Star Wars vs Star Trek

Discussion in 'SciFi & Fantasy' started by Pollux V, May 9, 2002.

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Which universe would win?

  1. Star Trek

    227 vote(s)
    35.5%
  2. Star Wars

    268 vote(s)
    41.9%
  3. Spaceballs

    47 vote(s)
    7.3%
  4. Farscape

    12 vote(s)
    1.9%
  5. Dune

    50 vote(s)
    7.8%
  6. Stargate

    36 vote(s)
    5.6%
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  1. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

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    1,099
    Not really, they've also been known to pull a few tricks out of their hats via scanning and just managing to deduce the answer that they need. Not that they would need such a trick against a ship that's about over a hundred years out of date.



    We have no idea how the deflector dish works, but it does work off gravity. Simple alterations to the deflector dish could reasonably just deflect the energy without having to match the energy.


    Except we have the problem of warp. Warp takes a great deal of energy. The container Wesley had was at least around a megaton, or 500 kilotons per second (the ship could stay in warp for only two seconds). That's 2,090,000 gigajoule sfor warp one per second. Presuming a constant increase of energy for each new warp level, that gives us 18,810,000 gigajoules per second. Add that to 12,750,000,000 gigawatts, then 100,000,000 gigawatts for the phaser arrays, then another 3,913,000,000 for her shield, and you easily get 15, 952,090,000 gigawatts. So at the very least, the Borg cube absorbed 3,816 megatons a second. Of course, we could easily push this up to 4 gigatons, because the ship was clearly pouring out a great deal of energy to do so. Now, the energy beam was on for at least 30-60 seconds. that's 120-240 gigatons of energy. That the Borg laughed off. Even assuming that it was taxing their shields, we're looking at 200-300 gigaton shielding. Since most weapons from an ISD or an SSD is .5 to 1 megaton, that's would require an absurd amount of hits to stop a cube, more so when you consider the intensity is much lower and spread out all over the cube rather in just one place.


    State canon source, because ICS and EU do not count. You have been told this. And no, ignoring my comments won't help you, it just makes your arguments look all the more weak.

    You're looking at the Cube literally raping entire fleets.
     
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  3. Saquist Banned Banned

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    Indeed.
    I have be discriminate the ICS books and the manuels. There is not relation with it's estimates of fire power with that which is easily apparent is frequently sub-megaton and in many cases sub kiloton.
     
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  5. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    A simple way the Federation could win, on their own:

    Modify their shield grid to produce a gravity well and extend the shields to maximum distance from the ship. The resultant gravity shift would, literally, deflect TL and HTL bursts and even Torpedoes and Ion blasts... since obviously they all have a physical mass

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  7. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

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    Imperial ships don't have research labs. Research is done in remote facilities that no ST vessels could even think of surviving.

    Actually becuase even the slightest flaw and the miror burns and is destroyed rather than reflecting. Even dust on the surface renders it useless.

    Second, the graviton shield is therhetical at best and unfortunately only a viable particle in one subset of hypothetical physics. And even is you created the field, again you would have to exert as much energy as was coming in. There is no free rides.

    Okay, one watt maintained for one second equal one joule same as one joule transferred in one second is a watt. You don;t get to get out of this argument as easily as you think. Watts are a measure of work done in a set amount of time. The point is watts translates directly to joules as long as the time involved is one second. If the time is more the joules go up, if less the watts go up. It's a simple concept even 4 year olds can grasp.


    Actually i had gotten mine second hand and had been using it unopposed. However if you are correct.If this is correct the power of heavy turbolasers is vastly increased and Quad Turbolasers are to Turblolaser are to Quad Lasers are to laser cannons. The rapid fire version of the normal weapons. Meaning a heavy Turbolaser would be even more powerful that the Quad Turbolaser.

    You don't get to see a problem as it is canon, but I will humor you

    Are you kidding? A 1.2 terraton impact into limestone barely cuased a short iceage from the dust it kicked up. A directed enery beam is more likely to cuase global warming as it makes deep pool of molten material.

