There would be no need to draw their fire away from the cruisers if the ties were no threat to the cruisers (though i have a hard time believing the TIE is much of a threat to anything... but thats another matter entirely)
     
  20. SkywalkerJedi アスラン・ザラ ( Athrun "Alex" Zala ) Registered Senior Member

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    1,493
    They would be a threat to lighter armed, armored and shielded support craft and Starfighters, especially TIE Defenders, TIE Interpectors and TIE Bombers that have concussion missiles and heavier lasers. They need to defend the Starfighters for the entery into the Death Star.
     
  21. Flectarn Unregistered User Registered Senior Member

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    347
    I wasn't aware that a cruiser was a lightly armed and armored support craft.

    there are no TIE defenders, Interceptors or Bombers in this engagement just the crappy little tinfoil fighters. Nor do they use an missiles

    if they were going to defend the star fighters so they could enter the death star they wouldn't use those very same fighters to draw the ties away from the cruisers. remember Lando's on the falcon at this time... part of the fighter force attacking the DS
     
  22. SkywalkerJedi アスラン・ザラ ( Athrun "Alex" Zala ) Registered Senior Member

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    1,493
    Depend on the class rating. Yes there are TIE Defenders, Interceptors and bombers, review Battle of Endor, if you look carefully you can find them, I saw one in your youtube clip, you just need to know what they look like. The Death Star's ray shields are on, and they alos need to protect some light frigates.

    TIE Defenders

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    TIE Interceptors ( also called TIE Indictor ) is not in the battle but TIE Bomber is

    TIE Bomber

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  23. SkywalkerJedi アスラン・ザラ ( Athrun "Alex" Zala ) Registered Senior Member

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    Sorry I was wrong, there are TIE Interceptors in the battle



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    The first four fighters are interceptors.
     
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