    Again on the Tanks. Why is it so hard to believe that the Trade Federation Tanks were carrying 6 megaton laser cannons. They are similiar size to the fighters and their main cannon seems to operate with a variable power setting and rate of fire. High power slow shooting for enemy bombardment and low power rabid shooting for taking out infantry. Also one will note that 6 megatons is quite adequate for taking down asteroids as well.

    1. The data cannot be exaggerated It is canon and you must live with it.
    2. The ICS series of books were wrotten in an earth fram of reference so it is indeed tons of TNT
    3. Nothing in the books shows a direct contradiction to the movies. (hell, I could go out on a limb here and probably find an instance where a state of the art fighter was taken out by a single round from a rifle. Or that there are people who have died form a 5mph hiot from a softball. Does that mean all Jets can be taken out by rifles or that all people need to fear slow moving softballs. No, it's a fluke.)
    4. Now, just writers not telling people that the acre of lava created by the hit for the Superstar Destroyer is several hundred meters deep.
     
  8. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,447
    won't help much. a space time distrotion caused my gravity wells effect the movement of matter and EM waves. but unlike EMW matter has inertial mass greater then zero. so if you propel an object close to relativistic speeds this will cause relativistic increse of that mass. since gravitation is allways attractive and in this case both enteties are a source of gravity wells you'd have to adjust your shield in order to complealty deflect the incomig weapon. the faster the object is and the more massive it is, you'd need more intense distortion t change it's path. EMWs on the other hand have 0 inertial mass. they allways move at lightspeed and they do not cause gravity wells. a beam of light can cary 0.1J of energy or 10 trilion GJs of energy and it will stil act the same in relation to the space-time curvature. in esence you can use graviton based shields to simulate lences and mirrors that are 100% efficient. i guess that's why they stated even nav deflectors are enough to stop a laser. intensity is not the issue. the nature of the wepons is. if the nav deflectors protect the ship from the UV-shifted cosmic radiation when a ship goes to wapr, they can safely protect from any EM based threat.
     
  9. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

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    1,447
    1. i never said that imp.ships have research labs. i said labas. the more remote the better.

    2.that's not true. even if not 100% efficient (not possible in the first place) rflective surfaces would be a grat aset to any potential target. even if only 75% gets reflected toy are still better off then taking the whole punch in.

    3.oh but there are. gravitons may be hypothetical but gravitation is not. fact is light (or any other EMW) does not band space. it simply follows it. thus if space bends light bends. any light. no metter how intense. so since this is SF, if you can make a graviton based shield or a warp field you have the ultimate defence against EM based weapons.

    4.don't know about the 4 year old, but it was the argument of the 13 year old when he mixed up mesurments for enegry and power. the profesor did not kindly take his excuse though. he still got a C-

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    .

    5.i did not make this up, i copy-pasted it from Wookipedia.

    6.no, a high powered energy beam would not melt a thing. remeber your link? with the violent vaporisation of ice? for an object to melt you'd neet to aply the energy in controled maner over a paeriod of time. if you aply it in a short intense burst, the object would heet up unevenly, and the rapid(supersonic) energy transfer would cause resonant waves, shatering it. it is note the jules of the nuclear blast that cause the shockwave it is the watts if you get my meaning. and 200GTs is a lot. thta's over 10000 strategic termonuclear strikes. enough to change the global climate.

    7.it is hard to beleave old friend, because if a 6 megaton blast hits a medow, there will be no more medow, a surranding kreak and no forest. you'll make a crater the size of a parking lot and a shockwave that will rase so much dust you won't see a thing. these are the downsides of using high power wepons in atmosphere and the undoing of the SW EU numbers.

    7A. the movies show this tanks hiting soil and grass with small effects (when they miss their intended targets). as noted during posting the screenshots, PzVIa showed more impresive destructivenes back in WWII.
     
  10. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    13,938
    Not at all - this only works when the object is relatively stationary in comparison to the launching orbit. Distort gravity enough, however, and the near-zero mass particles you use to target the ship will be bent in all kinds of crazy directions. The lasers themselves (be they laser or plasma) will react in all sorts of crazy ways (considering each shield generator would have it's own, slightly off-center gravity well) and god help the gravimetric sensors on the ship!
     
  11. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Scotch, conservation of energy says otherwise... there are indeed "free rides" when it comes to defending against energy-based weapons.

    Good example?

    In a cloud of inert gas at near-0 Kelvin (read, vacuum of space temperatures) a beam of light will slow to a crawl and literally FREEZE in place.

    All you'd need to do is fill a low-power force field surrounding the ship with this kind of gas and, upon impact, any photon-based weapon (light based) will come to a halt.

    Was a really cool piece of work I must say - a composite effort between UK, US, and Iceland.
     
  12. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,447
    the problem is you don't want the beams to act crazy, you want them away from your ship, vehicle, whatever. and even microscopic partcles could get real "heavy" if fast enough.
     
  13. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,447
    won't work like that if the photons carry enough energy. the gas wil no longer be 0K. its temperature will rise as result of internal energy of the system rising and the volume staying the same (since restricted by a forcefield).
     
  14. Lord Vasago bcd Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    827
    No-one is offended bro but don't ya think when hundreds of people (different ages, different iQ's, differerent levels of fan-dom) are talking about megaton level weapons that it might slighly be you that is wrong?
    Dude u probably know more about ST then me but think before u make statements
     
  15. Lord Vasago bcd Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    827
    could it not be why in SW they don't use mirrors or chrome because the lasers in SW are infact not the kind of lazer as we know it? I mean that it is not just light.

    Padme's ship (when fleeing Naboo) look pretty shiny to me. So infact it would actually hve to reflect the shots fired at them.

    Same thing whit the tanks fireing. Then blow up stuff butt leave but a scratch on the enviroment. Maybe it where ecoblasts lmao *joke*
    But it could actually mean that the lazers have diferent effects on different materials? Just as phasers do.

    It is infact unlogic that our very own lasers can cut through very dense metal so the lasers of a civilasation 10 000years ahead of us can't do more than that????????????
     
  16. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Crazy is 90% better than aimed at you

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  17. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    No - the forcefield will simply expand as controlled by the computer to keep the volume the same.
     
  18. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    That's not the point - the problem is, at the levels of firepower TWScotch is claiming, i don't care HOW you modify the beam or blast... it would obliterate ANYTHING it hits, target or not.
     
  19. Saquist Banned Banned

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    3,256
    That makes sense, but I've tried this logic before . The 10,000 year old civilization should be far ahed of the most advanced civilization in Star Trek but...I don't know what to call why the GFFA has remained so stagnet on a number of levels.
     
  20. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    Yes, because their firepower and technology has been such a great powerhouse that no one has dared to counter...oh, wait, no it hasn't.



    Not entirely, it won't be all nice and clean, but it won't absorb all of the energy, a deal of it would still be deflected.

    Actually, bending light should work against stopping a laser in most cases...something like a cloak. We also know that in First Contact (the episode, not the movie), that the Enterprise was able to avoid detection...probably via the use of the same method they use to deflect lasers.

    Not that it matters, given the nature of lasers.

    That explains a lot. Care to actually prove your claims then? Or, would you care to explain how, according to Saxton's claims in SW propulsion, that any planet they've ever landed on wouldn't ever needed to be shot at, given the high energy output from said ships?


    Like hell you have, we've seen clearly here that George Lucas said that EU and ICS are not canon. We've posted it a dozen times. Just because Wong will cradle you and say you're right doesn't mean you are. Lucas has denied canon status to EU and ICS. Get over it.

    That their weapons are suddenly 1,000x stronger than they are in any Clone Wars episodes, the canon novels of the movies, or the six movies themselves means nothing to you?

    Because we clearly see a lack of this firepower in Phantom Menace, and the new Clone Wars series gave an episode where a couple of tanks were just out of range...by a few feet and they couldn't get to them because the tanks were too big. If said tanks could toss and take 8 megatons of firepower, Yoda and the Clone butt buddies would have been vaporized in an instant. Even missing them by a literal mile would still kill them.

    By the way, do you know what a megaton is? The bomb we dropped on Japan was about 10 or 11 kilotons. A megaton is a thousand kilotons. You're suggesting that SW tanks use weapons that are 800x stronger than the bomb we dropped on Japan.

    Can you not see the problem here?:bugeye:

    *sigh*

    You don't need megatons for taking out asteroids. Kilotons is just fine. Of course, the amusing part is that in Empire Strikes Back, a TIE fighter hits a asteroid...and nothing happens. It doesn't even visibly burn the rock. I don't even think it slowed the damn thing down.

    And furthermore, even if we did say these figthers had that firepower...a tank would not; it's a surface weapon that should not be armed with the firepower to fuck over an entire island with a range that is unable to exceede a mile at best (Ambush points to much, much smaller ranges).

    Furthermore, Naboo fighters have shown to have next to zero MT level firepower in both lasers (not literal) and torpedoes (it actually seems that the New Hope ones and the Phantom Menace ones are different, so they might actually be stronger, but Shadow of Malevolence points to them not being all that powerful).


    Obi-Wan: Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

    No. You can exaggerate anything. For example, did you know that the Doctor singelhandily defeated Satan? Oh, wait, no he didn't...not in that manner at least; he just broke two vases to release a trap someone else set years ago involving a black hole. See how you can exaggerate?

    And you seem to be the one whose having trouble buddy; you can't accept that ICS isn't canon.

    Yes, the author does indeed claim 200 Gigatons as in the earth stuff.

    But it's all horribly incaccurate.


    You are again, manipulating facts to support your claims. Yes, a jet fighter can probably be taken out by a rifle...if said rifle is strong enough and hits a point on the fighter that causes it to explode...or said person who is hit with the softball has a weak skull or some other condition that makes it lethal.

    The movies are not something you work around, saying "Well, if we were to say that one in the movie has ever said that this firepower doesn't exist, hasn't shown an upper limits, we can say it works, despite the fact that no one has ever used this firepower when it would have been nice and it makes everyone in Star Wars look like a complete and utter idiot, but so what, we can win scifi debates now!

    Wrong.


    If the writer didn't say it happened...then why should we believe it did? Surely some things are glossed over, such as people taking a dump, but when something like BOMBARDING A GOD DAMN PLANET is going on, one might think that TELLING SOMEONE THE EFFECTS OF THE WEAPONS IN USE, would be part of the vital story. By your logic, I can say that Anakin wears spiderman undies...sure it makes no sense, but no one said that spiderman doesn't exist in Star Wars and you don't have proof that he isn't wearing any. That's just how stupid your argument is; relying on no one in canon ever mentioning or using said firepower while demanding that people give overwhelming evidence of incredible yields and firepower.
     
  21. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,149
    Actually SW labs tend to sit in the middle of Black Hole cluster, in the corona of supernova, or orbiting nuetrons stars They tend to exist in place where even the most insane STY dare not go.

    The problem is the smallest imperfection allow massive heating of a small area damaging the miror even more and dust on the surface tends to explosively vaporize damaging the mirors as well.

    True, but if you can create gravity on that level, eg Black Hole levels in an variable energy wall, you are already exerting far more energy than ST has ever shown. We're talking power cores that produce the energy of multiple stars. At that point you would still be better off with more efficent means of protection.

    Alright. We can agree that one one Joule applied over one second equals one watt. However that allso mean one second at one wat is one joule. Nitpicking on how someone states this is not a valid argument.

    for example

    2 joules at one watt would take 2 seconds

    8 joules in one second = 8 watts.

    1500 watts for .2 seconds would be 300 joules.

    I didn't say you made it up. Was just saying then my 12.5 gigaton power level is much too conservative which only ruins ST chances moreso.


    Excuse me, but 200 gigatons is nothing compared to the KT even which barely pushed our globe into a mild ice age.

    Also the explosive shokwave you explain would create work heat, which would indeed melt the area in question. Learn some real physics. Also 200 gigatons hiting a relatively flat surface would shatter nothing. There might be a short geyser of lava as the rock is flash bolied, butthere would be very little shattering. Now if it hit a mountain or basalt monolith, yeah expect some shattering.

    Provided you use an explosive weapon. An energy weapon kick up little dust as it basically vaporizes what it hits. Aso the focal point of the beam is small. And most of the energy is spent trying to move the beam forward.


    WWII tanks shells were most HE. They tend to make nice big bangs. Not the small holes of molten or burnt material and energy weapon would. Or just the deep holes even a moden APDSDU round would make.
     
  22. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    You realize just how fucking stupid that would be...right? To hide a top secret research facility in the middle of a black hole cluster rather than in a perfectly protected area. Also, Voyager escaped from a black hole in her first season. Apparently the magical meeting room allowed them to somehow rape physics by creating a "crack" in the wormhole.

    Yeah.

    In any case, this is easily tossed aside, otherwise one might wonder why the Republic would keep an important medical base out in the open rather than around these oh so dangerous and yet protective areas.

    You do know that Romulans make small blackholes and use them as engines...right?


    Ah yes, conservative. That would explain why thus far none of the Clone Wars episodes agree with you, the novels don't agree with you (specifically stating that the large beam ones...the only ones you would see from orbit...could vaporize a small town, which is about a megaton), and the movies don't agree with you...am I right?


    Then why do they tend to explode on target? Everytime we've seen a weapon hit something, it leaves a small hole with a scorch mark; not a fuming hole full of smoke that makes its way down into the surface of the planet.

    In other words, you're full of bullshit.


    You're rather lying. Using non-canon sources is clearly your last resort and you can't even come up with a viable reason why, other than..."Well, what if blasters and lasers don't work the way we see them in Star Wars? What if they do vaporize the materials, but just keep going rather than exploding like we see them do when they hit something?"

    Don't you think something's wrong when you have to twisted theories about why something works when it clearly doesn't?
     
  23. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

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    4,149
    The Tarkin Instute was hidden in the Maw and collection of super black holes that would rend normal stars aprt in second. Ships could barely plot hyperspace routes through parts of it becuase of area of dead gravity where the two or more blackholes exerted the same amount of gravity in opposite directions. Still two different frieghters surived being within half a million miles of the black holes in real space. Yeah you read that right frighter.

    As for yoyager escapeing a black hole. it barely escaped a singularity field where the singularities were producing only fraction of normal earth gravity. It takes 100% of ships power to take off from a 1G word. There is no way it could survive the Maw. Becuase it would not have the astronomical data SW has on it.

    Medical base. No the Tarkin center was a high energy research facility


    Yes and they can barely contain them. They are artifical constructs and the slightest thing gos wrong and the ship implodes. They also produce far less power than the Antimatter drives of their top speeds would be better. In other words an inefficent experiment on their part.

    Actually a Megaton would not vaporize a small tonw by a long shot. It would knock one down sure, but htere would be debrics left everywhere. And you are wrong about the movies not agreeing. Never once have they fired on anything that we can estimate the power needed to destroy and failed to destroy or vaporize said object. this does mean ship and shields are out of estimation equations as we cannot be sure of the specific heat of Durasteel or Duraarmor.

    Have you seen a single Capital ship weapon fired on a planet on full power? Clone Wars by the way is not considered a movie and is below both the novelizations and any reference books. It should also be of note that all games are dead last in canon.


    Okay you do see the initla explosion of the impact, but this is a small fraction of the power involved. If the object is too large or sturdy to break apart with the energy of the weapon. You make see large chunks blown out of walls like in ANH, you may see long tear marks in metal walls ala ANH, you may see harded walls of a mining facility riddles with holes ala ESB. You may see tree have the bark blown off them by a near miss. All this with the low power hand weapons.
     
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